About Undertale

[SomebodyData]

Is that really? I didn't know that moving where there was no time was immeasureable, interesting.

@Matt I was refering to your previous comments when you replied to this

Not a screenshot but here's the quote from the sans fight proving multiple timelines at least our reports showed a massive anomaly in the spacetime continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting ...As for the example with omega flowey, his use of save states shows that he was able to jump at will between more than one timeline as it suited him. Since Asriel is Omega Flowey with an extra composite soul It's not too much to assume Asriel has comperable abilities

And you said this:

"Yup, basically this.

God Flowey proves Immeasurable speeds."

I just assumed you misread, I didn't actually know you were trying to say that jumping between time space continumms make people immeasureable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, it is.

The speed statistic should be listed as "Immeasurable" only if a character is completely transcendental to the distance, time, and causality of a normal universal continuum.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I did a thing.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Azzy being able to move without time means you transcend time? Can I ask whats the difference of moving without time and an moving in paused time, it seems i have some misconceptions.

Also, going off of what Matt agreed to, moving through time space continumms is also immeasurable?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@SD

No. Destroying the timeline you previously existed in while suffering no ill effects and then proceeding to fight through a higher level of time means immeasurable speeds.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Ever I see, thanks for that nitbit of info i guess.

Although I still want to know about how going through time space contiumms makes you immeasureable, although I think that would be a better thing to ask Matt since he seemed to understand it.

 

[Fllflourine]

Would Flowey and Asriel be a similar relationship to Frisk and Chara? That could be an explanation for his full power being Omnipresent, as Chara is also Omnipresent in their true form.

So the reasoning for fraction-of-power Asriel's Immeasurable speeds is scaling from Omega Flowey? That seems reasonable.

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy apologies for somewhat derailing the topic then, but I wasn't giving an opinion on this thread. I was just saying I agree with SD's sentiment that questioning the reasoning of a stat =/= questioning the stat itself.

 

[SomebodyData]

Although, you haven't answered my question... where was it stated that Asriel (or Omega Flowey since you say he was an example) that he was composed of multiple timelines.

Oh and since people misread me, I'm asking for where they were stated to be composed of timelines, not in control. Being composed and controlling of something are two different things (For example a version of Sailor Moon has completer control over all matter, doesn't make her omnipresent)

And again, since people misread me, I'm not denying that Asriel is omnipresent, I'm asking for the evidence behind this:

"You asked for proof of Asriel being composed of multiple timelines. I gave you proof by answering with two weaker characters who fulfil that criteria, one of whom is actually Asriel."

^Also doesn't this be extension make Omega Flowey (which I'm assuming is what you meant) omnipresent? (This thread may become upgrades lol)

I want proof for nothing else.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am assuming that by "composed" you mean he covers all of said timelines.

If you do not, I have no idea what you're asking for.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah pretty much

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think I might have mentioned this before, but this is just in case I didn't.

During the fight with Sans, he mentions monitoring multiple timelines, but refers to them as part of the same general existence (sort of like a multiverse). The fight with Omega Flowey shows that a single entity is capable of maintaining multiple timelines simultaneously, so it's clearly not bound to a single one.

Chara, a much weaker entity than Asriel (as they were at the end of the game, at least), is a multiversal constant. There is only one Chara who exists, and after you allow them to maintain their power, they remain throughout all timelines, showing it is in fact the same Chara.

The same, logically, should be able to be said for Asriel. Especially since the only thing which essentially undoes the happy ending Asriel creates for everyone is a True Reset, which wipes EVERYTHING instead of just a single timeline.

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, yes it shows they're not bound by any single one, but it doesn't show they are/cover all the timelines

Probelm is, that the reason why Chara became omnipresent was due to becoming the concept of stats themselves,

Meanwhile Asriel while he is far stronger, doesn't actually become a concept much like Chara. Also, doesn't Chara survive the true reset?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Covering is usually expressed as differently than "are", even though with omnipresence they should be the same thing. Existing simultaneously in all timelines is used to show omnipresent, but very rarely does someone say something like "I am all timelines".

Chara "becoming stats" is because they became an abstract entity. Asriel does this as well, he's just not the same as a living concept. He's not exactly the best at subtlety, considering part of his mind is still childlike. However, being the "God of Hyperdeath" as opposed to the "Demon that Comes When People Call Its Name" doesn't change the fact that he gained enough Determination from the stolen SOULs to become a powerful entity transcending time and space and capable of controlling reality.

Chara only survives a True Reset if the Player gives in and offers up their SOUL, and the reason then is because Chara is then bound to the Player and no longer part of the world getting reset.

