Additions to the HDE page (Staff Thread)

[PrinceofPein]

I went through the HDE page recently, and realized it is pure math and physics and does not have options for other viable methods HDE can be gotten,
We should add this to the page

The term "Higher-Dimensional Existence" refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension. It is important to note that certain criteria must be met for an object or entity to be considered Higher-Dimensional.

• Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings.
• Ontological differences over 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs, with three or more dimensions, are often a measure of power and do not necessarily indicate the presence of an extradimensional axis.
• Being infinitely larger than or containing infinite 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs signifies an uncountable infinite difference, which can suggest qualitative superiority. However, without further context, this does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis.
• Simply stating that something is Higher Dimensional or from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects.
• Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extradimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context.
• Stating that something transcends space or space and time does not necessarily imply that it has an extradimensional axis or that it pertains to the geometry of the object.

@ImmortalDread said I should give credit so I am giving a small one to her for helping change a word or two

It should be placed at the bottom of the page before the applications of HDE

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Deagonx]

This looks good to me at a glance, can you specify where exactly it would be placed in the page?

 

[PrinceofPein]

This looks good to me at a glance, can you specify where exactly it would be placed in the page?

Thanks, I updated the OP with the information

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not an HDE expert but I'd say this is a worthwhile addition.

@Ultima_Reality what are your thoughts?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'm not an HDE expert but I'd say this is a worthwhile addition.

@Ultima_Reality what are your thoughts?

Please tag
DontTalk, Efficiente, Planck, Everything and Ant

 

[Deagonx]

@DontTalkDT @Antvasima @Planck69 @Everything12 @Eficiente

This appears to be a straightforward and no-nonsense addition to our HDE page. Are any of you willing to chime in?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems good to me as well, but I am not the best person to ask.

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne

What do you think?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with the addition, but I will wait for DT to comment further.

 

[RaveeCPN]

2. The Entity or Object is larger than an infinite 3-Dimensional object or world.

I think we need to detail this a little bit. Because just with this logic, it seems like the structures that contain a H3A structure should automatically be 4D - which is not true. So i think it would be better to specify it as "being infinitely bigger than an infinite 3D structure".

 

[Ovy7]

I do agree with the introduction of what Pein suggested, as these points would make people better understand what HDE is about than just looking at the massive math info dump.

Tho not sure about the "object" in "There is Reality-Fiction Transcendence over a 3-Dimensional World or Object.". For example, if a phone is fiction to you, but the world the said phone is from isn't, then I don't think that should count. In this case the word "object" should probably be removed. But this one is a very minor complaint of mine, not really that important.

 

[KLOL506]

Not my territory but I know people who deal with this so...

@Planck69 BONJOUR MA CHERIE

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Ultima_Reality WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER

 

[PrinceofPein]

I think we need to detail this a little bit. Because just with this logic, it seems like the structures that contain a H3A structure should automatically be 4D - which is not true. So i think it would be better to specify it as "being infinitely larger than an infinite 3D structure".

there is no such thing as larger than infinite while remaining infinite, so to say if you are larger than a High 3-A structure, you are uncountable infinite larger than 3-D entities or objects which will be 4-D.
but I can try and think of things to add to the quotes to explain it better, I am trying not to make it bulky or hard to read

Tho not sure about the "object" in "There is Reality-Fiction Transcendence over a 3-Dimensional World or Object.". For example, if a phone is fiction to you, but the world the said phone is from isn't, then I don't think that should count. In this case the word "object" should probably be removed. But this one is a very minor complaint of mine, not really that important.

I mean if you hold R>F transcendence over a phone or 3-D objects, that is a qualitative difference which will make you 4-D.
I am not really understanding your explanation here

 

[RaveeCPN]

there is no such thing as larger than infinite while remaining infinite, so to say if you are larger than a High 3-A structure, you are uncountable infinite larger than 3-D entities or objects which will be 4-D.

