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Adding an additional ability for Kris and Frisk...

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Idk, it’s not like Player is who literally resurrects them.
Click to expand...
Flowey has reffered to the Player as the one doing the TRUE RESET instead of Frisk, talking to them as if they are a separate entity from the human child and begging them to not use said power and let Frisk live their life

I mean the player controls Frisk, being able to reset the timeline at will, being firmly connected with the save system, in addition to his soul being different from Frisk as seen in the profile notes, being able to access the saves.

The player needs both and will try as many times as necessary to win (Or perhaps even lose interest), literally abusing the reset and the save system to do so.

which consequently applies to repeatedly resurrecting both
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Isn’t this CRT self-evident/minor as it adds literally only one hax?
Click to expand...
It proposes to add Type 8 Immortality. It can be a contentious ability to add, because Type 8 means reliant, which can mean relying on wonky like concepts or higher beings. So I'd assume it's similar to CRTs that touch on higher dimensionality/tiered stuff.

The Wiki on what Immortality Type 8 is:

8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place, and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.

Ostensibly, the "Player" (the entity Undertale asserts is present in its setting.) would be what UT's player character would be "reliant" on for this.

The line "It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile." may also be notable, although I do wonder if that text goes contrary to indexing comprehensively.

Apologies for any bother, all.
 
Me myself is against Type 8 because it is based off Resurrection via Determination, and it is not like Player literally resurrects them, but there were many CRTs that were accepted due to one mod agreeing because it just added one hax ability, which is why I asked.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Me myself is against Type 8 because it is based off Resurrection via Determination, and it is not like Player literally resurrects them, but there were many CRTs that were accepted due to one mod agreeing because it just added one hax ability, which is why I asked.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting point.

Am I mistaken or not in saying that the basis for Type 8 would be that the "Player" resurrects Frisk/Chara, through the SAVE & LOAD system?
After all, other Determination users can do such things with sufficient Determination.

But the profile is written as though they do the SAVE & LOAD actions themselves, including the resurrection that goes with that. So it wouldn't be the "Player" doing that, ergo, the Type 8 would be reliant on..... The SAVE & LOAD system?
I mean, I guess we do see that the Files are a thing, mostly with Omega Flowey "destroying" one. But files are timelines, right?

So is this ability reliant on a timeline??
But doesn't Sans's dialogue imply loading causes new timelines?
 
Imaginym said:
That's an interesting point.

Am I mistaken or not in saying that the basis for Type 8 would be that the "Player" resurrects Frisk/Chara, through the SAVE & LOAD system?
After all, other Determination users can do such things with sufficient Determination.
Click to expand...
I think probably the point is that Frisk’s determination is actually Player’s determination or something, I saw some theories like that, but I don’t think it is accepted on this wiki. Pretty sure Frisk’s determination is their own as Asriel’s dialogue in True Pacifist was referring to Frisk (although he thought it was Chara). More notably, Player can do True Reset, and Frisk can’t, as implied by Flowey in the end of True Pacifist, so Player’s DT is independent from Frisk’s and is even superior to theirs. This is in my understanding though.

Idk about Deltarune.
Imaginym said:
But the profile is written as though they do the SAVE & LOAD actions themselves, including the resurrection that goes with that. So it wouldn't be the "Player" doing that, ergo, the Type 8 would be reliant on..... The SAVE & LOAD system?
I mean, I guess we do see that the Files are a thing, mostly with Omega Flowey "destroying" one. But files are timelines, right?
Click to expand...
Files that Flowey destroys are not timelines, but just save points.
Imaginym said:
So is this ability reliant on a timeline??
But doesn't Sans's dialogue imply loading causes new timelines?
Click to expand...
Eh, kinda yes, kinda no. Read more in this accepted Cosmology blog, which goes over save and load system and how it works.
 
Imaginym said:
It proposes to add Type 8 Immortality. It can be a contentious ability to add, because Type 8 means reliant, which can mean relying on wonky like concepts or higher beings. So I'd assume it's similar to CRTs that touch on higher dimensionality/tiered stuff.

The Wiki on what Immortality Type 8 is:

8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place, and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.

Ostensibly, the "Player" (the entity Undertale asserts is present in its setting.) would be what UT's player character would be "reliant" on for this.

