Addition to the reactions page

[Antvasima]

Basically the thing is this.

Usage of speed statements within a story for a calc.

For example: Character A has a stated speed of X m/s that is not contradicted by more slower showings and is shown to be consistent (For this specific point) or has achieved this speed via some reasonable explanation like a power-up etc. Now, Character A fights against B, and Character A is explicitly stated to be operating at full power, and attacks B, but B dodges at the last minute.

Basically this scenario (Or a scenario where the speed statement is shown right as Character A attacks B and B dodges at that moment in the same scenario where the speed is blurted out by the story itself) would allow the usage of that speed value in our Projectile Dodging Feats Formula, provided the "Distance Between Character A and B at the time of B dodging" and the "Distance dodged by B" are viably calculable.

Basically there are conditions that must be fulfilled to allow this to work out:

1. The character attacking (Character A) MUST BE EXPLICITLY STATED to not be holding back and to be going all out and using their full power (and speed if that's what the others prefer)

2. The stated speed must prove to at least be consistent with the other speed showings in the story, or if it is much higher than the regular showings, the stated speed must have some reasonable explanation or justification within the story as to how the character attacking got that fast.

3. The Character dodging (Character B) would have to be directly reacting/dodging/parrying the attacks of the Character that had the said speed stated (Character A), they cannot qualify if they dodge an attack from someone else (Character C) that had once fought against the Character with said speed, so as to avoid further dilution of the feat.

4. (Optional) It is preferable if the dodging feat happens in the exact same scenario as where the speed statement is found for more accuracy and reliability to ensure that Character A truly was at that speed. If not, the other above conditions need to be met.

One example I can make of such a feat is this:

Character A plays a tennis match with Character B. Character A hits the ball so hard that it causes a sonic boom and a shockwave Character B only realizes at the last moment the true ferocity of that ball, and the story and Character B then both explicitly state that the ball has broken the sound barrier (343 m/s minimum). The distance between Character B and the tennis ball is reliably calculated to be 0.4 m, and Character B then swings hard into the ball at a 90 degree (1.5708 rad) arc with their arm. Arm length being 44% of body height and the character being 1.7018 m tall, thus having an arm length of roughly 0.75 m. Distance moved is thus 0.75 * 1.5708= 1.1781 m

Projectile Dodging Formula: (Distance Moved by Character * Velocity of Projectile) / Distance between Projectile and Character when the Character starts moving

Speed: (1.1781 * 343) / 0.4= 1010.22075 m/s (Supersonic+).

This is just an example. But it is no different than how we calculate bullet-dodging feats or feats involving dodging other projectile types. The only difference here is that instead of the real-life established velocities of various guns (Or even velocities of arrows for arrow-dodging), the story itself gives us the velocity of the projectile that the character is dodging.

Okay. Thank you for the explanation. That seems to make sense to me.

So do our other staff members here agree with you, or are there disagreements, and if so, regarding what?

 

[KLOL506]

The main issue is blitzing, not just calcing movement from stated speeds

I think for blitzing the formula would be using the Slow-Mo formula:

Person's True Speed: (Object's true speed / Object's apparent speed which would be how slow we and the other guy see the object moving as) * Person's apparent speed AKA the speed we see this guy moving at

It should be usable here as well, it's the same as using bullet velocity as object's true speed while object's apparent speed would be how fast we'd see it moving on-screen, and person's apparent speed would be how fast we see the dude moving on the screen.

Same conditions to qualify for using the speed on Projectile Dodging apply here as well.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think about this?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/addition-to-the-reactions-page.134915/post-4749736

 

[KingTempest]

I think for blitzing the formula would be using the Slow-Mo formula:

Person's Apparent Speed: (Object's true speed / Object's apparent speed which would be how slow we and the other guy see the object moving as) * Person's apparent speed AKA the speed we see this guy moving at

It should be usable here as well, it's the same as using bullet velocity as object's true speed while object's apparent speed would be how fast we'd see it moving on-screen, and person's apparent speed would be how fast we see the dude moving on the screen.

