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Acausality Type 3 Revision

Monarch_Laciel

VS Battles
Retired
21,783
4,826
First. On Powers & Abilities pages that are divided into types, they are almost always a method of how something has that power. Madness Manipulation users can drive their targets crazy through use of drugs (Type1), mind control (Type2), or just looking weird (Type3). Immortality users can be immortal because they lack the concept of death (Type 5), can transfer their consciousnesses to another body (Type 6), because they are beyond all laws of reality and death (type 10), or because they just don't age (Type 1). So now that I've explained how types of powers are effectively a method and explanation of why the character has that power...

Let's look at Acausality Type 3.

Our current definition for Type 3 Acausality is:

Type 3: Temporal Permanence: Characters with this type of Acausality are incredibly difficult to kill, as other versions of themselves - from other points in time and/or from other universes - can survive the destruction of the "original" and act in their place. This also grants them immunity to changes in the past.

Apart from the last sentence which seems rather tacked on**, this seems to have not much to do with our overarching explanation of Acausality, which is:

Acausality is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character. For some characters, this means not being affected by changes to the past; for others, this means defying all logic and acting with disregard for traditional causality.

An alternate self coming in when the original self dies doesn't seem like being unrestrained by conventional cause and effect. All our current explanation of Type 3 sounds like is a form of death activated Duplication or type 6 Immortality or Summoning. Even if you argue it's different enough from those to be separate, the power to bring in alternate selves when you die still certainly isn't inherently a character being unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, doesn't inherently mean they are immune to the past being changed, and certainly doesn't mean they defy all logic. In other words, Type 3 Acausality is not actually an explanation of how someone is Acausal.

Therefore, I propose a change to the definition of Type 3 to better fit with how a similar power would achieve and be an explanation of Acausality.

Type 3: Temporal Permanence: While characters with this type of Acausality can be conventionally affected by changes to the past, alternate versions of them from timelines that were not altered will replace them and continue to act in their place.


While this form of Acausality may be a little rarer, I believe that it is a clearer and more accurate method / explanation / Type of Acausality.


.**(and not even necessarily true - if a person automatically summoned alternate selves when they died - what if they were killed in the past before they gained this power? Why would the ability to bring in alternate selves still work if the person died before ever having the power? Why does the ability to bring in alternate selves inherently make you immune to changes to the past?)
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
This new definition sounds very specific, like that JoJo character.
He himself wouldn't have it according to the new definition, actually.

But yeah, it's very specific.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
This new definition sounds very specific, like that JoJo character.
You mean Funny Valentine? It wouldn't apply to Funny Valentine, as if he was changed by the past being altered, D4C wouldn't automatically bring in an unchanged version of him.

Or do you mean Kars with D4CU. Pretty much the same thing there.
 
If this is the way that type 3 is supposed to work, then I agree that it needs to be changed. Because the current definition doesn't do a good job at all conveying that.

But I think it should be something along these lines

Type 3: Temporal Permanence: While characters with this type of Acausality can be conventionally affected by changes to the past, their present self would still be replaced by a version of themselves from another time/dimension even if they are killed in a different point in time.
 
DMB 1 said:
But yeah, it's very specific.
It is, but the current definition isn't actually Acausality on its own. So either the definition needs to be changed or the type needs to be removed. I thought changing the definition would be better as it would be easier to go through all the type 3s and check if they need to be revised than to shuffle everyone with Type 4 or 5 down to Type 3 and 4.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Type 3: Temporal Permanence: While characters with this type of Acausality can be conventionally affected by changes to the past, their present self would still be replaced by a version of themselves from another time/dimension even if they are killed in a different point in time.
That could potentially work, though it limits the power to only those who are killed/erased by the past being changed rather than anyone who is altered by the past being changed.
 
Oh so you wanted to be any change, I thought that was a little too specific. I'm ok with either, I just thought that would make the type even more rare then it is.
 
Essentially:

  • Frank gets erased from history in a timeline.
  • The Frank from another timeline gets unaffected by such event, but becomes aware of that, an keeps the alternate Frank's memories.
That's how I think it would work.

Not sure which characters would have it though.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Oh so you wanted to be any change, I thought that was a little too specific. I'm ok with either, I just thought that would make the type even more rare then it is.
Any change would include people dying in the past though. Limiting it to only people who die in the past and thus cease to exist in the present/future would make it even rarer than also including people who are just slightly changed in the past and thus slightly changed in the future.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Type 3: Temporal Permanence: While characters with this type of Acausality can be conventionally affected by changes to the past, their present self would still be replaced by a version of themselves from another time/dimension even if they are killed in a different point in time.
This is fine.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Any change would include people dying in the past though. Limiting it to only people who die in the past and thus cease to exist in the present/future would make it even rarer than also including people who are just slightly changed in the past and thus slightly changed in the future.
I mean that's true, but this excludes people who only get replaced if they died in the past. Or would they not count since it's just triggered from dying?
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
I personally don't understand how type 3 is Acausality at all.
Well that's pretty much what I'm saying, and why I want it revised.

DMB 1 said:
Essentially:
I mean, they wouldn't necessarily need to explicitly get the other person's memories somehow. Just be able to come into the altered timeline and keep going as if they were the original version of themselves.
 
Ogbunabali said:
I mean that's true, but this excludes people who only get replaced if they died in the past. Or would they not count since it's just triggered from dying?
It doesn't exclude them? Getting replaced if you die in the past is still getting replaced if your past is changed. Death is still a change.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
It doesn't exclude them? Getting replaced if you die in the past is still getting replaced if your past is changed. Death is still a change.
Yeah, but would the definition you provide include someone that doesn't get replaced by changes in the past and only gets replaced if they explicitly die?

That's what I'm asking, because it sounds like they wouldn't.
 
This reminds me of my Type 2 Acasuality thread that also needs to be concluded as its problematic as well.

Anywho, im neutral on this subject. Whichever decision the majority think is best is where i'll stand if nothing else.
 
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