 

[Voidchimera]

Definitely not because when it comes to the UT-verse people instantly jump to the highest tier a feat would be indicitive of and assume 4th wall breaking = acausal multiverse-level omnipotence. Same reason the Annoying Dog used to have Hyperverse level AP :S

I agree with most people here though, total control of the timeline(s) + a few Multiverse level powers pretty much gives him total control of the UT multiverse (or would, if Frisk didn't stop him)

Also both him and Omega Flowey are the same Attack Potency, despite it saying Asriel dwarfs OF's by an infinte amount? That should really be cleaned up lol.

Azathoth, isn't that final statment kinda total conjecture?

Also, what's with the huge blob of removed comments?

 

[SomebodyData]

I see, in that case, what is the evidence that suggests the omnipresence beyond the timeline hes shown to be omnipresent in?

Being an abstract entity doesn't guarntee omnipresence in the slightest, in Chara's case, it was because she became both a concept and abstract, while Asriel is far powerful, no doubt about that, it doesn't mean that he became omnipresent throughout the entire multiverse /become a concept.

Ah I see... So Chara is a hitchhiking concept. I've seen weirder stuff in fiction.

 

[FroggitTheEthernalGod]

Definitely not because when it comes to the UT-verse people instantly jump to the highest tier a feat would be indicitive of and assume 4th wall breaking = acausal multiverse-level omnipotence. Same reason the Annoying Dog used to have Hyperverse level AP :S
I agree with most people here though, total control of the timeline(s) + a few Multiverse level powers pretty much gives him total control of the UT multiverse (or would, if Frisk didn't stop him)

Also both him and Omega Flowey are the same Attack Potency, despite it saying Asriel dwarfs OF's by an infinte amount? That should really be cleaned up lol.

Azathoth, isn't that final statment kinda total conjecture?

Also, what's with the huge blob of removed comments?

Infinity times Infinite power is still just Infinite Power.

And Annoying Dog literally is Toby Fox who created the UT hyperverse.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Froggit there are levels of infinity

 

[FroggitTheEthernalGod]

@Froggit there are levels of infinity

Depending on what you mean with Infinity. If you mean the infinity from the extended real or complex number line, which is pretty much the gold standard for infinity, ∞ times ∞ is still ∞.

 

[SomebodyData]

I meant infinity in terms of how our system works.

I.e. High 3-A = infinite 3-D power

2-A = infinite 4-D power

Etc, etc...

 

[FroggitTheEthernalGod]

I meant infinity in terms of how our system works.
I.e. High 3-A = infinite 3-D power

2-A = infinite 4-D power

Etc, etc...

OK, but how can either Omega Flowey or Asriel be higher than 2D if their sprites are neither 3D models nor a 3D projection?

 

[Squid_peanut]

I meant infinity in terms of how our system works.
I.e. High 3-A = infinite 3-D power

2-A = infinite 4-D power

Etc, etc...

OK, but how can either Omega Flowey or Asriel be higher than 2D if their sprites are neither 3D models nor a 3D projection?

because sprites being flat on a screen does not make their reality flat unless intentionally stated

 

[Fllflourine]

I meant infinity in terms of how our system works.
I.e. High 3-A = infinite 3-D power

2-A = infinite 4-D power

Etc, etc...

OK, but how can either Omega Flowey or Asriel be higher than 2D if their sprites are neither 3D models nor a 3D projection?

By that logic, wouldn't we also downgrade many incarnations of Mario to 2D as well?

 

[Voidchimera]

@Froggit there are levels of infinity

Depending on what you mean with Infinity. If you mean the infinity from the extended real or complex number line, which is pretty much the gold standard for infinity, ∞ times ∞ is still ∞.

Nope. An infinite line x another infinite line = an infinite plane, infinity ^ 2. Take calculus, you'll know the distinction is very real.

Not even gonna weigh in on Froggit's second statement =_=

 

[Ryukama]

By that logic, wouldn't we also downgrade many incarnations of Mario to 2D as well?

TOAA, Creator, Undoubtedly First, etc. are all drawn in 2-D. Guess we need to downgrade every Tier 0 to 11-A lol

 

[FroggitTheEthernalGod]

@Froggit there are levels of infinity

Depending on what you mean with Infinity. If you mean the infinity from the extended real or complex number line, which is pretty much the gold standard for infinity, ∞ times ∞ is still ∞.

Nope. An infinite line x another infinite line = an infinite plane, infinity ^ 2. Take calculus, you'll know the distinction is very real.
Not even gonna weigh in on Froggit's second statement =_=

Nope, a infinite plane = ∞cm┬▓, while an infinite line is ∞cm. Calculus has nothing to do with this, this is about geometry. And since lim x^2= ∞ with xÔåÆ∞, ∞┬▓ is still just ∞.

