About speed feats with weapons

[Furudo_Erika]

On the wiki, I have seen many calculations that use the weapon's length to calculate the speed of characters, such as making multiple attacks before a character can react to it, or deflecting projectiles with a sword...but I personally believe this isn't viable in most cases.

For example, if a character swings a sword with a (unreasonable) blade length of one kilometer in a 90 degree arc in 0.25 seconds, they would be Hypersonic+ using this logic. However, this is how fast the tip of the weapon is moving, not the body of the person itself, as a larger radius creates a faster tangential speed.

Allow me to compare a standard longsword to the 1km blade. A longsword has a blade length of around 1 meter...but if you swung the 1km blade at the same angular velocity, the tip of the weapon would reach 1,000x faster than the longsword, which would heavily inflate combat speed using this logic. I believe it doesn't make sense to calculate feats with weapons this way, as it is relying on the length of the weapon itself, not the one using the weapon.

Agree: Mr_Supersonik, Bernkastelll, EliminatorVenom, ByAsura, Antoniofer
Neutral: DaReaperMan
Disagree: DemonGodMitchAubin, GilverTheProtoAngelo, KLOL506, DarkDragonMedeus, Armorchompy

 

[Tarang123]

Aren't most of these kinds of speed feats due to being able to react to such speeds?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Not particularly.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, these seem more like the speed of the wielders rather than the weapons. The speed of melee and throwing weapons depend on the momentum of the wielder.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Even if a sword is 1km long, you would still have the same time to react as if it was a normal sword.
Due to both weapons having the same angular velocity; how fast their angle changes over time.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

But now, how about magic swords that do not have any mass? Therefore things like force, inertia, and torque do not really apply to it, so practically anyone (even young children) can use it effectively, even if the length of the blade was the length of the Milky Way galaxy due to it not having force, inertia, and torque.

Now if they swung it, the tip of the sword would easily reach MFTL+.
So, do they now scale to MFTL+ combat speed? As this is pretty much the logic of these calcs.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree, but it should be applied case-by-case. 90% of the time characters are able to dodge the very tip of the blade.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

That's another problem: Angular Velocity.
Just because a sword is longer, doesn't mean you need to be fast to dodge it...as the sword would still reach you as if it was a normal weapon.

Say an average arm is 0.75m, and a longsword is 1m. The longsword would need to travel roughly 2.749 meters to travel in a 90 degree arc.
Now, a 1km sword would need to travel 1,571.974 meters in a 90 degree arc.

The thing is...they would take the same amount of time to reach the end of the arc if they were swung at the same angular velocity, thus dodging a 1km blade...is just as easy as dodging a normal sword.

The reason why longer blades move faster, is because they travel more distance in the same timeframe as a normal weapon, but they still reach the target at the same time as a normal weapon due to being much further away from them.

 

[ByAsura]

That depends entirely on where they dodge it from and how fast they appear to be moving comparatively. For example, Goku dodges a sword when it almost touches him and appears to almost teleport in comparison. So, again, it’s a case-by-case thing.

There’s a lot of games that will probably be downgraded from this.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

That's because the tip speed of a sword is mostly dependent on the weapon itself.
Say a sword is 1m in length, now another sword is 2m in length...and the same person swings them

The distance the second sword has to travel is twice as much as the first sword, thus the tip speed should be twice as fast...however, they would still reach the target at the same exact time, due to the angle of which they travel. Meaning, it is just as easy to dodge the second sword compared to the first sword, since you have the same exact amount of time to react to it.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Same thing with the arm of the user itself.
The arm would need to travel the same angle to hit the target in the same timeframe...so even dodging the arm is just as easy as the sword, regardless of how long the length of the blade is.

 

[ByAsura]

Neither of those really changed what I said. You can still have characters dodging the tip from close range with little space (Jason Voorhees often moves out of the way of weapons when they’re coming down on him rather than the beginning of the arc), or appearing to move much faster than the blade itself. In some cases, you can even have characters dodging an even faster shockwave/energy beam that extends outwards.

Even though I mostly agree with you, nothing is concrete here.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

It doesn't matter how far away they are to the sword itself. Regardless of how far away they are, the sword would still impact them at the same exact time on ANY portion of the blade, whether it is the tip of the sword, or halfway down the blade...it will impact at the same exact time, assuming it is a straight blade.

Moreover...this isn't what the conversation is about really. If characters can move faster than the tip of the sword, well good on them. Though they would only scale to it if they explicitly move faster than the tip of the sword itself, simply dodging the tip isn't enough to be a viable feat due to any part of the blade making contact at the same exact time.

What THIS is actually about, is characters' combat speed scaling to the tangential velocity of the weapon they are swinging, not characters dodging the weapons.

 

[ByAsura]

That depends on quite a lot, such as positioning. Also, there’s tons of characters who wait until the last millisecond for a blade to impact and then dodge. You can’t tell me that someone who’s on the very edge and side of a sweep backflipping above the blade the instant before it hits them and landing on the end (like Goku has also done) doesn’t make them faster.

