Adventure Time. Piece by piece CRT

[Goodyfresh]

@Goody Glad we are on a similar page. Would you mind also telling me what you think about it beeing "implausibe" that Charlie can grow larger than Jake or Warren/ that she has a different ability/ that she uses it in a completely different way, since I belive that is kinda the biggest issue here

I don't see how it's implausible that she can grow larger than them. There is a real phenomenon in genetics called "hybrid vigor," where a cross-breed between two individuals with vastly different genetics will result in a hybrid with better, stronger traits than either parent. This is the reason why mutts tend to be healthier than purebred dogs. Based on that, it seems extremely plausible to me that a Rainicorn/Dog/Shapeshifter hybrid would have more potential than just a Dog/Shapeshifter hybrid or a Shapeshifter on its own. It is like the situation with Saiyan/Human hybrids. Hybrid vigor could especially apply to a situation like this one, since Shapeshifter abilities are biological (not magical) in nature, while Rainicorn abilities are magical in nature. So the hybrid of these very different species could result in a magical/biological hybrid-superpower potentially superior to the powers of either parent.

Here's the Wikipedia page on the phenomenon of hybrid vigor, aka "heterosis": Heterosis on Wikipedia

I myself always just assumed that this real-world phenomenon is precisely the reason why Saiyan/Human hybrids in DB have so much potential. Well, that and the fact that Saiyan evolution is clearly Lamarckian in nature, meaning that strengths which a parent obtains through training end up somehow being genetically passed down to offspring. Hybrid vigor tends to occur most commonly when one or both parent species don't have much genetic diversity, and are possibly somewhat inbred. That seems to be the case with Saiyans, as the species overall seems to have far less genetic/ethnic diversity than humans, and have quite possibly become inbred in the past due to selective breeding for strength. Thus, breeding with humans could have introduced a level of genetic diversity into the Saiyan genome that hasn't been seen in many generations. Only bringing this up of course because you guys were discussing saiyan/human hybrids, lol.

 

[RatherClueless]

alright thx

 

[Goodyfresh]

alright thx

You're welcome, glad I was able to help with that thanks to being such a nerd who knows so much scientific trivia XD Lmao

 

[RatherClueless]

well, I asked Darkanaine if he wanted to talk about this too, a couple of days ago, but I guess he got sick of me didnt see it or doesnt care anymore. This is good and bad news. Bad news, because he is kinda the authority on most of these things. Good news, because everytime he comments my very first thought is this

 

[Goodyfresh]

well, I asked Darkanaine if he wanted to talk about this too, a couple of days ago, but I guess he got sick of me didnt see it or doesnt care anymore. This is good and bad news. Bad news, because he is kinda the authority on most of these things. Good news, because everytime he comments my very first thought is this

LMAO, that's hilarious man.

Ya know, just to expand a tiny bit on what I said about the phenomenon of hybrid vigor:

It's interesting to note that hybrid-vigor is a very good example of the phenomenon of "truth in fiction." There are MANY examples of fictional "hybrid" characters who are more powerful or have more potential than either parent. Besides the Pups from A.T. and the Saiyan/Human hybrids from DB, another very good example is the character Raven from DC Comics and the Teen Titans cartoon series: She is the daughter of an incredibly evil God-Tier (At Least Large Planet Tier in the show, and Multi-Universe Tier in the Post-Crisis comics) interdimensional demon named Trigon, and a weak-ass ordinary human mother. And yet, at her absolute peak under the right conditions, her powers actually SURPASS those of her father Trigon.

There are MANY examples in fiction of "hybrids" who surpass either of their parents in power, versatility, hax, etc. And in this particular case, the trope in question actually has a basis in real-life genetics. Pretty neat, right?

Okay, now to get back on topic and only talk about A.T. power-scaling, lmao.

 

[RatherClueless]

Glad to have someone who can put my thoughts/gibberish into actual words haha. Its quite different to argue in a foreign language, even if you have lived in the US for an entire year xD

 

[RatherClueless]

Okay, now to get back on topic and only talk about A.T. power-scaling, lmao.

Any point of this CRT in particular? Just choose one we didnt really talk about/didnt come to a conclusion/you disagree with (or for all I care one you agree with and why)

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

So what are your conclusions about the current statistics? Should they be changed from tier 2 to tier 5?