By that logic, wouldn't we also downgrade many incarnations of Mario to 2D as well?

TOAA, Creator, Undoubtedly First, etc. are all drawn in 2-D. Guess we need to downgrade every Tier 0 to 11-A lol

The creator and UF aren´t even shown so you can´t really tell how many dimensions they have. But you are right that the Primal Monitor should get downgraded as PM is just a 2D plane.

 

[Ryukama]

@Froggit the point is that claiming a character is two dimensional because they were drawn in 2-D is absolutely absurd. And TOAA and Creator like I said have been illustrated to be 2-D within their stories. Almost everyone here is drawn 2 dimensionally. Do you honestly think the majority of all characters to be Tier 11 with Rocky Balboa being among the god tiers since he is shown in 3-D?

 

[Voidchimera]

~snipity~

Nope, a infinite plane = ∞cm┬▓, while an infinite line is ∞cm. Calculus has nothing to do with this, this is about geometry. And since lim x^2= ∞ with xÔåÆ∞, ∞┬▓ is still just ∞.

Yes, but ∞cm^2 is NOT equal to ∞cm. Calculus has everything to do with it, actually. Your second and forth statments show a fundimental misunderstanding. What is the limit of ((X^2)/X) as X approaches infinity?

If what you say is true, if "∞┬▓ is still just ∞" then the limit of ((X^2)/X) as X--> ∞ would be incorrectly found to be 1, since the "equivalent" top and bottom can be cancled before we even take the limit, converting the problem to lim(x-->∞){1}, However, if we do not make this error, we come to an indeterminate form of ∞/∞, which is resolved using l'hopital's rule, to find the solution to ∞. Thus, we have proved that (∞ != ∞┬▓)

This relationship is shown when dealing with higher order geometries as well, as a matter of fact, that's what the rating system of this site is entirely based on. Are you calling that into question? Because that is not really a debatable topic, and either way, this is certaintly not the place to do it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeaah,can this thread go back on topic?

 

[Fllflourine]

Last time I checked, we were talking about the evidence for Asriel being omnipresent in multiple timelines IIRC.

 

[SomebodyData]

Alright, lets see, what was the evidence for him being omnipresent in multiple timelines again?

 

[Fllflourine]

Well the reasoning for his Omniprescence is coming from him supposedly existing throughout all time and space, as well as achieving power throughout all aspects of existence, and probably scaling from Omega Flowey, whom he dwarfs by an infinite amount. That and he supposedly stopped Frisk from being able to do literally anything, but that could just be hax, like with Sans.

Also, an argument for Omnipresent Asriel (across multiple timelines) could be that Asriel was ending the whole world, and thus every Universe within it all at once, and Frisk tried to access their SAVEs, but nothing happened. I'm not sure how Asriel would be able to do that if he was just Immeasurable or Omnipresent within just one timeline.

In addition, Flowey and Asriel could be a similar relationship to Frisk and Chara, where Asriel and Chara respectively are the incorporeal omnipresents who are attached to Flowey and Frisk. But then again, Flowey is a direct resurrection of Asriel, albeit soulless, and while it's kind of implied Frisk is Chara resurrected, IIRC, that's just theories.

 

[SomebodyData]

However, hes only been shown to be omnipresent in the timeline he calls Frisk in, and dwarfing Omega Flowey by an infinite amount is not proof of omnipresence rather an upgrade to High 2-A (Where does 2-A Omega Flowey come from anyways?)

Its pretty simple actually, he just ends the entire multiverse, it really requires no special speed whatsover

What? We don't accept theories here...

 

[Fllflourine]

However, hes only been shown to be omnipresent in the timeline he calls Frisk in, and dwarfing Omega Flowey by an infinite amount is not proof of omnipresence rather an upgrade to High 2-A (Where does 2-A Omega Flowey come from anyways?)
Its pretty simple actually, he just ends the entire multiverse, it really requires no special speed whatsover

What? We don't accept theories here...

2-A Omega Flowey comes from him being stronger than Chara (via statement and him being supposedly "LV 9999" and him being able to destroy the game. Also, 6 SOULs).

I'm still questioning Asriel's omniprescence (across the multiverse of course), though the reasoning on him being Omnipresent on his profile does need improvements.

 

[SomebodyData]

Then why isn't Asriel High 2-A? Not sure what LV 9999 and 6 souls have to do with this

Yeah... Kinda my stance too...