The line "It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile." may also be notable, although I do wonder if that text goes contrary to indexing comprehensively.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's really a problem, as although the resurrection mechanics are the same or similar, the nature of the Player's existence must be relevant enough for this to apply.
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Me myself is against Type 8 because it is based off Resurrection via Determination,
Click to expand...
This may be valid, but I believe that due to the nature of the player it is applicable, since as he exists outside of undertale/deltarune, he is virtually immune to temporal manipulation changes via Determination that works independently of the will of Frisk or Kris, and can be resurrected. them independently of themselves
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
and it is not like Player literally resurrects them
Click to expand...
Now, this doesn't make sense because the player is able to manipulate time and abuse the mechanics of the Frisk and Kris independent save system through their own determination, being able to resurrect both at will so you know... Continue playing
Imaginym said:
That's an interesting point.

Am I mistaken or not in saying that the basis for Type 8 would be that the "Player" resurrects Frisk/Chara, through the SAVE & LOAD system?
After all, other Determination users can do such things with sufficient Determination.

But the profile is written as though they do the SAVE & LOAD actions themselves, including the resurrection that goes with that. So it wouldn't be the "Player" doing that, ergo, the Type 8 would be reliant on..... The SAVE & LOAD system?
I mean, I guess we do see that the Files are a thing, mostly with Omega Flowey "destroying" one. But files are timelines, right?

So is this ability reliant on a timeline??
But doesn't Sans's dialogue imply loading causes new timelines?
Click to expand...
Well in this case, both Frisk and the player would be able to use the save system, for example Frisk trying to use it independently of the player in the fight against Asriel/Flowey, or when Flowey himself asked the player to let Frisk continue their life in peace.
 
bump, I'm going to assume everything is fine, can someone unlock Frisk and Kris' pages to make the changes?
 
EnderLord8 said:
I don't think it's really a problem, as although the resurrection mechanics are the same or similar, the nature of the Player's existence must be relevant enough for this to apply.
Click to expand...
Frisk’s Resurrection comes from their determination and save points, not Player.
EnderLord8 said:
This may be valid, but I believe that due to the nature of the player it is applicable, since as he exists outside of undertale/deltarune, he is virtually immune to temporal manipulation changes via Determination that works independently of the will of Frisk or Kris, and can be resurrected.
Click to expand...
Player being outside does not mean Frisk relies on Player to come back to life.
EnderLord8 said:
Now, this doesn't make sense because the player is able to manipulate time and abuse the mechanics of the Frisk and Kris independent save system through their own determination, being able to resurrect both at will so you know... Continue playing
Click to expand...
The point was, Frisk's Determination ≠ Player’s Determination.
EnderLord8 said:
Well in this case, both Frisk and the player would be able to use the save system, for example Frisk trying to use it independently of the player in the fight against Asriel/Flowey, or when Flowey himself asked the player to let Frisk continue their life in peace.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the point is Frisk relies on their own DT, not Player’s.
 
I don't really agree with frisk and Kris being reliant on the player, tho you could say that with save and load since their reliant actually comes from it since they can come back after dying as long the file is saved. Anyway I'm neutral about this until more people give their opinion.
 
YousifNotHere said:
I don't really agree with frisk and Kris being reliant on the player, tho you could say that with save and load since their reliant actually comes from it since they can come back after dying as long the file is saved. Anyway I'm neutral about this until more people give their opinion.
Click to expand...
That’s via Resurrection, not reliant
 
I see, there's no way this wouldn't turn into a full discussion, it was supposed to be something so simple...
Maybe it would be good to gather more supporters, I haven't really mastered this, so let's go through the basics.
1-Which characters do we see have Determination in Undertale/Deltarune? The Player, Frisk, Chara, (Kris?), Undyne, Flowey and the human souls;

2-Which characters can use the Save system through Determination? Flowey, Frisk, the other human souls when they were alive and the PLAYER.
* But your argument is that the Player does not have access to the Save system, but Frisk is the one who has access? Is my interpretation of your argument correct?
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
No. They both have access to it. The point is: Frisk is still reliant on saving system to come back to life, not Player.
Click to expand...
Ok, this simplifies my understanding a lot
My argument is that both the Player and Frisk can use the save system to revive Frisk.

Like if someone does something that kills Frisk in a way that prevents them from using the save system like petrification for example, the player can still use the save system to revive Frisk.

Like an extra layer of temporal resurrection done by a being that exists outside of Undertale
This would apply to Kris too, in that the player would revive him through this exact means.
 
EnderLord8 said:
Ok, this simplifies my understanding a lot
My argument is that both the Player and Frisk can use the save system to revive Frisk.

Like if someone does something that kills Frisk in a way that prevents them from using the save system like petrification for example, the player can still use the save system to revive Frisk.