 

[RatherClueless]

Me, Ultima and Goody agree that the low 2-C doesnt make any sence and shouldnt have been applied in the first place. The Tier 5 rateings themelf, in many cases atleast, are things that are still debated/open for debate. Thats atleast how I interpret the current situation. No clue about Js' stands on almost anything though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Me, Ultima and Goody agree that the low 2-C doesnt make any sence and shouldnt have been applied in the first place. The Tier 5 rateings themelf, in many cases atleast, are things that are still debated/open for debate. Thats atleast how I interpret the current situation. No clue about Js' stands on almost anything though.

I second everything here, Antvasima, RatherClueless is interpreting the situation correctly at least when it comes to my opinions. Every AT character who is currently Tier 2, with the obvious exceptoin of cosmic entities like Prismo and Golb who are undisputedly Tier 2, should at the very least be downgraded to Tier 5.

In terms of the characters to be downgraded, RatherClueless, let's make sure not to forget Hunson Abadeer among them, as for some reason he is currently Low 2-C on here.

Tier 5 is still very debatable, so I agree with that statement as well. I think that at the very least, the top-tiers are High 6-A, due to Martin's ship not killing Glob while also scaling (via statements of it having K-E comparable to a Catalyst Comet) to the Lich-meteor and to the Catalyst Comet which is implied to be the reason why a big chunk is missing from the planet. These characters being at least High 6-A is also consistent with Orgalorg being called "The Breaker of Worlds." But whether they are actually Tier 5 or not is still super-duper debatable.

To make my opinion more clear: The only rating I am currently 100% comfortable with giving to the top-tiers is High 6-A.

 

[RatherClueless]

Isn't that piece of the planet missing because of the mushroom bomb? Did I misunderstand that this entire time? Oof!

 

[Js250476]

It was from the bomb yes

The only one might scale to the explosion is Patience St Pim because she created an ice barrier that tanked the explosion while he powers were limited ( and by proxy anyone that scales to her)

Unless Lich being a previous incarnation of the comet counts and he originated from the bomb but that's not really scale worthy reasons.

 

[RatherClueless]

About Abadeer. He is just one of many victims of weird scaleing. Once we are done with this the truly painfull part will beginn. If you want a taste of it, just look at Finn's profile and some of the things he scales to. One of them is something like: "low 2-C dura, scales to Flame Queen", while FP doesn't even have a low 2-C key

 

[Goodyfresh]

No, the mushroom bomb did not take that giant chunk out of the planet, as we saw the immediate aftermath of the bomb going off in Farmworld Reality and all it did to the planet's surface was create a giant lake of toxic magical mutagenic green goo. It did not visibly annihilate any kind of huge portion of the landscape around it, let alone something as big as the chunk that we see missing from the planet in the present day.

Most fans who have analyzed this matter are of the consensus that it was the last Catalyst Comet 1000 years ago that took the chunk out of the planet. In various shots from the time of the Mushroom War, it was seen that there was a comet (I believe it was a blue one, which means it MIGHT have been the same comet that was later reincarnated as a butterfly, a weird alien blob, Shoko, and Finn) heading towards the planet at that time, which most likely impacted very shortly after the time when the Mushroom Bomb went off. However, we do not have any definitive prove of this, of course. What we do know is that Ice King/Simon had a drawing of an intact Earth with a giant comet heading towards it.

Edit: On the other hand, there have also been contradictory indications in the show that the crater was caused by something during the Mushroom War. The Founders' Song seemed to imply this, for example. It is possible, however, that the decendants of humans merely BELIEVED the Mushroom War to be responsible for the crater. As I said, we got to see the actual effects of the Mushroom Bomb in the Farmworld Reality, and it didn't do anything that drastic to the Earth's surface.

 

[RatherClueless]

Patience was shown to be very far away from the blast, so scaleing that might be iffy. If we were to scale the Lich to the bomb, we would need to scale Finn to a butterfly, so I highly doubt that works haha.

 

[Js250476]

Tbf in Farmworld the Mushroom Bomb was frozen for 1000 years and detonated extremely late unlike the main timeline that's likely the explanation for the blast being significantly weaker

And correct me if I'm wrong but I thought most things in the show point to the mushroom war for the crater which was started by the bomb

 

[Goodyfresh]

Patience was shown to be very far away from the blast, so scaleing that might be iffy.
If we were to scale the Lich to the bomb, we would need to scale Finn to a butterfly, so I highly doubt that works haha.