What I'm talking about is that just saying "being bigger than infinite 3D" is open to different interpretations as I mentioned above. So we need to detail this somehow- At least that would be better in my opinion

 

[Qawsedf234]

there is no such thing as larger than infinite while remaining infinite

There are different degrees and ideals of infinity.

Though in this case a higher infinity over High 3-A would still qualify for Low 2-C so it's whatever.

that is a qualitative difference which will make you 4-D.
I am not really understanding your explanation here

They're saying if you view something in the universe as fictional that isn't enough for a HDE rating without also confirming the entire universe the phone is in is also considered fictional from the character's perspective.

 

[Deagonx]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Ultima_Reality WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER

 

[Ovy7]

I mean if you hold R>F transcendence over a phone or 3-D objects, that is a qualitative difference which will make you 4-D.
I am not really understanding your explanation here

I mean holding transcendence difference over just said phone, and not the reality from which the phone is from. A bit of a weird (and probably stupid) example, I know.

 

[PrinceofPein]

There are different degrees and ideals of infinity.

Though in this case a higher infinity over High 3-A would still qualify for Low 2-C so it's whatever.

Is there a thing you recommend I add to the sentence or it is okay as it is currently?

They're saying if you view something in the universe as fictional that isn't enough for a HDE rating without also confirming the entire universe the phone is in is also considered fictional from the character's perspective.

I mean holding transcendence difference over just said phone, and not the reality from which the phone is from. A bit of a weird (and probably stupid) example, I know.

I understand now, I will word it better since it is correct

 

[ImmortalDread]

There are different degrees and ideals of infinity.

But we (VSBW) don't acknowledge that. Pain got a point here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Is there a thing you recommend I add to the sentence or it is okay as it is currently?

Imo it's fine as is. Like I said for 3D infinity, being a higher infinity would qualify for Low 2-C no matter what.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The above explanation can also be equated to either of these options which also proves qualitative superiority between two dimensions or objects.
1. There is Reality-Fiction Transcendence over a 3 or more Dimensional World.
2. The Entity or Object is larger than an infinite 3-Dimensional object or world.
3. They hold a form of transcendence over 3-D in a way that 3-D is unreal to them i.e. they hold an ontological difference over 3-Dimensional worlds or objects.

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

 

[Larssx]

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

I understand the 2nd and 3rd examples, but doesn't the 1st example fit what you said?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I understand the 2nd and 3rd examples, but doesn't the 1st example fit what you said?

Seeing reality as fiction doesn't mean that your body has an additional dimensional axis. Beings that look in reality as fiction are frequently portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings (i.e. they often have a human shape), just that they are "more real".

 

[ImmortalDread]

1st one is more for the potency and not for being nature.

 

[Deagonx]

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

Ahh okay. I misunderstood the premise of the page/ability

 

[Larssx]

Seeing reality as fiction doesn't mean that your body has an additional dimensional axis. Beings that look in reality as fiction are frequently portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings (i.e. they often have a human shape), just that they are "more real".

Alright, makes sense.

 

[RaveeCPN]

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

I agree with you on the first and third statements as they are mostly about the attack potency of the characters. But isn't the second statement directly related to the existence of the character? Because to be bigger than the infinity of something or to see its infinity as infinitesimally small must give N+1 dimensions or baseline. And because a character gains this through his size, isn't it logically related to his existence?

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, it is more of large size (which gives him the potency equivalence) and not his existence in the mathematical sense.

 

[RaveeCPN]

No, it is more of large size.

FAQ page states that this will grants N+1.

In fact, this is already the reason why The Space Beyond is currently considered Possibly L1-C in Ben 10.

 

[ImmortalDread]

FAQ page states that this will grants N+1.

Which is irrelevant to HDE and more of potency as I pointed out earlier.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Which is irrelevant to HDE and more of potency as I pointed out earlier.

What I was talking about was that this statement is more about the character's existence/body. Not with his/her power.

*Although it doesn't matter whether what I say is accepted or not. I'm just curious about DT's opinion, that's all.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What I was talking about was that this statement is more about the character's existence/body. Not with his/her power.