Like an extra layer of temporal resurrection done by a being that exists outside of Undertale
This would apply to Kris too, in that the player would revive him through this exact means.
Click to expand...
Oh.
On the second thought, this makes sense.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
That’s via Resurrection, not reliant
Click to expand...
What i meant by that is frisk resurrection relies on save point, if save point or save system doesn't exist then frisk have no way to come back since there's nothing for them to rely on coming back and try again. Means no resurrection immortality and no resilient immortality aswell since there's no save point or save system in undertale.
 
EnderLord8 said:
Ok, this simplifies my understanding a lot
My argument is that both the Player and Frisk can use the save system to revive Frisk.

Like if someone does something that kills Frisk in a way that prevents them from using the save system like petrification for example, the player can still use the save system to revive Frisk.

Like an extra layer of temporal resurrection done by a being that exists outside of Undertale
This would apply to Kris too, in that the player would revive him through this exact means.
Click to expand...

About the player having access to save system, the player can lose their access, evidence by omega/photoshop flowey statement, you actually lose your access to save point after he absorbs 6 human souls and gain access to the save system and can crash the game and you can still come back (probably due to flowey using his save point to bring frisk back?) and also evidence by Chara also destroying the cosmology which possibly killing frisk (depends on interpretation tbh) and you also lose access to the save system since you can't bring frisk back. Either way, i agree with immortality type 8 for the save system but for the player part it's iffy for me.
 
YousifNotHere said:
About the player having access to save system, the player can lose their access, evidence by omega/photoshop flowey statement, you actually lose your access to save point after he absorbs 6 human souls and gain access to the save system and can crash the game and you can still come back (probably due to flowey using his save point to bring frisk back?) and also evidence by Chara also destroying the cosmology which possibly killing frisk (depends on interpretation tbh) and you also lose access to the save system since you can't bring frisk back.
Click to expand...
Is your argument a bit contradictory? I mean your argument is that the player can't revive Frisk because he loses his ability to revive them through the save system for Flowey and Chara who kind of stole this ability from the Player, this means he can still revive Frisk through the save system as long as no one steals his ability
 
EnderLord8 said:
Is your argument a bit contradictory? I mean your argument is that the player can't revive Frisk because he loses his ability to revive them through the save system for Flowey and Chara who kind of stole this ability from the Player, this means he can still revive Frisk through the save system as long as no one steals his ability
Click to expand...
To summarize it.

Save system - - > gives the users who possess that power immortalities (type 2,4, and 8) and these immortalities relies on save system

Flowey - - > used to have that ability and able to come back because of it after erasing himself from existence. After he lost it and if you kill him in neutral route, he turns into regular flower and he's not coming back to life since he doesn't have the power to use save point.

Frisk - - > can use save system and if they die they come back because of it. And photoshop flowey stealing this ability would make frisk or the player not able to use save system, if frisk dies in his fight, the game closes and he can also use load to bring frisk back, evidence by him using save and load after you defeat him (he shatters your soul before you even get the game over screen and before the souls go against him)

Player - - > they can access to save system like flowey, frisk and the humans. They can lose access to save system if Chara destroys the cosmology which also kill frisk (since they are talking to the player after opening the game). And photoshop flowey reasoning is still the same as i mentioned in frisk part.


Save system is what allowed the users to bring themselves back after dying. The player have nothing to do with bringing frisk back.
 
YousifNotHere said:
To summarize it.

Save system - - > gives the users who possess that power immortalities (type 2,4, and 8) and these immortalities relies on save system

Flowey - - > used to have that ability and able to come back because of it after erasing himself from existence. After he lost it and if you kill him in neutral route, he turns into regular flower and he's not coming back to life since he doesn't have the power to use save point.

Frisk - - > can use save system and if they die they come back because of it. And photoshop flowey stealing this ability would make frisk or the player not able to use save system, if frisk dies in his fight, the game closes and he can also use load to bring frisk back, evidence by him using save and load after you defeat him (he shatters your soul before you even get the game over screen and before the souls go against him)

Player - - > they can access to save system like flowey, frisk and the humans. They can lose access to save system if Chara destroys the cosmology which also kill frisk (since they are talking to the player after opening the game). And photoshop flowey reasoning is still the same as i mentioned in frisk part.


Save system is what allowed the users to bring themselves back after dying. The player have nothing to do with bringing frisk back.
Click to expand...
I think there is another misunderstanding here, my argument is that if Frisk cannot use the save point to come back to life, the player can still use the save point to revive them
 
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