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Entirely transcending infinite dimensions should absolutely be "qualitative superiority" of it. Especially entirely transcending infinite dimensions, then entirely transcending that, then entirely transcending that... ad infinitum.
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About the I/O profiles
- Thread starter Kepekley23
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- i/o tenchi muyo!
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Infinitely transcending an infinite-dimensional construct is an increase by a single degree of infinity, on its own. This is "infinity + 1", and not enough proof on its own for 1-A.Ryukama said:
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By entirely transcending, I mean "beyond the very idea of infinite dimensions" or being beyond that. Not just infinitely stronger than High 1-B.
And Tenchi's proof for 1-A is enough? I'm sorry but I'm always going to disagree with the way we rate that. But
And Tenchi's proof for 1-A is enough? I'm sorry but I'm always going to disagree with the way we rate that. But
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That would be 1-A, yes. But that hasn't been demonstrated yet, and I thought you were arguing for it, here?Ryukama said:
You can ask Ant on the subject of Tenchi, if you like, as I'm just explaining why we rate the verse as we do, right now.
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I was under the impression that dreaming something up is treated as true transcendence. If not then I'm fine with just High 1-B.
I already did. I'm not fully satisfied with the reasonings for the ratings. But I'll accept what the majority of the site feels and I don't feel too comfortably trying to make some huge thread without more research.
Sorry for a little derail. However bringing up how we apply our standards to other verses is important in determining how we should in the current case is important and related.
I already did. I'm not fully satisfied with the reasonings for the ratings. But I'll accept what the majority of the site feels and I don't feel too comfortably trying to make some huge thread without more research.
Sorry for a little derail. However bringing up how we apply our standards to other verses is important in determining how we should in the current case is important and related.
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We usually treat something as being a dream/fictional as "at least one degree of infinity up", in most cases. That is unless the verse itself treats it differently.
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No problem.
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I just copied DarkLK's and the ACF wiki's reasoning for why the Choushin are 1-A, which is that even the most advanced extremely futuristic scientific database in the universe, which explicitly can form a hypothesis for any type of higher-dimensional being, cannot do so for Tokimi.
That said, I am uncertain if Kami Tenchi is really tier 0, or just a higher degree of 1-A, but am waiting for DarkLK to finish reading the (poor) English translations of the Tenchi Muyo GXP novels that I sent to him before making any changes based on hearsay.
That said, I am uncertain if Kami Tenchi is really tier 0, or just a higher degree of 1-A, but am waiting for DarkLK to finish reading the (poor) English translations of the Tenchi Muyo GXP novels that I sent to him before making any changes based on hearsay.
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Why wouldn't "any type of higher dimensional being" just mean any higher dimensional being that exists within Tenchi? Is there any proof that there are infinite dimensional beings in the verse or that there are infinite dimensions at all?
The fact that the scientists can fathom X being but can't fathom Tokimi simply means Tokimi is above X being. This does not prove that Tokimi dwarfs X being like a High 1-B dwarfs a 10-B and that Tokimi is completely and utterly transcendental of the entire plane of existence in which X being lives in. Or that Tokimi is vastly superior to being infinite degrees of infinity above X being.
This issue is especially apparent when we have no evidence as to how powerful X being really is and that there's no proof X being is actually infinite dimensional.
The fact that the scientists can fathom X being but can't fathom Tokimi simply means Tokimi is above X being. This does not prove that Tokimi dwarfs X being like a High 1-B dwarfs a 10-B and that Tokimi is completely and utterly transcendental of the entire plane of existence in which X being lives in. Or that Tokimi is vastly superior to being infinite degrees of infinity above X being.
This issue is especially apparent when we have no evidence as to how powerful X being really is and that there's no proof X being is actually infinite dimensional.
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Well, given that this is the most advanced futuristic database in the Tenchi universe, I find it extremely unlikely that it could not create a hypothesis for something like a Hilbert space, but it was unable to conceive Tokimi in any way. I have no problem with the ACF wiki ratings in this regard.
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So if any supergenius scientist cannot comprehend or in anyway hypothesize a higher cosmic being said being is 1-A? Since they would be smarter than someone who did hypothesize Hilbert space?
"Any type of higher dimensional being" should only refer to any type of higher dimensional being that exists within the verse. Dragon Ball does not have infinite dimensional beings. Therefore their statements regarding "any being" within the series cannot scale to infinite dimensional beings.
