Absolute Luck vs Absolute Skill - Hardcore Leveling Warrior vs Ikki Kurogane

[Sir_Ovens]

I said I'd do it, and so I have.

Lucky Ma vs Skill Incarnate

Subjugation Round Arc Ethan and SSSAF Arc Ikki. Speed equalized. Win via SBA.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What can HCLW do?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Well, he can form a bet with Ikki, in which case, the two can set specific rules of engagement. If Ikki breaks said rules, he is immediately attacked by a Low 2-C God or a mediator whom are both resistant to hax on a Low 2-C level because HCLW's betting ability trancends the laws of Lucid Adventure, and thus makes the mediator invulnerable to that extent. After a bet is made, the two will fight with the rules that both agree on, if one gives up or loses the bet, they give up something that they bet on (Strength stats, personal possessions, etc.).

Should Ikki not take the bet, HCLW can still fight him mano-a-mano, albeit HCLW is a cunning and manipulative bastard so it will be hard for Ikki to take him down. HCLW can use Lucky Coins to gain buffs to random stats, but thanks to his luck he always gets the buff he wants or needs at the moment, like speed or strength. Weapon Break destroys weapons on par with HCLW himself. With Nightmarization, he can completely ignore defense and attack Ikki directly. Blocking does nothing against Nightmarization as Nightmare attacks the person directly regardless of defence. Also magic completely bounces off him. He's completely imprevious to magic on his level.

HCLW is also extremely lucky conventionally. He managed to avoid an unavoidable attack by slipping on ice and kicking his opponent in the face. He also narrowly escaped death multiple times throughout the whole series through sheer coincidence.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What kind of bets?

Cunning? Kirihara is cunning. Perfect Vision negs.

Luck? Amane exists. Ikki trashed him, his attacks are unaffected by probability as he takes it into account. Stat amp, ikki fights people stronger and faster on a daily basis but he still has his amps.

Weapon Break? Not against devices.

Nighmarization? How does it attack?

Magic Bounce? Ikki doesn't use magic.

Luck as i said above.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

HCLW can look at a person and know excatly what makes them tick. He can stirke a bet with ikki, putting down something he wants in exchange for something HCLW wants out of Ikki. The two can then set the rules of engagement, like no amps, no equipment, etc. HCLW always skews the bets in his favour by making it luck based, since his luck is insane.

Amane isn't someone who can make a 0.000000000000354470415% chance of happening a reality. Even with probability taken into account, when HCLW's dodging luck is activated, Ikki can't do anything about it because it is a law of Lucid Adventure, which makes it a Low 2-C law. No ammount of skill can outdo a law that specifically states HCLW can't be hit in that instant.

Weapon Break is universal. If it is conceptually a weapon, HCLW can break it.

HCLW himself becomes Nightmarized. All his attacks ignore dura and attack on an existential level.

Ok.

Already made a statement about that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ikki's not one to go like that. He will use everything at his disposal, he's not one to hold back for the sake of being honourable. He's not honourable, trickery suits him most.

He is better than Utakata Misogi who can make anything bigger than 0% a 100%, you know the kind of guy that manipulates probability after he's dead to revive without a scratch, so yes. Yes but "in that instant". Ikki just attacks again.

Yes but "on par with him"...?

Ok but ikki dodges or blocks with his sword...

 

[Epiccheev]

Would Ikki accept the bet if HCLW bets his luck? It's something he will never be able to obtain through conventional training.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hardly, he'll take it all on. Remember his greatest quote:

With my greatest weakness i will defeat your greatest strength.

He will not willingly make an opponent lose his good stuff. He will fight top condition vs top condition.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah, HCLW knows that. With one look, he'll know what kind of person Ikki is. Like I said, the details of the bet can be decided by the both of them. Heck, if both parties wish, the game could be a dice game where the potency of attacks are put up to how much one rolls a set of dice. If Ikki cheats and rolls the dice in a certain unfair way, the mediator will break his hands and Ikki forefits the bet. He losses anything be placed on the bet but the fight can still go on.

Again, unless Ikki is above a law that specifically dodges all manner of what he does against HCLW, he misses.

Yeah, HCLW broke two Nightmare swords, which for all intents and purposes should be way above him in durability, since they trancend the laws of the game and should be completely resistant to a skill that breaks swords.

