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Addressing Roshi's Feat

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SomebodyData

SomebodyData

El SiD
VS Battles
Joke Battles
Retired
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Requested by others to be staff only- but will be listening to arguments if you send it through PM. Unfortunately, I'm actually rather busy this week but people are getting impatient, I'll have to be mostly hands-off on the thread.
We had a recent thread on the topic, but the rule regarding stuffing CRTs made it go to waste.

As a community, the split really appears to be between older staff and our members. Obviously, that's just my perspective on the ordeal of course. But I think it explains why it's difficult to accept the revisions for some staff- we've been so used to seeing the 5-C feat as an outlier that changing it seems inaccurate. However, as new arguments are presented, and overwhelming evidence, I hope to change that around.

I've made a list of reasons why I believe in Roshi's feat to not be an outlier before, but it's been updated from the last couple of threads.

Issues of scaling Dragon Ball based on King Piccolo's 7-B feat:
  • Considers Master Roshi's 5-C feat an outlier. Of course.
  • Considers King Piccolo's own 6-B - High 6-A statement an outlier. Note this is not the 'destroying the world' statement, but what King Piccolo planned to do as a tyrant.
    • It was explicitly stated to be instantaneous for each region, something that was overshadowed in a few responses last thread.
  • Considers Master Roshi's accidental 7-B feat the maximum of his power? Which, given is only 3x smaller than King Piccolo's feat, means Roshi is actually comparable to him.
  • Considers King Piccolo's first (Not the one through an energy beam that we are currently scaling based upon) casual 7-B feat an outlier, which was done by merely waving his hand. This does not look like the face of someone who was tired out of a 7-B attack.
  • Contrary to what was stated to the previous thread, MAX POWER Roshi being 5-C would only scale to King Piccolo and stronger characters - Roshi never went MAX POWER against Tien, so there are no scaling issues or breaking of the plot. Even if we scale Base Roshi for some reason, that would only add Tien and Kid Goku, again no breaking of the plot.
  • Ignores that Piccolo Jr. Saga Goku's Super Kamehameha has a PL of 910 (Weekly Jump #31, 1991), where Early Dragon Ball Z Goku only has a power level of 416.
    • Power levels may be popularly referred to as "BS" within the community, but never have they been shown to be wrong when it comes to which is overall stronger or weaker.
  • There are also some Daizenchuu statements here and there, but as it's overall inconsistent, I decided not to bring them up.
    Kami's Moon Feat: By now, I think most know about the discussions of the Moon feat. After discussing it with another staff member, it seems confirming the feat is another route to prove Roshi's feat isn't an outlier.
Issues from the 5-C Feat:
  • Considers King Piccolo's 7-B feat an outlier, if not AoE control, considering he already committed the same feat a couple of chapters ago (See his casual 7-B feat above).
Summary:
There exist 3 5-C feats, one by Roshi and if we're conservative, one by Shenron and one by Kami-though most likely both by Kami. King Piccolo alone has another casual 7-B feat that proves his attack against Goku isn't limited to city level and states himself that he is capable at least 6-B to High 6-A feats. By all accounts, 5-C Roshi is not an outlier.

Count:
  • Support:
    • Qawsedf234 (However argues Max Roshi only scales to himself, with KP as tier 6 and Kami tier 5).
    • Dragonmasterxyz (Alright with "At least 7-B, Possibly 5-C" as well)
    • Warren Valion
    • The Real Cal Howard
    • Super Saiyan God Julian
    • Antvasima
    • Elizhaa
    • Eficiente
    • Shadowbokunohero
    • DemonGodMitchAubin
    • TISSG7Redgrave (Alright with "At least 7-B, Possibly 5-C" as well)
    • GyroNutz (Alright with "At least 7-B, Possibly 5-C" as well)
  • Against:
  • At least 7-B, possibly 5-C:
    • LordGriffin1000
    • Damage3245
    • Matthew Schroeder
  • Neutral:
    • DDM
    • Wokistan
    • Dargoo Faust
    • Crabwhale
    • AKM sama
    • Dino Ranger Black (?)
 
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absolutely not
 
Now, I may not be an scientist, but from what I am gathering from the two words that user Mr._Bambu, admin of the newly formed vsbattles.com, has just recently used. I am assuming it was sarcasm
 
I tried to stay outta of this given I've distanced myself from Dragon Ball almost as a whole.

I understand both sides to some degree I've been watching this debate on if we should or shouldn't accept moon level Dragon Ball almost every time it's been brought up. My question is what would be the issue with an At least 7-B, possibly 5-C?. We have the possibly rating for a reason do we not?.
 