But for the sake of argument sure the super scientists can fathom an infinite dimensional being yet can't fathom Tokimi. Again This does not prove that Tokimi dwarfs that infinite dimensional being like a High 1-B dwarfs a 10-B and that Tokimi is completely and utterly transcendental of the entire plane of existence in which the infinite dimensional being resides in. Or that Tokimi is vastly superior to being infinite degrees of infinity above the infinite dimensional being.
I personally feel if we put TM under the same scrutiny as we do with other verses, they wouldn't be 1-A.
"Any type of higher dimensional being" should only refer to any type of higher dimensional being that exists within the verse. Dragon Ball does not have infinite dimensional beings. Therefore their statements regarding "any being" within the series cannot scale to infinite dimensional beings.
But for the sake of argument sure the super scientists can fathom an infinite dimensional being yet can't fathom Tokimi. Again This does not prove that Tokimi dwarfs that infinite dimensional being like a High 1-B dwarfs a 10-B and that Tokimi is completely and utterly transcendental of the entire plane of existence in which the infinite dimensional being resides in. Or that Tokimi is vastly superior to being infinite degrees of infinity above the infinite dimensional being.
I personally feel if we put TM under the same scrutiny as we do with other verses, they wouldn't be 1-A.
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Well, I am just going by what DarkLK told me, but the Choushin are beyond all scientific conceptualisation and definition by the most advanced scientific database in the universe, so I personally think that their rating makes sense. Kami Tenchi I am not nearly as sure about though.
In any case, we are derailing this thread. It is probably better if you ask DarkLK about this via his message wall.
In any case, we are derailing this thread. It is probably better if you ask DarkLK about this via his message wall.
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In addition, there was the following aspect, mentioned in the Tenchi Muyo! verse page explanation section:
"The crucial information for their statistics lies in the original Japanese terms. There is a fairly clear separation between Kō jigen (Ú½ÿµ¼íÕàâ) and Chō jigen (ÞÂർíÕàâ).
Kō jigen = higher dimensions = realms beyond understanding, beyond physics, but which can still be evaluated as existing and somehow justified logically (That is, you can call it 5-D or 10-D, etcetera).
Chō jigen (ÞÂർíÕàâ) = super dimension = It is not Kō jigen. This has a fundamental difference with Kō jigen, it does not exist in any sense as Kō jigen, it can not be logically justified as Kō jigen, and it is plainly said to be beyond Kō jigen (that is literally "beyond higher dimensions")."
"The crucial information for their statistics lies in the original Japanese terms. There is a fairly clear separation between Kō jigen (Ú½ÿµ¼íÕàâ) and Chō jigen (ÞÂർíÕàâ).
Kō jigen = higher dimensions = realms beyond understanding, beyond physics, but which can still be evaluated as existing and somehow justified logically (That is, you can call it 5-D or 10-D, etcetera).
Chō jigen (ÞÂർíÕàâ) = super dimension = It is not Kō jigen. This has a fundamental difference with Kō jigen, it does not exist in any sense as Kō jigen, it can not be logically justified as Kō jigen, and it is plainly said to be beyond Kō jigen (that is literally "beyond higher dimensions")."
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To repeat all the same thing that I said earlier? Sigh.Antvasima said:
Problems with scientific definition are NOT a justification of their tiers, it is only a clarifying addition.
"Higher levels" is not an exact translation here. In fact, he is said Kō jigen (higher dimension). That is literally "beyond even higher dimensions".
And then we have two different terms.
- Kō jigen (Ú½ÿµ¼íÕàâ) = higher dimensions = realms beyond understanding, beyond lower physics, but which can still be evaluated as existing and somehow justified logically.
- Chō jigen (ÞÂർíÕàâ) = super/hyper-dimension = It is not higher dimension, it does not exist in any sense as higher dimensions, it can not be logically justified as higher dimensions, but it's literally "beyond even higher dimensions".
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Okay. My apologies about being too demanding. I just thought that it might be easier for you if you simply ask him some polite questions about the novels via private messages in the message board that I linked you to.
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I'm heading to bed. I'll talk to y'all later. I just took a abunch of scans from the final route, which makes things both so much better yet so much worse. See, its a world (the metapohorical moon) above the infinite dimensional spiral, Beyond all concept of time and space.
However, they said that they are moving as light. This may be a metaphor, but the author seems to think that being able to move at light speed would make all time irrelevent. So they are beyond all time and space, past and future are totally irrelevent to them, but they are also talking about electrons.