And all I’m saying it’s should be case-by-case because they’re very often intertwined. It’s not just something that we should drop entirely, it’s something we should regulate.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Yes, but what about deflecting projectiles, or making a number of slashes in a specific amount of time?
These are the feats where calcs still use the length of the blade, rather than the sheer speed/skill of the user, and from what I can see...a lot of them are quite inflated due to this.

 

[ByAsura]

So we’ll heavily regulate them.

Also, if it’s a somewhat small blade, it wouldn’t really be that much faster than the user.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also, if it’s a somewhat small blade, it wouldn’t really be that much faster than the user.

Well yes, small blades aren't a big issue with these calcs, but a lot of calcs have reasonably-sized swords.

 

[ByAsura]

Ghost of Tsushima has a lot of that, IIRC.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Yes, I also seen a calc that scales to Mach 959.45 which uses the sword length in order to destroy an object in a number of slashes.
However, using only the arm length (thus the raw speed/skill of the character), that drops to Mach 580, which is a significant difference.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Yeah, I get what this CRT is aiming for, and I agree with it.

While there are cases and cases, most of the time this applies. Merely dodging a tip strike simply does not apply.

In fact, this is a problem even in game programming. A relatively big hurdle programmers face is how to realistically simulate something that move in the X and Y coordinates at the same time. Due to how some games work, the speed is added and it makes diagonal movement way faster than a straight one, when it really shouldn't be.

 

[Kanogami]

Agree FRA

 

[Bernkastelll]

Agreed

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So this is about calculating the speed of someone based on the speed of a sword swing?

Because if someone swings a sword extremely fast, it should scale to their Combat Speed, a lot of characters in series react to the sword swings anyways, if the sword is the main source of the attack, then the speed of the sword would scale to the user's Combat Speed

Tons of sword based characters have speed feats where they swing their swords extremely fast and many characters can blitz and react to the sword's speed, I don't agree with invalidating those feats by any means

Now for characters with absurdly long swords that are kilometers long like you said, yeah I can get them not scaling to the speed of the character, especially if the opponent is close to the user when they dodge the swing, but for standard sized swords, I think it’s perfect ok to scale the sword swing to their combat speed

 

[Furudo_Erika]

So this is about calculating the speed of someone based on the speed of a sword swing?

Because if someone swings a sword extremely fast, it should scale to their Combat Speed, a lot of characters in series react to the sword swings anyways, if the sword is the main source of the attack, then the speed of the sword would scale to the user's Combat Speed

Tons of sword based characters have speed feats where they swing their swords extremely fast and many characters can blitz and react to the sword's speed, I don't agree with invalidating those feats by any means

Now for characters with absurdly long swords that are kilometers long like you said, yeah I can get them not scaling to the speed of the character, especially if the opponent is close to the user when they dodge the swing, but for standard sized swords, I think it’s perfect ok to scale the sword swing to their combat speed

Those feats would be alright. I mean feats where they deflect things, or them making a number of slashes, and them blitzing another character past their perception. I mean, there are a lot of feats that still use the length of the blade while they are blitzing another character while slashing them repeatedly down the line.

 

[KingTempest]

This is like canceling a feat for someone swiping lightning because they use punches, but the calc was with their fingers stretched out.

This change is pretty redundant.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Which is why I said feats that barely have any additional length added wouldn't make a difference, however, adding an entire meter or so would really make a difference. As in, they may roughly half the value of the calculation.

If someone has a small knife, then yeah. It wouldn't really matter, however, most of these calcs have reasonably-sized blades. And again, regardless of the length of the blade, it is just as easy to dodge the blade as dodging the arm itself due to all parts of the blade hitting at the same time; or rather all parts of the radius hitting at once, which would include the arm.
The blade is just faster down the line because it has to travel more distance in the same timeframe. However, any part of the blade hits around the same time, regardless if is the tip of the sword, halfway down the blade, or the base of the blade itself. It isn't viable to scale a character to the tip speed of the sword, since all portions of the blade hit at the same time.

Example:
Someone with an arm length of 0.75 meters uses a a one-meter long that has a tip speed of 20 m/s, and has to travel 2.749 meters to reach a 90 degree angle.
Now, halfway down the blade, that portion of the sword would have a tangential velocity of 14.285 m/s, and has to travel 1.963 meters to complete a 90 degree arc.

Say if someone dodged the blade halfway when it was done making the arc, moving one meter from it:
Tip: (1 * 20) / 1.3745 = 14.551 m/s
Halfway down: (1 * 14.285) / 0.9815 = 14.554 m/s

They are essentially the same value, even after a bit of rounding. Dodging any portion of a straight blade is just as easy as any other portion, so simply "dodging the tip of a sword" wouldn't be a viable feat, since it is just as easy as dodging any other part of the sword.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Just to add another thing to this: The speed required to dodge the end of the 1km-long blade.
The tip of the sword needs to travel 1,571.975 meters in a 90 degree arc, and would have a speed of 11,437 m/s.
Now. dodging while it is halfway through its arc = 785.9875 m/s
So: (1 * 11,437) / 785.9875 = 14.551 m/s...still the same value.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Those feats would be alright. I mean feats where they deflect things, or them making a number of slashes, and them blitzing another character past their perception. I mean, there are a lot of feats that still use the length of the blade while they are blitzing another character while slashing them repeatedly down the line.