See my post above. The Mushroom Bomb is most definitely not what caushed the giant chunk missing from the Earth, as it didn't do anything like that to the Earth when it went off in the Farmworld Reality. The only explanation for the giant crater that seems truly likely, is that it was caused by the last Catalyst Comet. Because none of the weapons used in the Mushroom War besides the Mushroom Bomb would have had the power to do something that major to the planet, since they would have been comparable to the nuclear weapons possessed by modern humans. While it is true that the Founders' Song implies that the Mushroom War caused the damage to the Earth, it has also been 1000 years since then and it is highly likely that their account of history has been distorted. Since it seems that the last Catalyst Comet impacted at RIGHT AROUND THE SAME TIME as the end of the Mushroom War, it makes sense that the survivors of humanity would have mis-attributed the giant crater to the Mushroom Bomb rather than to its true cause, the Comet.

Edit: I suppose this is debatable. But I see no reason to think that the bomb was "weakened" in the Farmworld Reality as a result of being frozen. Ice King's freezing has been shown multiple times to basically work as suspended-animation/stasis, keeping things frozen in a completely static and unchanging state.

 

[RatherClueless]

@Goody So you are saying: who knows how it got there, it at least wasn't the bomb. Is that about right?

 

[Goodyfresh]

@Goody So you are saying: who knows how it got there, it at least wasn't the bomb. Is that about right?

Pretty much, yeah. It is likely that the survivors of humanity simply mis-attributed the cause of the crater to the Mushroom War/Bomb, because they weren't aware of the existence of Catalyst Comets and thus the only thing they could think of that could have caused the crater would be the War. Also, the last comet impacted right around the time of the end of the War, so if the Comet was in fact what caused the crater, then that would explain the survivors of humanity mis-attributing the cause. If a giant chunk appeared missing from the Earth at almost exactly the same time as that a horrific mutagenic bomb went off that mutated the world, the natural reaction of most of humanity would be to mistakenly think "I bet it was the bomb that made that crater." Thus, the Founders' song attributing the damage to Earth to the Mushroom War.

@JS250476 The reason most things in the show point to the crater being caused by the war/bomb, is because the crater appeared around the same time the bomb went off. That's my point here. That doesn't mean it was the bomb that caused the crater though, it simply means that people THINK the bomb is what caused the crater. Keep in mind that we know for a fact that the last Comet impacted at almost exactly the same time as the end of the war. Again, when the bomb went off in Farmworld, it had almost no noticable effect on the landscape. The only effect on the landscape was the creation of a lake of toxic goo.

Further evidence: The Lich's Lair, in the main timeline/reality, is known with 100% certainty to be ground-zero where the bomb went off. THIS IS NOT THE LOCATION OF THE CRATER. The giant crater is not even in/around the continent/island of Ooo. If it was in fact the bomb that caused the crater, then how could the crater be so far away from the Lich's lair, which was ground-zero for the bomb?

 

[RatherClueless]

Well, I doubt the crater comes from the comet though. If one impact was that massive, how is earth still there if it gets hit by one of those every 1000 years!? Do the comets always hit the same spot, making it deeper and deeper?

 

[Js250476]

To comment real quick Darkanine has been less active in general here but it's most likely cause he's busy/can't comment atm he's not the type of guy to intentionally ignore something as important as this for a series he knows very well

I'm sure he'll be here eventually we just gotta be patient

 

[RatherClueless]

Alright I can wait. Wasn't planning on making any changes without him commenting anyways (I would have told him, if we were about to change the profiles)

 

[Js250476]

About the Catalyst Comet there supposed to be some cosmic bringers of great change to the world but that change isn't necessarily always about destruction for example the Lich comet was heavily Implied to be the meteor which wiped out the dinosaurs but Finns blue comet likely just brought an unknown change that brought what would eventually become Finn ( remember the comet itself says it's embodied all that is good and evil.)

 

[Goodyfresh]

Well, I doubt the crater comes from the comet though. If one impact was that massive, how is earth still there if it gets hit by one of those every 1000 years!? Do the comets always hit the same spot, making it deeper and deeper?