Personally speaking, I wouldn't consider the Moon Feat an outlier. However it also doesn't scale to anyone, since the kamehameha is canonically a PL boost stacked ontop of MAX's power boost. Since Roshi never used both against KP, KP wouldn't scale to it.

Low 6-B/6-B King Piccolo (43 regions presumably doesn't include that massive amount of oceans the DB world has) is fine imo.

Kami I really have no option on. If we do keep it then it would make 23rd WMAT Goku and Piccolo 5-C as well.
 
This is bound to be a ******* shitstorm like last time (kinda glad I didn't know that entire thing was happening until a week after it was over) but whatever. Roshi's feat should have long been accepted in my eyes, so I am tossing my agreement for it being legitimate. I am not gonna comment on how terribly we handled the last ******* thread though, pretty sure most people already know (I also don't personally care for this being Staff Only, but I'll get nowhere arguing that).
 
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I'd rather wait for more replies as I feel like I'm one of the few more neutral staff. But I'm not looking forward to the shitstorm regardless.

But, I disagree with Qawsed. If we're going to accept Moon level Roshi, we have to scale it to King Piccolo and those above him. Roshi himself admits it would do nothing to Piccolo, and he had to use Mafuba which killed Roshi. King Piccolo is definitely above whatever Roshi's best acceptable feat is. I will also bring up some other potiential counter arguments later assuming no one else does yet. But either way, I forgot to mention that Tien Shinhan will also need some upgrade too regardless; he's actually officially as strong, if not stronger than Max Power Roshi after new info got brought up.
 
I have surface-level opinions on the matter, however I am not knowledgeable enough on Dragon Ball to make sweeping claims on whether or not a feat is consistent - I can only really look at the feat and go from there. It would be unprofessional of me to accept or reject this if I am unable to debate the topic myself.

Looking at the feat in isolation, though, it's very odd that Roshi's feat is labelled as 5-C when extremely popular calculation methods place moon-bust-in-single-attack feats with far less extensive damage (heck, isn't the Naruto feat for a hollow Moon, at that?) much higher into Tier 5 due to the ejection of mass from the planet at relativistic speeds. I can do a very quick calculation of the feat if it would help this thread out.
 
Outlier in general means inconsistency; a 7-B noncasual low end feat can be called an outlier if there's multiple Tier 5 feats. Though, we usually say PIS instead of outlier in that context.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Outlier in general means inconsistency; a 7-B noncasual low end feat can be called an outlier if there's multiple Tier 5 feats. Though, we usually say PIS instead of outlier in that context.
Click to expand...
Yes - but it seems like it is in the wrong section in the arguments in the OP.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
Looking at the feat in isolation, though, it's very odd that Roshi's feat is labelled as 5-C
Click to expand...
The main reason is that its not mass ejection/KE. The moon is just gone. Because there's no rapidly moving mass there's no KE number that can be gotten, which is why its labeled lower than the Naruto thing for example.
 
I'm on board with dargoo for this one. I don't do dragon ball vs debating, can't really evaluate this right without reading dragon ball, which I don't plan on doing.

It may be a no timeframe thing. 5-Cs the default but fiction makes the chunks fly away at super fast speeds all the time.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The main reason is that its not mass ejection/KE. The moon is just gone. Because there's no rapidly moving mass there's no KE number that can be gotten, which is why its labeled lower than the Naruto thing for example.
Click to expand...
Still, pulverizing the moon to the point where it isn't even visible seems far above baseline 5-C, even if that's the case.
 
I remember subbing in the pulv value for earth actually getting lower than its GBE, so that may not actually be right about it being higher.
 
Wouldn't you also need to overcome GBE even if you pulverized the moon and it just ceases to be there, otherwise the pulverized bits would just coalesce back into well, the moon?
 
I know that completely vaporizing the Earth is only 1.05x above overcoming the GBE. Pulverizing or Vaporizing the moon won't get you anything above 5-C, because there's no KE to it. KE is what makes various moon or planet busts higher Tier 5 or 4. Not actually destroying them.
Wouldn't you also need to overcome GBE even if you pulverized the moon and it just ceases to be there, otherwise the pulverized bits would just coalesce back into well, the moon?
Click to expand...

Not really. It would takes an extremely long time for them to come back together. The thing is that they would eventually come back together. Overcoming the GBE means that won't happen without something else effecting the debris.
 
Not sure if this is on topic, but actually; KLOL mentioned another method. Take the mass of the moon, then use the escape velocity of the moon 2380 m/s. And plug that into a KE calculator. The result is 2.0794E+29 J which not a huge difference, but at least it's above baseline.
 
