About Stomp matches

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Well then there is your problem. Everyone else considers decisive matches as valid while you consider them stomps. Problem solved, we have found the root of the issue.

That's incredibly arbitrary and flawed, and no one agrees with those terms of "fairness." Also, this could never work due to probability hax, enhanced luck, and fate manipulation being bias against

 

[Overlord775]

Passive probability hax, fate and omega level luck cause passive haxstomps

also you haven't actually explained why a frikkin UNFAIR match should be added since it's an UNFAIR battle

and if an opponent doesn't even have a 3%, hell, even a 1% chance of winning, is that even a fight ?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Why? all they do is increase the chance that they have their win conditions reached. People who can manipulate probability or draw the outcomes they want from circumstances are the main flaw with your system.

Unfair, but not a stomp. There is a difference, that you cannot seem to draw. Karna vs Ruler Sherlock is decisive, but it is by no means fair. A match does not need to be fair to be notable or valid.

Yes, because a decisive outcome does not make it any less valid. Hard counters and more exist. Percentages are also extremely flawed. Take someone like The Kinetopede Captain who knows exactly what actions to take to draw the senerio and outcome they want out of a situation. Percentages could never really quantify that. It does not make the match any less hard, or difficult. You cannot quantify by ways of percentage. Musashi backed by Gudako vs Saber Kojiro is a fight that will conclusively end in Musashi's favour every time, but that makes it no less decisive or valid. Difficulty is something else you fail to account for.

 

[Overlord775]

Those hax vary a lot in power, for exemple unless you resist 11 eyes' fate hax you cannot win against her, while lesser forms of fate hax are just an inconvinience, this applies tot he other 2 haxs too

also it doesn't matter, as if someone is able to manipulate the chances of their success to a major degree then they have 100% chances of winning and the match is a stomp

Karna is a top tier servant while Sherlock is a low-mid tier servant, so it's probably a stomp.

and define the diffence between "unfair" and "stomp"

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Don't know who they are, but if they are something like the oracle, then sure.

But someone like the Kinetopede Captain isn't changing their percentage, they can just draw on the 1% to get the outcome they want

The important part is that Ruler always has the ability to find a win condition on someone given enough time. Hence it is not a stomp so long as he has enough time to find it before he loses.

Simple. Unfair has one side incredibly unlikely to win, or a match that drastically favours one side. A stomp would be when one side lacks any win conditions to draw on. Whether or not they draw on these win conditions are another issue.

 

[Overlord775]

Kinetopede Captain's thing seems like nigh gurren lagann level probability hax, which caused a lot of matched to be closed as stomps

NLF

And isn't something a battle where "one side incredibly unlikely to win " and " a match that drastically favours one side " even remotly considerable a Notable Victory ?

At some point of the scale it stops being a fight and it's more of a massacre

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

He isn't changing probability at all tho, he just knows exactly what needs to be done to draw on the desied outcome.

There are definitely NLF to be had with such an ability, but it is not Karna where that gets drawn. He managed to pull his ability to deduce impossible info on a Beast servant, but that is beside the point.

Of course. For an example I already gave, Musashi backed by Gudako vs Saber Kojiro. A very notable match but in this match Musashi would always come out on top.

"Massacres" can be notable too. So long as one side has win conditions.

 

[Overlord775]

That's some crazy precog then, which if the opponent has no counter to could easilly lead to a stomp

So nothing stops Karna frm just using a mana burst on Sherlock before he has even the slightest chance to win, so stomp since his abilities won't actually save him in any shenario

Musagi vs Kojiro was stated by WoG to end in a endless stalemate

how can a a massacre be a notable win ?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

They can counter it. Its not a stomp since they have win conditions, he just knows how to avoid that shit.

There you go, decisively in favour of Karna. The main thing that would stop him is intercepting with one of his special moves.

Clearly you haven't played or been following the events, because Musashi won since she had a better master that let her pull out of the stalemate and win.

Boros vs Saitama. Kamome vs Medaka. DIO vs Kakyoin. There. 3 In universe "massacres" where both sides have win conditions and are still notable wins.

 

[Overlord775]

Sherlock's ability creates a solution in the world, but without prep time he can't access it, so he's literally a weaponless human against a lion

Boros vs Saitama is a main stable stomp as Boros couldn't do anything to win and everything he tried was noped

Kamome vs Medaka aka lol copy your powers ur gay

DIO vs Kakyoin, saying that the MILF hunter had even a slight chance is ridicolus, time stop GG to anything he could have tried to do

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

So he better dash and grab it. Althought you are right that he is more of a prep servant, and would be a better match if he had prep. (although the secret to victory would be to transform into a Brahman, whom Karna cannot refuse requests from, even if he knows the one asking is fake, and he cannot lay a hand on them, even fake ones)

Nope. Boros punts that ****** into space. If he hadn't hit the moon, Boros would have won right there.