Blocking with the sword does nothing, the damage is still transfered to Ikki.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Hardly, he'll take it all on. Remember his greatest quote:
With my greatest weakness i will defeat your greatest strength.

He will not willingly make an opponent lose his good stuff. He will fight top condition vs top condition.

HCLW betting his luck doesn't make him lose it until the bet is settled. Likewise, whatever Ikki bets isn't lost until he loses.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Idk what that argument here is Oven. I just said "ikki's not the type to take bets to weaken an opponent" you say "HCLW will know that" like it matters. He's not the type to have an opponent bet anything. As for rolling a dice, can't ikki just calculate how he needs to throw the dice to win?

More info on this dodging law? Is it passive? Is it always on? Why would it be a thing? Can it be tricked?

Then why does he break swords "on par with him"? Im confused.

Eh? How?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

If Ikki just takes the bet without taking anything, it's even better for HCLW. Even if Ikki calculates how he needs to throw the dice, HCLW's luck makes him outdo Ikki's throw. Even if Ikki throws three sixes, HCLW can just match with luck until he wins.

Here's the chapter when HCLW passively activated Lucky Man. The chance of activation is random, but since HCLW is insanely lucky, the activation will most likely happen before he loses. Especially if there is no possibility of him winning. All stats in the game of Lucid Adventure is governed by the laws of the game. If something is deemed imprevious to all damage, for all intents and purposes, it is, regardless of AP to dura difference. Since HCLW's luck trancends the laws of the game as stated multiple times throughout the story, if his luck says he dodges an attack, you'd have to bypass the law that dictates that he dodges the attack in order to hit him.

Actually he doesn't. That part was my mistake. Weapon Break works on anything that is a "weapon".

Nightmare attacks ignore all stats. Even swords have durability stats. Blocking a nightmare attack doesn't work because the attack itself would bypass the durability stat of the weapon and hit the player. Even HCLW's Rank 1 armour, which was - by the law of the game - invulnerable to all physical damage, was completely shattered upon being hit by a Nightmare attack.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ikki got past probability manipulation messing his throws far better than anything he has.

More importantly, Ikki won't bet, period. If he is in a fight, he will fight head on, and luck isn't helping here since he dealt with that already.

Ikki can beat him in one-strike, and he can't beat Ikki fast enough.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think you guys are mistaking Amane's luck and HCLW's luck. HCLW's luck while conventionally is luck, with the rules of Lucid Adventure, his luck becomes a law. If something happens because of his luck, you have to bypass the law of the game that grants him the thing that happens.

Like I said, even if Ikki doesn't bet, HCLW has ways to beat him.

HCLW can tho. He has coins in Nightmarization that buff his stats to 9999. Plus, with Nightmarization, HCLW one shots both with ap and dura neg that attacks the existence of a person,

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You should put HCLW for top 6-C.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dude, Ikki will not bet. He will fight top condition against top condition.

It seems like you're overplaying that law quite a bit. Especially when he outright says that he couldn't dodge that kind of attack. Him slipping against a spear throw doesn't mean much. I'd need to see him dodge an attack that would require him to literally not move (because that would be what Ikki with speed amps would see).

ok...

Ikki dodges then.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok, this isn't a big issue. I'm saying that if Ikki were to bet, he would be subjected to a series of rules.

I'm not. HCLW literally said he couldn't dodge the attack, and yet he did. I'm not "overplaying" the law, it's literally described to be as such. I can show you multiple scans where they say that HCLW's luck transcends the laws of the game. These are the same exact laws that govern literally everything. Hell, people can't even dual weild if they aren't high level enough. They're forced to only use one weapon with both hands because the game says so, even though it's a basic skill.

Ikki can't keep dodging forever, and if they trade blows, even if HCLW gets incaped, Ikki gets his existence erased.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He couldn't dodge the attack, that's why he just teleported outta the way. And luck being laws of the game doesn't mean he dodges even when there's 0% chance of doing so.

He can...he very much can.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Scroll further down. It's the one where the Lucky Man prompt pops up. Also it does, when literally every other law is absolute. If the game says he dodges the attack, he dodges the attack. It's that simple.

And he won't exhaust himself in any way? Because HCLW can go on forever, he's a player character in a simulated world. As long as he has mana to spare, he can continue swiping. More so with Nightmare, since no Nightmare being thus far has ever shown fatigue.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but he doesn't dodge the bombardment cus of luck he specifically says "i couldn't dodge so i teleported away". And, where is the law stating "he dodges"?