I agree with this as long as you figure out good ways to make the resulting statistics scaling chains consistent and logical.

I would also like to apologise to our community for mismanaging the previous thread. I was extremely overworked and distracted by managing many different tasks at the time, and had the impression that the discussion thread in question was too incoherent and chaotic to continue, so I turned too impatient.
 
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@DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234

So, wouldn't it be ideal to add together these values (escape velocity and pulverization/vaporization), since both would be required to permanently reduce the Moon to a state where it's irreversibly not visible anymore?
 
Why would we use that? The moon isn't on earth, and calcs for pushing the moon out of its orbit have ended up High 6-A.
 
@Damage3245 sorry, should have been more specific, it's because King Piccolo has another city-destroying feat that he did with only the wave of his hand.

Currently, we're scaling off his second 7-B feat which left him drained of energy.
 
SomebodyData said:
@Damage3245 sorry, should have been more specific, it's because King Piccolo has another city-destroying feat that he did with only the wave of his hand.

Currently, we're scaling off his second 7-B feat which left him drained of energy.
Click to expand...

Gotcha - but Piccolo having one 7-B feat doesn't mean that another 7-B feat is an outlier.
 
I used to be actively against Moon level Roshi but ever since I saw Somebody's points for it a few months ago, I am all for it. It is frankly impressive how a bullet point list completely changed my mind - so nice job.

With that said, I am in 100% agreement for Moon Level Roshi (or whatever the calc would be, IDK, calcs are ******* weird man). I won't be able to argue for anything however, far too busy with other threads and IRL school stuff.
 
@Damage3245 well the current reasoning for the outlier hinges on the idea that King Piccolo uses most of his energy pulling off a 7-B attack- so doing the same feat with just the wave of a hand completely goes against it.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
So, wouldn't it be ideal to add together these values (escape velocity and pulverization/vaporization), since both would be required to permanently reduce the Moon to a state where it's irreversibly not visible anymore?
Click to expand...
Vaporization would be the most accurate I believe, rather than escape velocity and vaporization.
 
Yeah fine with moon Roshi. Simple as that. Fully expecting the backlash. This does scale to King Piccolo and Goku at the end of that arc, given Roshi died fighting KP (if he could’ve beaten him, he would’ve), as well as the Piccolo Jr saga people due to being stronger than KP. It does not, however, scale to Red Ribbon and 22nd Budokai saga characters.
 
Isn't it possible that Roshi didn't think he could safely perform a Moon-vaporizing blast against someone at much closer range, on the Earth? Ki control is a thing, yes, but Roshi already lost control once by vaporizing an entire mountain when he didn't mean to.

So it's possible he could have used the Max Power Kamehameha against Piccolo but didn't because it would nuke the world.
 
The thing is he didn’t even use his buff form at all, let alone the max power Kamehameha. The only way Roshi thought would work was the Mafuba.
 
I feel like this would require a few more assumptions than him just assuming the Kamehameha wouldn't work considering we would need more evidence to support him being scared to let loose such a blast up close. And I don't think him accidently blowing up a mountain is enough for this specific situation.
 
Yeah, I do agree with Somebody's points. 5-C Roshi ain't an outlier. It's also possible the energy value of the attack could be higher due to the moon being seemingly completely vaporized in the attack. I was gonna say this in the previous thread but it got closed before I could say anything else.

I think either a rating of "At least 7-B, possibly 5-C" or just outright "5-C" is okay in this situation.
 
Super_Saiyan_God_Julian said:
Yeah, I do agree with Somebody's points. 5-C Roshi ain't an outlier. It's also possible the energy value of the attack could be higher due to the moon being seemingly completely vaporized in the attack. I was gonna say this in the previous thread but it got closed before I could say anything else.

I think either a rating of "At least 7-B, possibly 5-C" or just outright "5-C" is okay in this situation.
Click to expand...

I think that "At least 7-B, possibly 5-C" could be something worth considering.

Does this put me in the neutral column?
 
I'll make a new column for that, do only want "At least 7-B, possibly 5-C" or are you also okay with just 5-C or 7-B?
 
  • We already know Kami has Creation through the "Clothes Beam", which Piccolo does with Ki, not magic.
    • The link doesn't work; I think it should be fixed soon.
Honestly, I am fine with the OP regarding Roshi and those who scaled to being stronger than him being 5-C. The 7-B feats are really casually done so I don't think the 5-C feats are necessarily outliers.
 
I'd also recommend waiting for AKM Sama and Matthew Schroeder before making any changes. And once I'm ready, I'll bring up points regarding 22nd Budokai and Tien.
 
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