Well, the Catalyst comet is different every time. It had a cataclysmic effect on the Earth when the Lich-comet hit 65 million years ago. Other times, it has had a non-cataclysmic effect. Clearly, the effects of each comet are different from the effects of the previous comets. This is due to the Comets' nature as "bringers of change," of course their effects would be different each and every time.

My suspicion is this: The Catalyst Comet of 1000 years ago impacted very shortly after the Mushroom Bomb went off. Most likely, the Catalyst Comet had a cataclysmic effect on the Earth's surface because it was "necessary" to offset some aspect or portion of the War/Bomb's effects, in a way that will never be made clear or explained to us.

Bottom line is, we know where ground-zero was for the Bomb Explosion: The Lich's Lair. The place where Farmworld Marcy was at with the frozen bomb in that timeline, was clearly the same abandoned subway-station as the Lich's Lair. And the Lich's Lair, in the main timeline, is nowhere near the location of the giant crater, as the giant crater isn't even anywhere close to the Land of Ooo. The bomb could not possibly have been the cause of the crater, because if it was, the entire Land of Ooo would be inside the crater as a result of being the continent where the Lich's Lair is located.

By the way, I laughed my ass off when you mentioned that scaling Lich to a comet would be like scaling Finn to a butterfly. Don't go underestimating butterflies, man! Butterflies were Finn's astral-beast, remember? He summoned them one time and they beat up Ice King for him. Lmao.

 

[RatherClueless]

Shouldn't they have similar impact values though? They appear to be very similar in size, speed, etc. If not, my argument with Glob and the spaceship doesn't even really work anymore.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Shouldn't they have similar impact values though? They appear to be very similar in size, speed, etc.

Maaaan, the Comets are magical reality-warping bringers-of-change of a tier of up to Low 2-C, capable of merging themselves and others with all of spacetime and reality. I'm pretty sure it's pointless to try to apply our petty human logic regarding kinetic-energy values to something like that, lmao. We know for a fact from what we saw of the Purple Comet, that the comets are intelligent/sapient. They can almost certainly choose what effect they have on the Earth's surface at the moment of impact. The effect they choose to have is whatever "necessary change" is needed at that time.

Nah, the argument with Glob and the spaceship definitely still works, because everybody on Mars seemed to think that it had enough kinetic-energy to wipe out the entire surface and everyone on it. Its kinetic-energy should be equal to any of hte Catalyst Comets. My point above is that just because one of the comets has enough K-E to have a High 6-A effect, doesn't mean it can't choose to negate that K-E at the moment of impact, and have a different effect instead, using its powers.

 

[RatherClueless]

Just edited my comment

 

[Goodyfresh]

Just edited my comment

And I just edited mine, lol we both seem to have a habit of doing that sometimes.

Look at the edits to my post just above and you will see my explanation of why the Glob/spaceship scaling feat should still be valid. Everybody on Mars seemed absolutely positive that the kinetic-energy of the impact was going to be enough to wipe out the entire surface, that's why they were all in a panic that they were all going to die and there was nothing they could do about it. And just because a catalyst-comet has a High 6-A kinetic-energy, doesn't mean it can't use its Low 2-C reality-warping powers to negate that K-E at the moment of impact.

 

[RatherClueless]

Yeah, I think that's fine then. How big is the martian city though? Compared to Mars it's massive, looking at its infrastructure within the dome, it's just a regular sized city.

 

[Js250476]

I kinda Ninja'd ya about the nature of the comets lol

 

[Goodyfresh]

Yeah, I think that's fine then. How big is the martian city though? Compared to Mars it's massive, looking at its infrastructure within the dome, it's just a regular sized city.

Was the ship necessarily going to impact right on top of the city, though? If it was established that it was, then feel free to correct me on this. But I think the point was that it was going to wipe out all the martians REGARDLESS of where on the surface it impacted. Meaning it was going to wipe out the entire surface. Which would be consistent with it having K-E comparable to the Catalyst Comets.

Yeah I just don't think it's appropriate to try to apply human logic or physics to try to understand the effect the Catalyst Comet impacts can have, given that they are fully-sentient Tier 2 reality-warpers. Lol. They seemingly DO have High 6-A kinetic-energy, but that doesn't mean they will actually cause any damage upon impact, as that depends upon their intentions.

