Acausality and Resistances to Paradoxes and Causality Manipulation

[Kaltias]

@Fritzi

What i'm trying to say is that we should never treat a power like an absolute. How many people would be considered as actual acausal in that case, excluding 1-A beings?

Degrees of causality are a thing the same way as, for example, degrees of conceptual manipulation. One could say "but a concept is a concept", but this doesn't mean that the CM of a Low 2-C is going to work against a High 2-A.

Every time that a character is stated to "completely transcend something or exist outside of it" we need to contextualize it taking the setting into account. Otherwise we would have all the characters stated to transcend time and space as 1-A.

 

[Joseph619]

This looks reasonable, we need another page for time paradox resistance/immunity

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm on Kaltias's side here. Causality does matter on your dimensional level.

 

[DaFritzi]

@Kaltias

There are actually not many characters below 1-A that would be considered a true acausal. However that is not important, what's important is to give that title only to those who fit the definition.

The comparison with concept manipulation is complicated as you try to compare an ability with a state of existence. I still disagree with levels of causality/acausality being a thing, but for the sake of convenience those abilities that are similar to acausality (immunity to time paradoxes, etc.) could be treated as lower levels of acausality.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So what about characters like GER? is it still acasual under this new defintion?

 

[Kaltias]

GER isn't acausal though. And this isn't the place to debate it anyway.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@DaFritzi There are not "degrees" of acausality. You are either acausal or you are not. But as always, that depends on your dimensional level. A 4-D being who can move freely through time and space is acausal from our perspective, as they are completely ignoring the natural flow of cause and effect we percieve by doing things like moving back in time and arriving at places before they've left. But for a 5-D being who is watching them, they percieve the cause and effect of the 4-D being's motion perfectly. We always consider powers in terms of their place on dimensional levels, because otherwise we would have things like 3-D people being able to take down infinite-dimensional beings with causality manipulation.

@Iamunanimous why is GER currently listed as acausal?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm sorry. Let me rephrase, it was said that characters whom are acausal wouldn't be affected by GER, now with this new definiton, many characters whom were considered acausal and unaffected by GER, would no longer be considered acausal. Would they be effected by GER?

 

[Kaltias]

Not if they are resistant to causality manipulation or true acausals

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What Kaltias said

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Alright then. So a lot of profiles will have their acausal status replaces with resistance to causality manipulation and paradox immunity?

 

[Kaltias]

Yes. Most of them, actually. This definition of Acausality is way more specific and less common

 

[LordXcano]

There are, at most, 256 characters with acausality on the Wiki. I could do that in a day or two if I was asked to.

Other than that I'm completely good with OP's definition, as well as "Paradox Immunity" for the replacement power.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordXcano Okay. Thank you very much for the offer. It would be very helpful.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Are you willing to create a "Time Paradox Immunity" or "Time Paradox Resistance" page?

 

[Reppuzan]

I'll do it once I get back from class (which will be early morning from the U.S.'s perspective).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps it would be best to divide the description of the ability into simply being resistant to the effects and being fully immune to them?

 

[Kaltias]

How could someone be "resistant" to a time paradox though? You are either affected by it or completely shrug it off.

 

[Reppuzan]

Are you referring to Time Paradox Immunity or Acausality?

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Time Paradox Immunity.

@Kaltias Well, for example, when the Great Intelligence temporarily turned the Doctor's past victories into defeats, the Doctor was very badly affected, but not immediately erased from existence.

 

[Kaltias]

I see. Thanks for the explanation

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

How could someone be "resistant" to a time paradox though? You are either affected by it or completely shrug it off.

And also the most classic example of erasure by time paradoxing of the 80s - Marty McFly. He was fading, but he didn't immediately vanish. Even if he was going to eventually, I would say that qualifies for "resistance".

 

[DaFritzi]

@DaFritzi There are not "degrees" of acausality. You are either acausal or you are not. But as always, that depends on your dimensional level.

As you said you are either acausal or not. It's the same acausality no matter whether you have 3 or 5 dimensions. If you are 3d and a 5d chara wipes your timeline you are as uneffected by that as you are in any other case (sans potent reality warping)

What you are describing might apply to composite hierarchies, but it does not apply to spatial dimensions neither by physical nor by geometrical definition.

There is a misconception about causality and time here. Causality does not need time. It only needs cause and effect. There is no need for time passing between cause and effect.