Same conditions to qualify for using the speed on Projectile Dodging apply here as well.

this wouldn't work well at all for series that don't use the Flash/Quicksilver slow motion template.

If someone gets blitzed, doesn't move and doesn't react to or perceive someone moving by them, then what, we'd use the formula with snail speed to make them almost 500x faster by default?

 

[Damage3245]

When it comes to blitzes, our Reaction page so far just says this:

If character A can blitz character B, A's movement speed may be scaled to B's reaction speed.

 

[Antvasima]

That text seems to likely need to be expanded then.

 

[KingTempest]

That's what's trying to be revised

 

[WrongIdea21]

I think for blitzing the formula would be using the Slow-Mo formula:

Person's Apparent Speed: (Object's true speed / Object's apparent speed which would be how slow we and the other guy see the object moving as) * Person's apparent speed AKA the speed we see this guy moving at

It should be usable here as well, it's the same as using bullet velocity as object's true speed while object's apparent speed would be how fast we'd see it moving on-screen, and person's apparent speed would be how fast we see the dude moving on the screen.

Same conditions to qualify for using the speed on Projectile Dodging apply here as well.

I think this doesn't works on some feats.

 

[CloverDragon03]

When it comes to blitzes, our Reaction page so far just says this:

We're trying to revise that, especially in the case of characters blitzing someone of a known, stated speed, as I don't think it's the most accurate to just scale them to that speed and call it a day

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think for blitzing the formula would be using the Slow-Mo formula:

Person's Apparent Speed: (Object's true speed / Object's apparent speed which would be how slow we and the other guy see the object moving as) * Person's apparent speed AKA the speed we see this guy moving at

It should be usable here as well, it's the same as using bullet velocity as object's true speed while object's apparent speed would be how fast we'd see it moving on-screen, and person's apparent speed would be how fast we see the dude moving on the screen.

Same conditions to qualify for using the speed on Projectile Dodging apply here as well.

This should be fine, it does buff all blitz calcs massively tho

 

[Damage3245]

We're trying to revise that, especially in the case of characters blitzing someone of a known, stated speed, as I don't think it's the most accurate to just scale them to that speed and call it a day

I know; was just recounting what is presently there.

If someone gets blitzed, doesn't move and doesn't react to or perceive someone moving by them, then what, we'd use the formula with snail speed to make them almost 500x faster by default?

I'd say that depends. If somebody doesn't appear move, it may be because they're not moving in the first place. In which case they wouldn't have any apparent speed and would'nt be viable for that calc formula.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I know; was just recounting what is presently there.

Gotcha

I'd say that depends. If somebody doesn't appear move, it may be because they're not moving in the first place. In which case they wouldn't have any apparent speed and would'nt be viable for that calc formula.

Fair, but what about cases where a character is clearly moving but then they get blitzed to the point where they appear to be stationary?

 

[Damage3245]

Gotcha

Fair, but what about cases where a character is clearly moving but then they get blitzed to the point where they appear to be stationary?

Unless I'm mistaken, for someone to qualify for actual snail speed there needs to be some kind of statement to the effect of them appearing frozen. If not we have to try and work out ourselves what their apparent speed is. If there isn't a statement, then we can't just assume they should be frozen based on still images or frames which can't show us everything.

I'm speaking generally though. Some feats will be easier to gauge than others.

 

[WrongIdea21]

I have a Question , what time frame we used if the feat is stated to be an instant movement?

 

[KLOL506]

Unless I'm mistaken, for someone to qualify for actual snail speed there needs to be some kind of statement to the effect of them appearing frozen. If not we have to try and work out ourselves what their apparent speed is. If there isn't a statement, then we can't just assume they should be frozen based on still images or frames which can't show us everything.

Absolutely. Don't just blindly assume snail speed unless you are absolutely sure that the term "They looked frozen" or similar appears. They could even appear to be walking as slow as other animals or have normal walking speed as the apparent speed, it all needs to be figured out based on the visuals we're given.

I'm speaking generally though. Some feats will be easier to gauge than others.

Also true.

