About manga Ultra Instinct rating

[AguilaR101]

I don't think there is any justification for the "At least" there, as far as I am aware, the only feat that puts Goku at 3-B is a statement that implies the destruction of the universe overtime, which puts him at baseline only given that the manga, unlike the anime, doesn't elaborate on how long/how many clashes it would take for that to happen. So unless UI provides a boost that brings him close to 3-A (~1.04e23x) or he scales to someone with actual 3-A feats he should still only be 3-B.

Thoughts?

 

[Akreious]

I don't get why we assume baseline for any and all overtime statements? If it's treated as an imminent threat, I think it warrants an "at least" given that over the span of that one battle, everything would be destroyed.

If I had a fight with Superman in real life and our fight was said to be "Going to destroy the entire universe" by an immensely wise force, would you assume Baseline?

 

[AguilaR101]

Because it's the safest assumption to make, we don't know exactly how long it would take for it to happen beyond that it would happen in a "short amount of time" which is entirely subjective. For all we know, "a short amount of time" could be an hour or a few minutes. in either case they'd be outputting hundreds of times less energy per sec (mind you that they're also mftl so realistically, they could have thrown billions of attacks in this timeframe) than what's necessary to be 3-A and there is also no indication in the manga of UI being hundreds of times stronger than SSG to warrant the possibility of it belonging to an higher tier.

 

[ByAsura]

The difference between baseline Multi-Galaxy level and Universe level is 3.2872444e+23. It seems ludicrous that they'd have to perform so many attacks just to destroy the Universe even if they are Massively FTL+, especially since they're in Earth's stratosphere for the whole fight, basically just one area where being Multi-Galaxy level wouldn't threaten the whole Universe.

It's still an unknown amp. Also, Goku shaking the Universe is his weakest level of power in DBS (excluding pre-God Ki), he even gets stronger right after, continues to train for years and years.

I also feel that the profile left something out; even after gaining Power Stressed SSB, Goku's "wall" was described as entirely too high, which he overcame when after transforming into UI Sign. And that was when it only lasted a matter of seconds.

 

[AguilaR101]

Even if you disagree with them being baseline there is no reason to entertain the notion of 3-B being the lower cap of Goku's power when all he has is 3-B feats + an unknown powerboost that could easily fit into the 3.2872444e+23 times gap between 3-B and 3-A.

 

[ByAsura]

He'd still have to cover massive portions of the Universe while being at Earth. That shouldn't be as massively below baseline Universe level as you suggest, especially not when the distance between the edge of the Universe and Earth is 46.5 billion light-years in any direction. And that's just the Observable Universe.

 

[AguilaR101]

There is no reason to believe they'd be close to it either and the only feats he has can only be assumed to be 3-B, the "at least" is tacked on for no real reason at all.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. I guess we can agree to disagree here.

 

[Akreious]

Note that the universe map still applies to the manga, so Goku had to exert more force in one direction to affect the other side of the universe. As in, the force is exponentially higher than starting at the very center.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Doesn't Goku get an "At least" from contending with Jiren who is > than the G.o.D.s, who have statements of them about to blow up the universe in a single blast?

This is what I mean:

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with the OP. He should just be 3-B.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think about this point?

 

[AguilaR101]

What do the rest of you think about this point?

The problem is that their statements don't imply the universe would end as direct immediate result of their energies colliding. "I don't care about what happens to this universe" only points towards the lack of concern he has over any kind of damage being done to the universe, which plainly doesn't necessitate anything more than an unknown degree of 3-B power.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would any other manga profiles be affected by removing the "at least" for Goku's statistics?

 

[AguilaR101]

Only Goku's as he is the only one with the rating on his profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you need more staff input in any case. You can find people to ask to comment here in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page.

 

[AguilaR101]

I will do so at a later time, thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Dark649]

There is a considerable gap from to 3-B to at least 3-B so this seems fine, however i'm not not sure at what level of 3-B the at least can be applied for UI Goku and SS4 Gogeta, so there is still the possibility.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The problem is that their statements don't imply the universe would end as direct immediate result of their energies colliding. "I don't care about what happens to this universe" only points towards the lack of concern he has over any kind of damage being done to the universe, which plainly doesn't necessitate anything more than an unknown degree of 3-B power.

I disagree.