I'm getting some weird stuff about them technically being in the universe, but they also are the universe and are above are conceptually above time and space. I'm getting some Masadaverse vibes here, with them being universes but also above the concept of time and space.
Don't even get me started on what that final segment was with them becoming a 2 triangles, each one being like the father son and holy spirit, then both the triangles came together in one shape. But then they got that rotating orbs going on, which may also be part of the same being. I guess that was all to give the 2 Godesses of Cyberspace form apart from just being the pure essence of Information.
However, they said that they are moving as light. This may be a metaphor, but the author seems to think that being able to move at light speed would make all time irrelevent. So they are beyond all time and space, past and future are totally irrelevent to them, but they are also talking about electrons.
I'm getting some weird stuff about them technically being in the universe, but they also are the universe and are above are conceptually above time and space. I'm getting some Masadaverse vibes here, with them being universes but also above the concept of time and space.
Don't even get me started on what that final segment was with them becoming a 2 triangles, each one being like the father son and holy spirit, then both the triangles came together in one shape. But then they got that rotating orbs going on, which may also be part of the same being. I guess that was all to give the 2 Godesses of Cyberspace form apart from just being the pure essence of Information.
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Here is another batch of scans.
Here is proof that the Spiral Tower is indeed the Infinite Hierarchy. Also the only partial contradiction to the hierarchy being infinite, of the many statements that the hierarchy is clearly infinite. I explain how it is more poor word choice that makes this seem like a contradiction. Getting all Dark Tower up in here lol
Here is the start of the last route were they enter the world beyond the hierarchy. Beyond all time and space. Everything exists and nothing exists. Things only get more complicated from here lol. But here we go, proof of a Qualitative difference between the hierarchy, and a 1-A status.
More scans to come later
Here is proof that the Spiral Tower is indeed the Infinite Hierarchy. Also the only partial contradiction to the hierarchy being infinite, of the many statements that the hierarchy is clearly infinite. I explain how it is more poor word choice that makes this seem like a contradiction. Getting all Dark Tower up in here lol
Here is the start of the last route were they enter the world beyond the hierarchy. Beyond all time and space. Everything exists and nothing exists. Things only get more complicated from here lol. But here we go, proof of a Qualitative difference between the hierarchy, and a 1-A status.
More scans to come later
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On a side note, can I make some edits to Enlil's profile? Its missing several things. Like there is no mention of her swordsmanship (its there, but not linked to weapon mastery), martial arts, or Weather Manipulation.
I just need it open
I just need it open
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When all this is done, I'm definitely going through and rewriting many of these descriptions for the profiles. like, what the hell is:
" A mysterious stranger appearing in unexpected places. A person wrapped in mysteries. " - Enlil's profile
That's not a profile description that's a snaple fact.
" A mysterious stranger appearing in unexpected places. A person wrapped in mysteries. " - Enlil's profile
That's not a profile description that's a snaple fact.
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Im sorry, both Ant and Iapetus, but there is absolutely no proof of a 1-A character. The best feat shown so far is at best baseline High 1-B.
The existence of a possibly dimensionless realm beyond the dimensions does not make any character 1-A.
The existence of a possibly dimensionless realm beyond the dimensions does not make any character 1-A.
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That's definitely a 1-A place though.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Yeah, but I said that before I even checked the pictures. I had just waken up.
I feel that every time Iapetus is delivering a new set of images, he is exaggerating things slightly. He's done with the hierarchy images, Marduk's world, etc.
For example:
"The moon in I/O is above the hierarchy of infinite dimensions". Literally what? You can't drop something as weird as that and give no explanation. How does that even work, anyway?
And the descriptions of the place beyond the tower are not 1-A in the slightest.
"There is no past, present, or future. There is no here, there, or anywhere."
You can literally have this with a 5th Dimensional realm beyond our space and time.
And right after that:
"The interval between every single thing. An interim. A place that can be seen when overlooking everything."
That outright debunks it transcending the hierarchy, as it is described as an interval / interim between every single place and time. Meaning that it exists in the "gaps" between the space and time of every place in the hierarchy, not above it.
As for the tower...
First the characters speculate about being inside an Infinite loop, which puts a dent in the theory that it is an infinite hierarchy of spatial-temporal dimensions.
Also, Ishtar describs it as a Recursive Call, which is something in computer programming where a procedure keeps on repeating itself. Which definitely fits with it being an infinite loop, and not an infinite hierarchy.