Hmmmmm, I see

I can sort of see your point, but at the same time, if someone can swing their sword 100 times in like a second, I don’t think we shouldn’t not use it

 

[KLOL506]

So how would this affect normal bullet-slicing feats?

I agree that this would affect massive swords that are like, kilometers in size, but human-sized swords should be fine to be used.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Yes, but that would be relying on the length of the blade, rather than the sheer speed of the character.

Using an arm length of 0.75m:
Say a 0.25m dagger needs to travel 1.571 meters to complete a 90 degree arc. Multiply that by 100, and you get 157.1 m/s.

However, if they use a 1m longsword, it would need to travel 2.749 meters, so 274.9 m/s for 100 slashes...which is quite a large difference.

Now, if you just use the arm length, it would need to travel 1.178 meters in a 90 degree arc, thus 117.8 m/s for 100 slashes with a weapon.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, but that would be relying on the length of the blade, rather than the sheer speed of the character.

Using an arm length of 0.75m:
Say a 0.25m dagger needs to travel 1.571 meters to complete a 90 degree arc. Multiply that by 100, and you get 157.1 m/s.

However, if they use a 1m longsword, it would need to travel 2.749 meters, so 274.9 m/s for 100 slashes...which is quite a large difference.

Now, if you just use the arm length, it would need to travel 1.178 meters in a 90 degree arc, thus 117.8 m/s for 100 slashes with a weapon.

I mean, the character is still moving the blade as if it were an extension of them with that kind of sheer speed so it should account for something, assuming the blade is moved separately and not simultaneously alongside their body part. The character would sorta have to compensate moving a 1 meter long sword by moving greater distances.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I mean, the character is still moving the blade as if it were an extension of them with that kind of sheer speed so it should account for something, assuming the blade is moved separately and not simultaneously alongside their body part.

By that logic, a 1km blade is also an extension of them as well, making it also account for the same thing.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Moving a long blade just requires more force to move it because of inertia and torque, so swinging a large blade is more akin to Lifting Strength rather than speed.

 

[KLOL506]

Moving a long blade just requires more force to move it because of inertia and torque, so swinging a large blade is more akin to Lifting Strength rather than speed.

You'd still have to compensate with speed to move it fast enough to protect yourself from oncoming projectiles.

Also what if one spins the blade separately like a blender's blades? What then?

 

[Armorchompy]

I see the point OP is making and I somewhat agree but at the same time I don't really think it's worth addressing, it's not a big issue

 

[KLOL506]

Hmmmmm, I see

I can sort of see your point, but at the same time, if someone can swing their sword 100 times in like a second, I don’t think we shouldn’t not use it

Agree with this.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

The formula for that would be easy:
Most projectile-deflecting/slicing feats are [2*pi*(Arm length + blade length)/4] * speed of projectile / distance away the projectile was before the character started moving
Though, I believe it would be more accurate if only the arm length was used in the calculation.

Also; a typical longsword swing is roughly 20 m/s, and historically, people clashed swords all the time and reacted to them. By saying people would scale to the sword swing, does this mean they would have Superhuman combat speed as well, following this logic?

 

[KLOL506]

The formula for that would be easy:
Most projectile-deflecting/slicing feats are [2*pi*(Arm length + blade length)/4] * speed of projectile / distance away the projectile was before the character started moving
Though, I believe it would be more accurate if only the arm length was used in the calculation.

Only if there is evidence that the sword was moved simultaneously with the arm (As in, both the sword and the arm move at the same time), if there is an instance where the sword is moved independently and/or the sword and arm are moving in a 180 degree arc and so on with both the sword and arm being level, then I disagree.

Also; a typical longsword swing is roughly 20 m/s, and historically, people clashed swords all the time and reacted to them. By saying people would scale to the sword swing, does this mean they would have Superhuman combat speed as well, following this logic?

Humans can already punch and kick that fast, their reactions are a wee bit swifter I think.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean we do give boxers superhuman attack speed already, this wouldn't really be any different. And I'm not saying the calculations would be difficult to make, it just ain't worth it to go back to every single calc of this kind to redo it.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

it just ain't worth it to go back to every single calc of this kind to redo it.

Even though it may roughly half the value, if not much more if it a larger blade such as Sephiroth's sword, or Gut's sword?
I mean, I seen a calc that had a blade length of less than 0.5 meters...with only using the arm length, it went from Mach 959.45 to Mach 580, which is quite a significant difference. Calcs that use multiple slashes...the distance those slashes move, can really add up and inflate the value by quite a margin.

Now again, this sword was less than 0.5 in length, which is a pretty short blade for a sword.