Example1: a character with infinite speed attacks. The cause (attack) and the effect (damage done) occur in the same moment.

Example2: a character casts a spell that causes a fire in the past. The cause (spell) and the effect (fire in the past) occur in two different points in time but they are not connected by a flow of time.

 

[Reppuzan]

Here's what I've written for Time Paradox Immunity:

"A lesser form of Acausality, this ability is attributed to characters who can interact with others as per the laws of cause and effect but will not be killed or erased from existence if their past self is somehow killed. It is thus possible to defeat these character through conventional means, but it's virtually impossible to do so by killing them in the past with Time Travel or a similar ability."

 

[Kaltias]

@Fritzi

Again, you don't have to reason in terms of absolutes. A character can transcend causality without transcending the entire system as a whole. The same way a character can transcend space and time without being 1-A.

1: That's not outside of time though? It's just instantaneous.

2: That's literally just higher dimensional time.

For example, Amakasu Masahiko can "run faster than causality". This doesn't mean that he transcends causality as a whole, it just means that he transcend linear 3D causality.

 

[DaFritzi]

So you agree that true acausality makes you practically immune to everything including higher dimensional attacks (sans reality warping)?

1: still there is no flow of time between cause and effect

2: not really, super galaxy gurren lagann and many other characters can attack specific points in time without being acausal/having multiple time dimensions

also moving freely along one timeline doesn't mean you have to have more time dimensions. It can also mean that you have one dimension of time but you percieve it differently / are able to interact with it in a different way.

 

[Kaltias]

No. It protects you only within your own level of existence.

1: Actually there is but time is stretched infinitely. It's basically relativity with infinite speed substituting the speed of light as the limit.

2: Never said that the character needs to be higher dimensional. But it needs to be able to affect something throughout time. The SGGL hits in the past and in the future, which means that its attack is travelling in a direction of the time axis that the SGGL itself can't follow (backwards, while the SGGL can only move forward). For 4D beings, the equivalent would be attacking in the past from their perspective, which means attacking through higher dimensional time.

Moving freely along a timeline (Immeasurable speed) does require you to perceive higher dimensional time. Because the normal time is now just a axis of movement. They simply perceive it the same way we perceive normal time. Instant after instant instead of perceiving it as a whole.

 

[Antvasima]

Here's what I've written for Time Paradox Immunity:

"A lesser form of Acausality, this ability is attributed to characters who can interact with others as per the laws of cause and effect but will not be killed or erased from existence if their past self is somehow killed. It is thus possible to defeat these character through conventional means, but it's virtually impossible to do so by killing them in the past with Time Travel or a similar ability."

This seems fine to me. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

As for the discussion between Kaltias and DaFritzi, I am not sure that this is entirely relevant for the subject at hand.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, it's related to the topic of acausality as defensive hax. But I guess that we can message each other on our walls if we are going off-topic here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am just concerned that it will distract from the issue of getting the new powers & abilities page running, and updating the links.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

I've written the page as requested.

However, I'm just curious about one thing, how would this apply to characters whose very existence are paradoxes?

For example, Millenniummo was the result of Machinedramo and Kimeramo fusing after their respective defeats. However, but the game in which Millenniummon makes its first appearance predate Kimeramon's creation by several years.

Thus would they be Acausal, or would they simply have a paradox immunity?

 

[Antvasima]

Paradox Immunity, I think. However, I am not the best person to ask.

 

[LordXcano]

Now that the page is written should I go through and do the edits from acasual to time paradox immunity?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

For the example of Millenniummon, Machinedrammon and Kimeramon, I'll need more details on how the Milleniummon's game predates Kimeramons's

But unless they shoud complete transcendence from cause and effect on their level, I would say that being a living paradox just gives paradox immunity.

Also, I think the acausality page should mention how higher dimensional beings have acausality from the perspective of lower dimensional beings, but would need to show that they transcend causality on their dimensional level in order to have it against opponents on their level (e.g. Mr Myx would definitely be acausal from a 3-D perspective of causality, but he'd need to show he is also transcendent from 5-D causality in order for it to be applicable against other High 2-A's)

 

[Antvasima]

@LordXcano

Yes, thank you, feel free to do so, but it is best if you check if they qualify for full acausality as well (i.e. should keep the ability). For example, as far as I understand, the 1-A beings with the ability listed likely do.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps you can ask here for input regarding the entries that you are uncertain about?

 

[LordXcano]

I'll do that, yes.