Hardly, considering he can attack back, he won't be tired anytime soon and considering how easy it is for Ikki to dodge. But real life HCLW will be tired by then.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You need more than not being shown to be tired to gain infinite stamina...

And can he even stay logged on endlessly? Is time dilated in-game?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes, time is dilated in the game world. The max someone has stayed in the game before being forcefully booted was several months within game time.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes but he doesn't dodge the bombardment cus of luck he specifically says "i couldn't dodge so i teleported away". And, where is the law stating "he dodges"?
Hardly, considering he can attack back, he won't be tired anytime soon and considering how easy it is for Ikki to dodge. But real life HCLW will be tired by then.

If he has the option to do something, he obviously doesn't need the luck. HCLW goes back to level 1 if he dies, he's the only type of character with this weakness. Note that HCLW at his peak was the strongest mortal character in the game, that means he survived everything that could possibly kill him and bring his level back down to 1. Heck, throughout the course of the entire first season, Ethan hasn't died once, even though he had countless near death expereinces he had no right of avoiding. The only time he died, he was immediately resurrected by a God because strange coincidence (Spoiler alert: It was his luck). So if HCLW can do something about an attack, the luck doesn't activate. But if he cannot avoid an attack at all, the luck kicks in.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You still didn't show me that the law states "he dodges".

And if it works if there is 0% probability of happening.

Cus no matter if it's law, luck is luck. Basically just a high chance of things happening, and if this chance were to be 0%?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is not proof that it was an absolute law that could not be defied at all...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Lucky man

>Law that makes him passively dodge.

You do know how different those 2 are right?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The -System- tag only shows when something is dictated by the game. If the game dictates it, it's a law.

Here are a bunch of examples that show that system messages are basically word of god.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah but it didn't say "this attack will be dodged". It just said a skill was activated.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You said this:

Since HCLW's luck trancends the laws of the game as stated multiple times throughout the story, if his luck says he dodges an attack, you'd have to bypass the law that dictates that he dodges the attack in order to hit him.

Law never states he will dodge attacks, just that he'll be lucky. A trait that Ikki will not have trouble against, considering he has fought probability hax before.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Is it even fair to assume the game is Low 2-C, or it's laws are on that level?

Breaking real world laws is certainly not taken as that special, and the real world has a better claim on being a space-time than a virtual reality program does.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Roy Ha explicitly created all the world's laws, and even his children, whom are all Low 2-C themselves, abide by his laws.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Creating a universe isn't Low 2-C tough...

That's, like, 3-A unless something implies that a temporal axis was made, which has no reason to exist in a video game. Unless there is in-game lore to claim it does.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The whole game Lucid Adventure didn't even exist before Roy Han created it. There was conceptually, nothing. There wouldn't even have been a time because the place where that time would have existed just straight up wasn't concieved. Also, it's very clearly a space-time that he created because time flows differently in the game world than in the real world. Roy created a whole new timeline.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is not how we take virtual reality games. We aren't making Kayaba (and Kirito with god mode) Low 2-C because he programmed the whole thing, and the game wasn't conceptualized before he made it.

It is a program. Unless in-game lore mentions concepts, time or any such, it's just a game having been created, and even from in-game prespective creating it is 3-A. You need either proof of past and future being actual things that exist in the game or it's lore, or none of that matters.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Lucid Adventure isn't a conventional game. It was literally magic'd into existence by a witch who granted Roy Han his wish and gave him the power to create his own universe that just happened to turn into a video game.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Lucid Adventure isn't a conventional game. It was literally magic'd into existence by a witch who granted Roy Han his wish and gave him the power to create his own universe that just happened to turn into a video game.

It created the world based on what he imagined it to be like.

That does not mean he created a whole temporal axis for it out of nowhere. Because the creation of the world didn't make time from what is showed.

It just shows each building, NPC, etc. being created based on his program out of nowhere with their memories. He didn't make it's time, which is why he can't just time travel at will to any point, or why he can't decide what the future will be.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ikki FRA

 

[Ionliosite]

Ikki FRA. Man, we should upgrade Underworld's creator to 3-C now, because Kirito said it was galaxy-sized.

 

[Schnee_One]

I don't see the problem