 

[KLOL506]

I have a Question , what time frame we used if the feat is stated to be an instant movement?

None of these formulae rely on timeframe, so timeframe here is useless.

 

[KLOL506]

I think this doesn't works on some feats.

Yes, because they can't account for timeframe, in order to stick with the main component, speed.

 

[WrongIdea21]

None of these formulae rely on timeframe, so timeframe here is useless.

I mean, we can't used Reaction speed as a Timeframe, like Snail speed as a Timeframe. So it's still relevant i think.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, we can't used Reaction speed as a Timeframe, like Snail speed as a Timeframe. So it's still relevant i think.

No, because those timeframes are no longer Reaction Speeds as the original thread had concluded. Reaction Speeds require both a distance and timeframe component. Here you're asking to get speed out of a timeframe whereas the main issue is with using an already-established speed value.

And again, you can't use speed as a timeframe like this in any of those formulae at all.

Projectile Dodging Feats: (Distance dodged by character * Projectile Velocity) / Distance between Projectile and Character when the Character started dodging

Slow Mo Calc (Person's true speed): (Object's true speed/Object's apparent speed) * Person's apparent speed

None of these formulae use timeframes on paper.

You could however, argue that the first formula uses it to a degree, since you're basically finding how much time it took for the projectile to cover the distance and then you're calculating how much distance the character covered within that timeframe compared to the bullet, but again, you still need the distance moved by the projectile (Alternatively, the distance between the character and projectile), and the distance moved by the character, as well as the main velocity of the projectile.

 

[KingTempest]

Which is why I brought up the arm length solution.

Now blitzing others is completely useless unless they appear to be moving in slow motion huh

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Which is why I brought up the arm length solution.

Now blitzing others is completely useless unless they appear to be moving in slow motion huh

I still agree with this

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I really think this has been over complicated and veered off into a tangent. If a character has a stated combat speed (say 100 m/s), they consistently fight and react at melee ranges (say arm’s length or 1 m if you really want to lowball it) at the prior stated speed, then it is fair to say that their on guard reaction time is the assumed distance over the stated speed (arm’s length / 100 m/s or 0.01 s using the 1 m assumption).

 

[KLOL506]

Which is why I brought up the arm length solution.

Now blitzing others is completely useless unless they appear to be moving in slow motion huh

Actually, now that I think about it, wouldn't that fall under the Common Feats references? Sort of?

Honestly tho it'd be much preferable if one properly calculated the distance moved by character and the distance between the character and the impending projectile. It's not like every reacting/dodging feat is gonna involve moving your arm in a degree (Ducking and bobbing and weaving also exist, which are even harder to calculate), also not all arms are the same, they vary wildly in length.

 

[WrongIdea21]

No, because those timeframes are no longer Reaction Speeds as the original thread had concluded. Reaction Speeds require both a distance and timeframe component. Here you're asking to get speed out of a timeframe whereas the main issue is with using an already-established speed value.

Understable.

I little bit Confused on this.

Person's Apparent Speed: (Object's true speed / Object's apparent speed which would be how slow we and the other guy see the object moving as) * Person's apparent speed AKA the speed we see this guy moving at

We try to Find the Apparent speed but this Formula used Apparent speed in it.
Like A = ( B/C)*A

This kinda Confusing tho.

 

[KLOL506]

I little bit Confused on this.


We try to Find the Apparent speed but this Formula used Apparent speed in it.
Like A = ( B/C)*A

This kinda Confusing tho.

Whups. You're right, it should actually be "Person's True Speed". Fixed now.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Whups. You're right, it should actually be "Person's True Speed". Fixed now.

I got it now, with this the main incoming Topic is to determine the feats was actually Slow minor not. Yeah I do agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions so far here?

 

[KLOL506]

So what are the conclusions so far here?

Seems like the above paragraph I mentioned is already accepted as this is how we do projectile dodging feats for bullets, arrows and other projectiles that have IRL-based values.

Now only KingTempest's issues regarding how to handle blitzes remain.

I offered this solution as a compromise.