Nope, his system is unique to him and something she couldn't properly copy. Even if she copied a skill or 2, his abilities are far greater than the sum of their parts. Hence why he is considered the strongest at the academy.

Nope, Possession on touch GG. A direct confrontation was his mistake. Has he coated the ground and enviroment and possessed that way he could have won. Not likely, but enough for it to be a win condition.

 

[Overlord775]

I don't think elementary can do that and he doesn't know the location of the thing spawned in the world, so he would be blid searching, and it could likely be kilometers from his position.

Boros winning by sending Saitama in deep space is pure speculation.

eh, doesn't seem that much of a massacre then

>Contact based possession

To possess someone Emerald Hyerophant has to get inside of them, it's not contact based.

 

[Jinsye]

• Reads*

"Unfair battle" is too vague imo

A 100% fair match is a 50-50.

A 95-5 (as the example you're calling) is like the exact opposite of fair.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I was referring to his other NP. At the very least he has a win con there

That's not speculative, since he literally tried it. It is completely in character for him to yeet someone into space

Why would her not being able to copy his system make it any less of a massacre when she beat the shit out of him?

True, but hierophant can act automatically based on contact. Either way, possession is a win condition, even of very unlikely

 

[Overlord775]

Empty house is borderline useless without prior knowledge of the opponent and elementary won't help has he has to activate it and it doesn't spawn the solution in the right vicinity of the user

Saitama and Medaka are jobbers, that's the only reason those fights are memorable

The world is a automatic defence type stand, so this combined with the fact it's much faster then emerald made the chances of possession 0

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Sherlock is knowledgable enough. Even if he doesn't know about the weakness, it doesnt mean he doesn't have the win condition. A technique like Empty House actually does hard counter Karna if you know his legend

Medaka can be. However, my point still stands. Slaughters can be notable. Saitama vs Boros is also important for many more reasons than just that, but I don't wanna go into a fight analysis on a fight that many people have gone over.

"Automatic defense type" No, it isn't. Not more than any other stand that automatically projects their user. Kakyoin just needs to use a stealth op and he has the win condition. It is unlikely, but if DIO went cocky and fooled around like he did against Pol, he very much could pull it off

 

[Overlord775]

Sherlock wouldn't be able to pull that off without prior knowledge of Karna

And the World is the same type of stand as star platinum, who automatically protected Jotaro from shooting himself even when he wasn't even giving him commands

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

You forget that he is a historical figure, and Holms is incredibly well read. The reason servant try to hide their identity is because most people would know their weaknesses and strengths from their legends alone. Karna comes from one of the greatest legends of all time

Yes, all stands do that. That is not a "type" that is simply a property of stands, particularly humanoid ones. The rest of what I said still stands. Kakyoin has at least 1 win condition

 

[Overlord775]

K

K

Can we at least agree on the second point ?

2. A standoff where one character has a 100% chance of shooting first should be decleared a stomp

Imagine a standoff between a psycher and a gunner.

The psycher just need to thinks once to mindhax the gunner, while the ladder has to think about shooting, pull up the gun and then shoot.

100% of the time the psycher will get his attack in first and thus will aways win.

Thus in no scenario the gunner will win and the match is a stomp.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Isn't the second point already an actual rule? Like if someone is assured to shoot first and win, the opponent has 0 opportunity.

On the other hand, if someone has any percent chance greater than 0 to win a match, it's still fair game as they have a win condition. The rules make it clear that a stomp is a match that cannot be won no matter what. Having a chance to win, no matter how small, isn't a stomp.

You want to know a good example of an incredibly low chance becoming an outcome? Watch the entire last battle in No Game No Life. Sora and Shiro have no right winning against someone who was physically beyond their capability. Yet, they did. Because they had a chance. An astronomically low one in the form of a wandering Steph.

 

[Overlord775]

It isn't apparently since all Luke (Legends)'s vistories are just like the exemple I made

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Luke's fights have characters with win conditions. And I don't see Luke pulling a Nihilus and mind haxing the moment the match starts.

The opponent has a opportunity because Luke is not assured to shoot first.

There's a difference between two cowboys standing off and one is just faster than the other, and two cowboys standing off and one is supernaturally blessed to always shoot first.

One is fair, the other isn't.