But dude. Don't underestimate butterflies! Butterflies can defeat the Ice King! Okay? Lmaooooo. Man, I love how silly this show was, I really freaking miss it. "Astral beast, coooome to meeeee!" And then it's just a swarm of butterflies. But then at the same time that turned out to have real significance, as we found out later that Finn was a butterfly in a past life, which would explain why butterflies are his astral beast.

@JS250476 Yup, ya totally ninja'd me, lol. Stuff like this wouldn't happen if I wasn't constantly going back and making extensive edits to my posts, lol.

 

[RatherClueless]

I just quickly ran some vague numbers. Assuming the ship was a 10*10*10m block of steel traveling at 36km/s (the assumed speed for the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs), we'd be talking about 5*10^15J or small city level...

I also realized that I messed up the tnt and joules chart. 100trillion tons of tnt is actually closer to large island or small country level (this is awkward...)

 

[Js250476]

@Goodyfish it happens man I get it although I didn't notice these edits til I look at the posts again some time later.

 

[Goodyfresh]

I just quickly ran some vague numbers. Assuming the ship was a 10*10*10m block of steel traveling at 36km/s (the assumed speed for the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs), we'd be talking about 5*10^15J or small city level...
I also realized that I messed up the tnt and joules chart. 100trillion tons of tnt is actually closer to large island or small country level (this is awkward...)

That ship was traveling interplanetary distances. Pretty sure it was traveling at Relativistic or Relativistic+ speeds. I still think it seemed to be implied that it was going to wipe out the entire surface of Mars, and had actual kinetic-energy on par with the Comets. That being said. . . .it's interesting to note that Small City Level is the same ballpark as Flame Queen's eruption. . . .which certainly seems like an interesting coincidence.

Now the question is: Are the top-tiers 7-B, or High 6-A, or 5-C, or 5-A? Those seem to be the four possible choices we have to pick from. That's a very wide spread of possible values. Before you jump to conclusions and say Tier 7, though, consider the following:

There's something else I thought of that should come into play here that lends credence to the idea of Tier 5 Adventure Time scaling from the Nameless Alien: Orgalorg, Hunson, Lich, and the other Primordial Monsters should NOT be any less powerful than the Nameless Alien. Think about it: The Primordial Monsters are supposed to be the most powerful evil entities in all of creation with the exception of beings like Golb. It would make absolutely no sense, in the context of the series' mythology and lore, for some random alien with five seconds of screen-time to be far more powerful than the Primordial Monsters are.

I mean, think how little sense it would make for "The Breaker of Worlds," "The Last Scholar of Golb," and "The Lord of the Nightosphere" to somehow be many orders of magnitude weaker than some totally-rando alien who didn't even get a name. Lol. Also, at least The Lich and Hunson are both implied on a few occasions to scale to Death himself, and there is NO FREAKING WAY that the actual grim-freaking-reaper is somehow weaker than a random nameless alien. Lmao. We SAW a totally random no-name perform a Tier 5 feat, so I would assume that "The Breaker of Worlds" is probably itself capable of planetary feats.

 

[RatherClueless]

Completely ignoring that I don't think that the Lich is (physically) even close to Hunsor or Orgalorg, I have always seen the primordials within the tier 6 range (6-B to 6-A) and bottom tier character like Finn (yes I said it, Finn is very weak compared to many opponents he fights), putting him at mid tier 8 up to possibly mid tier 7. The alien was called one of the worst beeings in the universe, by someone like Prismo. The alien not being relevant to the story=it being weaker than some of the primordials. Being a primordial shouldn't grant a certain key anyways, at least not without any feats.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Completely ignoring that I don't think that the Lich is (physically) even close to Hunsor or Orgalorg, I have always seen the primordials within the tier 6 range (6-B to 6-A) and bottom tier character like Finn (yes I said it, Finn is very weak compared to many opponents he fights), putting him at mid tier 8 up to possibly mid tier 7. The alien was called one of the worst beeings in the universe, by someone like Prismo. The alien not being relevant to the story=it being weaker than some of the primordials. Being a primordial shouldn't grant a certain key anyways, at least not without any feats.