I think for blitzing the formula would be using the Slow-Mo formula:

Person's True Speed: (Object's true speed / Object's apparent speed which would be how slow we and the other guy see the object moving as) * Person's apparent speed AKA the speed we see this guy moving at

It should be usable here as well, it's the same as using bullet velocity as object's true speed while object's apparent speed would be how fast we'd see it moving on-screen, and person's apparent speed would be how fast we see the dude moving on the screen.

Same conditions to qualify for using the speed on Projectile Dodging apply here as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out,

What do the rest of you think about the suggested compromise solution?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Seems like the above paragraph I mentioned is already accepted as this is how we do projectile dodging feats for bullets, arrows and other projectiles that have IRL-based values.

Now only KingTempest's issues regarding how to handle blitzes remain.

I offered this solution as a compromise.

So for any blitz we use the slow mo formula now? With whatever apparent speed the person getting blitzed is moving at, whatever that may be?

 

[KingTempest]

That means that we need proof of a slow motion blitz.

And this changes nothing, because we're asking for someone who can also react to a certain speed even if they can't move at it, also those who aren't moving who get blitzed.

All this does is give another scenario for the Flash/Quicksilver effect, and not for any regular blitz

 

[KLOL506]

That means that we need proof of a slow motion blitz.

And this changes nothing, because we're asking for someone who can also react to a certain speed even if they can't move at it, also those who aren't moving who get blitzed.

All this does is give another scenario for the Flash/Quicksilver effect, and not for any regular blitz

Actually it works with a variety of other speeds as well. Doesn't just have to be snail speed. Walking speed also works.

 

[WrongIdea21]

I saw some Calculations that use this method even though there are no statments, I know that statments are needed but if the Feats concerned is clear that it is Slow mo even frozen, Your method should can be apply without being limited by statements only.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Actually it works with a variety of other speeds as well. Doesn't just have to be snail speed. Walking speed also works.

So it doesn’t need to be “slow motion” you just need to have an apparent speed of the character that’s getting blitzed?

 

[KLOL506]

So it doesn’t need to be “slow motion” you just need to have an apparent speed of the character that’s getting blitzed?

yep

 

[KLOL506]

I saw some Calculations that use this method even though there are no statments, I know that statments are needed but if the Feats concerned is clear that it is Slow mo even frozen, Your method should can be apply without being limited by statements only.

Once again, not my formula, it's Clover's.

But aye, it can be used in almost any scenario. In live action scenarios tho, the apparent speed would be worth 1px movement during the amount of dilated timeframe (But the images need to be high-quality from the original source).

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

yep

And for characters that can’t react/move at all in response (assuming they aren’t off guard), we use snail speed?

 

[KLOL506]

And for characters that can’t react/move at all in response (assuming they aren’t off guard), we use snail speed?

Assuming in the still manga it is explicitly stated that the characters during mid-movement were viewed as frozen, aye. Snail speed is usually left exclusively for media that have no animated counterparts.

In animated scenarios tho, you usually don't need that, you can just find in how much timeframe the slowed-down item moved one pixel (Or the outer black border of a character in an anime assuming the line remains constant, otherwise just stick with 1px movement within slowed timeframe) after you do the whole meter-per-pixel thing, and then divide the meter value with the timeframe during which everything was slowed down, to get your "Object's Apparent Speed".

Person's apparent speed is basically just calc'ing how fast they move their body limbs within that slowed timeframe. You know what to do with the rest.

 

[Damage3245]

And for characters that can’t react/move at all in response (assuming they aren’t off guard), we use snail speed?

If characters don't actually move at all, then snail speed can't be used. They wouldn't have any apparent speed as they wouldn't be moving.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Person's apparent speed is basically just calc'ing how fast they move their body limbs within that slowed timeframe. You know what to do with the rest.

Ok this makes sense.

What about characters that couldn’t even react or move at all, as Damage brought up they aren’t moving. But to react to someone you need to perceive them and then have the signals reach your brain, decide upon an action, and have the signals reach your limbs to move. So how would we treat the case in which a character can’t react at all, or can’t perceive a character at all?