 

[Overlord775]

Luke istantly mind haxes in-character, which is though based while none of his opponents (with the exception of possibly Sonic) have though based hax.

So there's no scenerio where he loses as he will always get the mindhax in before his opponent can do anything

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Cal literally says in multiple threads that Luke doesn't have to start with mindhax. It's not an absolute, which means the enemy still has a chance.

 

[Overlord775]

Guess what ?

Literally everyone else says he does

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Depending on which key, its his his most common opening, yes, but not his only one.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's not that he starts with mindhax it's that if he does mind hax he wins

Nihlus gets stomps because he will always mindhax the instant the fight starts

 

[Overlord775]

4-A key

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Depending on which key, its his his most common opening, yes, but not his only one.

If he doesn't open with mind hax 10/10 times, there is a chance, even a miniscule one, that his opponent can win.

 

[First_Witch]

If this continues to go into circles, a voting might be needed. As it stands now its Overlords views vs the rest of the wiki. I may request a highlight if Overlord desires so, but this topic should not take another million threads, like the one shot thread for example.

Get it done fast guys.

 

[Jackythejack]

I'm curious to know what that one shot thread was about.

Was it just debating the amount needed to one shot?

 

[Overlord775]

I may request a highlight if Overlord desires so, but this topic should not take another million threads, like the one shot thread for example.

It would be appriciated if you did it

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't agree with either being a stomp tbh.

1) It's just a low chance. It's still decisive. I mean yes the character won because the other would usually not open with the move he had. It doesn't mean the match is unfair, the match is pretty fair as both have equal chances to win (both have win conditions), though the fact that 1 character is usually more bloodlusted than the other turns it from an inconclusive to a decsive battle. Characters like Medaka Kurokami have this same thing. She will literally never open up with anything that's "hax" so a lot of her loses are based on that, loses against Sailor Moon and Woflgang, matches which would be a stomp under "bloodlusted" conditions. I don't see why this should be a stomp. A stomp is when a character can't win, as in no matter what he tries to do or go with, there is just nothing he can do. The "chance" part seems like a really bad example, it's the character's fault for being naive/nice/unwilling to end the match right off the bat, should he be willing to open up with that move he has more than enough chances to win, so it's not an unfair battle.

2) Why is this a stomp? How is this any different from our rules that "Speed Unequal matches CAN be added". A character wins through having a faster move, yes character B cannot win if A starts with mind hax, though in a scenario where A would not do that, then B would win. It's decisive, but it's just based on speed.

 

[Overlord775]

2) Why is this a stomp? How is this any different from our rules that "Speed Unequal matches CAN be added". A character wins through having a faster move, yes character B cannot win if A starts with mind hax, though in a scenario where A would not do that, then B would win. It's decisive, but it's just based on speed.

I ment sceneraios where one character will always start with an istakill that acts before the opponent has even a slight chance to do anything

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

For number 1, I mostly agree. To quote Azzy;

"If the odds or scenario where the character involved uses said ability to win are extremely unlikely compared to most other possible outcomes, having a means to win or not does not matter. It remains a stomp."

This is what I agree with. Allowing this otherwise seems more like away to justify obvious stomp matches.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I ment sceneraios where one character will always start with an istakill that acts befpre the opponent has a even a slight chance to do anything

It's still just decisive, character won that one because his killing/opening move is faster, in a case where he wouldn't instantly open up with that, he'd lose. So no, it's not a stomp. This is unlike Passive wins. So no, a faster thought based ability doesn't mean it's a stomp, it's just decisive beacuse it's faster, it can trigger faster and therefore give the user a win.

If we go by rules as strict as these might as well call any match where the win isn't a literal coin toss between the winner and the loser be a stomp.

 

[Kepekley23]

I absolutely agree with the former.

Trying to exploit an ability that is so ridiculously out of character and act like that ability which they will never, ever, ever conceivably use in an actual fight makes the match fair is a terrible practice.

Let's have some common sense, please.

 

[Overlord775]

If the oppoenet has no way to get istantly killed and has no way to fight back then the battle is a stomp since no matter what he tries to do, he will not ever win, 0% chance, and that is as a clear cut stomp as you can get

and you are vastly overreacting as this would affect less than 1% of all matches

 

[The_Calaca]

Despite you claimed before that the majority of matches are like this.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I'm not touching this one.

Although I will say that, having exactly one wincon VS your opponent having like ten or so is what I would call a stomp. Not because "lol OOC", but because "one character having over a dozen ways to kill a character VS the latter only having one" pretty much inarguably meets the qualifications for a stomp, regardless of whether or not the opponent's exact one ability is in character.