After Ishtar explains what a Recursive Call is to then, they stop thinking that the tower is infinite. They even outright state it. The Infinite Tower isn't infinite, it just appears to be infinite due to being made of Recursive Calls. The very method with which they'll solve the tower is based on repetition and trial and error, something that would be impossible with a truly infinite Tower.
After experiencing hundreds of millions of possible outputs every instant, they believe to be near the tower's end. Wow, it's like they could not make it more obvious that it is not infinite
I feel that every time Iapetus is delivering a new set of images, he is exaggerating things slightly. He's done with the hierarchy images, Marduk's world, etc.
For example:
"The moon in I/O is above the hierarchy of infinite dimensions". Literally what? You can't drop something as weird as that and give no explanation. How does that even work, anyway?
And the descriptions of the place beyond the tower are not 1-A in the slightest.
"There is no past, present, or future. There is no here, there, or anywhere."
You can literally have this with a 5th Dimensional realm beyond our space and time.
And right after that:
"The interval between every single thing. An interim. A place that can be seen when overlooking everything."
That outright debunks it transcending the hierarchy, as it is described as an interval / interim between every single place and time. Meaning that it exists in the "gaps" between the space and time of every place in the hierarchy, not above it.
As for the tower...
First the characters speculate about being inside an Infinite loop, which puts a dent in the theory that it is an infinite hierarchy of spatial-temporal dimensions.
Also, Ishtar describs it as a Recursive Call, which is something in computer programming where a procedure keeps on repeating itself. Which definitely fits with it being an infinite loop, and not an infinite hierarchy.
After Ishtar explains what a Recursive Call is to then, they stop thinking that the tower is infinite. They even outright state it. The Infinite Tower isn't infinite, it just appears to be infinite due to being made of Recursive Calls. The very method with which they'll solve the tower is based on repetition and trial and error, something that would be impossible with a truly infinite Tower.
After experiencing hundreds of millions of possible outputs every instant, they believe to be near the tower's end. Wow, it's like they could not make it more obvious that it is not infinite
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So, in retrospect.
It is like interpreting this line here from Warhammer as to mean it is referring to infinite spatial dimensions:
The Hidden Library is infinite in dimensions and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time.
- Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.)
At first glance it might seem that it is, but the term "infinite in dimensions" is extremely ambiguous, and could in fact be referring to any object that is limited in its number of dimensions, but the dimensions themselves stretch infinitely. Think a cube with values of infinity for X, Y, and Z.
Your examples as of late have been even more ambiguous.
- Even if the tower was infinite, it would only be infinite in the same way an infinite 3-Dimensional object is infinite, as there is no proof of the tower being composed of infinite steps that are each infinitely larger, or anything like that.
- Most of the characters don't believe it to be the case, thinking that the tower simply appears infinite because it is looped on itself.
- This is later debunked to be the case, as the tower is simply programmed on self-repeating recursive calls.
- Knowing that, they realize that by sheer trial and error they will be able to perform every single possible output in the tower, it will just take an extremely long time.
- After spending an undetermined amount of time attempting hundreds of millions of possible outputs per instant, they reach the end of the tower.
- The outside of the tower doesn't transcend it, but rather exists in the intervals between space and time
- Furthermore, it is described as a way that would fit a 5th Dimensional place, not a Dimensionless realm.
It is like interpreting this line here from Warhammer as to mean it is referring to infinite spatial dimensions:
The Hidden Library is infinite in dimensions and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time.
- Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.)
At first glance it might seem that it is, but the term "infinite in dimensions" is extremely ambiguous, and could in fact be referring to any object that is limited in its number of dimensions, but the dimensions themselves stretch infinitely. Think a cube with values of infinity for X, Y, and Z.
Your examples as of late have been even more ambiguous.
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I'm not sure what is better. The fact that I'm supposed to believe in High 1-B rain, or in a High 1-B MMO Mascot.Iapitus The Impaler said:
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ƒæÇ.
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Yeah. Those scans don't seem to provide evidence that the "tower" is composed of infinite spatial or temporal dimensions. And travelling to a place where there is no "past, present or future" or "here, there, or anywhere" is by no means qualification for tier 1-A.
And again, the characters (at least those who are currently rated as baseline 1-A) are specifically stated to be limited by quantum physics.
And again, the characters (at least those who are currently rated as baseline 1-A) are specifically stated to be limited by quantum physics.
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i don't think a looped tower would quantify as much cuz doesn't it just well...loop?? Like going in a circle repeating shit instead?
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It isn't even looped. It is a recursion.
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