I interpret the scene as them finally reaching a point in their fight where they are so angry at one another that they stop holding back. Right as their about to unleash their true power in one final climatic shot, they get stopped by their angel attendants, which legitimizes the threat to the universe. A universe which would be around 2.5 times larger than our universe because of the Other World and the realm of the Kais.

Champa's statement existing concurrently to him charging an attack implies that the damage he's stating he's capable of doing is through the energy he is putting into his blast, and from his words, we can infer that the entire universe will perish in that blast as well.

 

[AKM sama]

Champa's statement and the angel's reaction to it implies an immediate threat to the universe which would mean causing a large-scale damage. It doesn't necessarily mean they would have destroyed the whole universe, but large parts of it in that one attack, which according to my understanding is not very far away from baseline 3-A.

Goku's feat from BoG is also not considered baseline 3-B because if it was, it would take them idk millions of years to destroy the whole universe. Elder Kai's statement implied an overtime destruction but it was still in the boundaries of the time of their fight, which would be far above baseline 3-B.

Kep has plenty of experience with calcs like these so his input will also be preferable.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM makes good points.

You can ask Kepekley to comment if you wish.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Champa's statement and the angel's reaction to it implies an immediate threat to the universe which would mean causing a large-scale damage. It doesn't necessarily mean they would have destroyed the whole universe, but large parts of it in that one attack, which according to my understanding is not very far away from baseline 3-A.
Goku's feat from BoG is also not considered baseline 3-B because if it was, it would take them idk millions of years to destroy the whole universe. Elder Kai's statement implied an overtime destruction but it was still in the boundaries of the time of their fight, which would be far above baseline 3-B.

Kep has plenty of experience with calcs like these so his input will also be preferable.

Basically this. ^

 

[Kepekley23]

It's undoubtedly 3-B. They prepare a ki blast and say they don't care about what happens to the universe. The context is clear enough; if those blasts collided, bye-bye Universe 7.

Why don't we split baseline 3-A in 2?

 

[Peter1129]

So 3-B+ Manga UI Goku?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that might be an idea.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, absolutely anyone who is able to threaten the universe within their lifetime has to be 3-B, outliers aside.

There are 2 trillion galaxies in the universe. Even if you assume someone was busting a million galaxies a day, they'd still take five thousand years to destroy the universe.

 

[AKM sama]

So what do you think we should rate UI Goku? At least 3-B or 3-B+?

 

[AguilaR101]

Even being quadrillions of times above baseline 3-B would require an enormous boost for Goku to be near the top of the tier though, the angels intervention in the manga doesn't really have any additional context unlike the anime where they intervene out of concern of both U6 and U7 being destroyed.

The context is clear enough; if those blasts collided, bye-bye Universe 7.

Why don't we split baseline 3-A in 2?

I personally don't see it though, being unconcerned about the universe's well being doesn't necessarily imply they are going to completely destroy it in that one attack, at most it only implies that they don't care if the universe suffers great damage as result of their clash.

 

[Peter1129]

The manga GoDs would probably be 3-B+ while UI Goku and Jiren would either be just 3-B+ or at least 3-B+ for being stronger than the GoDs.

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyone got Herms's translation?

 

[Chartate101]

Also, absolutely anyone who is able to threaten the universe within their lifetime has to be 3-B, outliers aside.

There are 2 trillion galaxies in the universe. Even if you assume someone was busting a million galaxies a day, they'd still take five thousand years to destroy the universe.

Also with a normal aging rating. A character that lives for Millions of years would only have to destroy a few thousand galaxies per day, which many Baseline 3-B's could do

 

[AKM sama]

@Aguila

The context is simple, really. The angels intervene right after Champa makes that claim, saying "That will not do". It's because they were concerned about what Champa said.

 

[Antvasima]

So "At least 3-B" or 3-B+?

 

[Peter1129]

If Champa's statement is accepted than UI Goku and Jiren are probably 3-B+. Though they could also be at least 3-B+ since they are stronger than GoDs who are all 3-B+ going by Champa's statement.

 

[Antvasima]

Is this solution fine with the rest of you?

 

[AguilaR101]

I'll go with what Kep suggests.

 

[Dark649]

3-B+ should be fine.

 

[Peter1129]

So how about this

Ultra Instinct Goku: 3-B+ (Would have eventually defeated Jiren who is stronger than Belmond who should be comparable to the likes of Champa and Beerus who were going to destroy U7 in their fight)

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me.