Hm. I will admit these seem like valid points. However, I don't think Finn is as weak as you think compared to the top-tiers. The Grass Arm was able to chop up Orgalorg, and we clearly saw that in the final seasons, Finn was at least somewhat comparable to the likes of Fer (yes, Fern was stronger, but Finn could at least somewhat hold his own even when Fern was bloodlusted), and Fern is obviously the same tier that the Grass Arm was. Meaning that Finn from the final couple seasons is at least somewhat comparable to the likes of Orgalorg, however crazy that may sound given that he is just a human with a robot arm. Finn is no ordinary human though, anyway: He is the reincarnation of the Blue Comet, and that may have something to do with his seemingly inhuman potential.

Also, don't forget that even early Season 1 Finn, at 12 years old, was able to punch Marceline (while in her giant bat form) so freaking hard that she admitted it actually hurt a little and it left a very slight visible bruise on her cheek before healing. That is REALLY impressive, because even early-series Marcy was very high-tier in this verse, and Finn has gotten much, much stronger since that time. End-of-series Finn should, at the very least, be comparable or stronger than Pre-Stakes Marceline, considering he has no doubt gotten at least dozens of times stronger than he was at 12 years old. If at 12 years old he could bruise her face, then by 17 he should be at least as strong as she was pre-Stakes, though still nowhere near her level after she absorbed the Vampire King.

I tend to think that given we were shown some Nameless Alien performing a Tier-5 (or AT LEAST High 6-A, if the planet was as small as possible to still be able to have a liquid mantle and outer core) feat, this basically tells us "characters in this series can be planet-breaking tier." Thus, when they introduce a character LITERALLY called "The Breaker of Worlds," I am inclined to think that he is, in fact, capable of breaking worlds, since we know that such feats are possible for non-cosmic beings in the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

@Goodyfresh

Can you stop typing in all caps please?

@Ultima Reality

I would very much appreciate if you could properly organise this revision, by setting up a structure for how the profiles should be updated.

 

[RatherClueless]

@Goody Thats why I gave Finn such a wide range. Grass sword Finn for example is far stronger than just base Finn. Finn hurting Marceline is impressive, but I never saw her on the same level as someone like her dad anyways (she made it pretty clear that her dad is stronger than her). Pre-stakes arc Marceline is a Marceline that had the VK absorbed, isnt it? Also, even though Finn got way stronger, Marceline was always depicted to be stronger (like in the episode "Red Starved" in the fith season) than Finn, aswell as Jake and Jake>>>>Finn.

Orgralorg being planetary has just one realy bad taste in my mouth and if its just the fact that he cant even get close to an earth sized planet, without the graity completely crushing him. In all of the flashbacks however, he was totally fine on the planets shown (for example when he throws that rock), makeing me belive that the planets he terrorized thus far were quite a bit smaller and if anything more into the 6-A, possibly (very) low 5-C region of things. IIRC he actually needed to almost completely leave earths athmosphere to get back to full size, just showing how badly he can handle gravity.

The nameless alien was most likely used to show the strenght/cruelty of citadel inmates, rather than raseing the bar for Orgalorg anyways. The fact that someone who litterally runs around brakeing worlds should be confined in the citadel themselfs anyways. Even if one was to argue that they didnt chatch him, because he was to powerfull, I doubt they would have had an issue catching Gunther lol.

Also, giving someone more or less featless such a high rateing becuase of a rando alien seems iffy in itself. Especially since there is no connection between the two of them. Besides that, he was more so depicted tyrannizeing the solarsystem, rather than going from planet to planet, blowing them up. This is also where the title comes from. I f something like that happened to me, I'd probably also give him a title like that lol

About wether or not Martins ship would have crashed into the city. Yes it would have, since Glob flies straight at it. It would also take sub relativistic speeds for 6-A, and Relativistic+ speeds for tier 5 (which seems unreasonable, considdering he was heading straight for Mars and probably didnt want to crash himself)

On a different note, why are the Lich and Orgalorg considered to be primordials anyways? Isnt the definition of a primordial to come from the void before time? Neither Orgalorg, nor the Lich have anything suggesting that that applies to them, but them being "pretty damn old". Did I just miss something very important?

 

[RatherClueless]

Anyways, we should propably go over all the points and see what are things we can/cant agree on and try to see where we still have open debates and where not/makeing sure we are all at least somewhat on the same page of things. I should probably go and bump that message I send to Darkanine, just in case he didnt see it.