Exactly, body. The existence of said body has nothing to do with body itself (and not even a subset of it).
And once you are larger, you will also get larger power / speed and not dimensionality of existence.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Exactly, body. The existence of said body has nothing to do with body itself

This goes against wiki standards. For example, having a 4D structure inside your body gives you a 4D HDE. And that's exactly the same as what I'm saying. Being BIGGER enough to see an infinite 3D structure as infinitely small or to be infinitely bigger than it should give you HDE. I am not talking in terms of power but in terms of size.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You could see this way (being a 4D structure itself is HDE), but I disagree having a structure inside your body gives you higher dimensional existence.

 

[RaveeCPN]

You could see this way (being a 4D structure itself is HDE)

This is mathematically impossible. A 3D entity cannot contain a 4D thing

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes it could. Best example is Rimuru. Lol, also this is fiction, and not maths.

 

[Georredannea15]

I agree with Rave on this one. If you view a 3D entity as an infinitesimal part, or have a "qualitatively larger infinity" as a large size, you qualify for HDE.

For example, someone with a Type 8 large size automatically gains HDE because it is mathematically infinitely larger than 3D and contains a space-time continuum in the universal dimension.

From another perspective, you can have 4D or 5D assets and HDE, but in this case, you can't get the AP model without the extra binding. You can have HDE without your AP or power scale, and Rave is not talking about being infinitely strong here, she talking about being mathematically/qualitative infinitely greater/bigger.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Yes it could. Best example is Rimuru. Lol, also this is fiction, and not maths.

Then there's nothing either of us can do here. This is all about wiki standards. Because in the same way Alien X has HDE only because it has a 4D pocket dimension in it.

Which I'm saying should be true even if we don't count it as HDE directly. Because being an infinity bigger than the infinity of something in pure size means N+1 Dimension according to the FAQ page.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Then there's nothing either of us can do here. This is all about wiki standards. Because in the same way Alien X has HDE only because it has a 4D pocket dimension in it.

Really? Then this issue needs to be addressed. @DontTalkDT can you help with us?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with Rave on this one. If you view a 3D entity as an infinitesimal part

This is attack potency

, or have a "qualitatively larger infinity" as a large size, you qualify for HDE.

If you mean, being a 4D structure itself (for example, Eques Wn in MG is literally 4D structure himself) then I agree.

For example, someone with a Type 8 large size automatically gains HDE because it is mathematically infinitely larger than 3D and contains a space-time continuum in the universal dimension.

Where does it state this in large size? Tho, you brought a good point, it should be added in the page if DT address it.

From another perspective, you can have 4D or 5D assets and HDP, but in this case, you can't get the AP model without the extra binding. You can have HDE without your AP or power scale, and Rave is not talking about being infinitely strong here, she talking about being mathematically/qualitative infinitely greater/bigger.

I am aware of what Rave is talking about. But I am telling him, with pure large size, it should only grant AP and speed, not existence itself.

But seems there is conflict here, since Rimuru did not get HDE despite having the same feat as Alien X

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with you on the first and third statements as they are mostly about the attack potency of the characters. But isn't the second statement directly related to the existence of the character? Because to be bigger than the infinity of something or to see its infinity as infinitesimally small must give N+1 dimensions or baseline. And because a character gains this through his size, isn't it logically related to his existence?

You can be larger than n-dimensional space in many ways, not all of them are having more dimensional axis. So in terms of size / AP, yes, but not necessarily geometrically.

This goes against wiki standards. For example, having a 4D structure inside your body gives you a 4D HDE. And that's exactly the same as what I'm saying. Being BIGGER enough to see an infinite 3D structure as infinitely small or to be infinitely bigger than it should give you HDE. I am not talking in terms of power but in terms of size.

If you contain a 4D structure, you're probably 4D (some exceptions exist), but if you contain just a 3D structure as infinitely small thing, then you are not necessarily 4D. You just need to be infinitely bigger than it in one of the many ways fiction imagines qualitative superiority.