About Hyperdimension Neptunia...

[Furudo_Erika]

I know these pages are old and outdated, but I can think of a few additions to add.

General:

• All characters may have 4th Wall Awareness. Although Neptune is the most prominent example of this, various other characters are also shown breaking the 4th Wall; such as Nepgear, Noire, Vert, Plutia, and even several NPCs. A lot of characters also tell Neptune to "stop being too meta", showing they are, at the very least, self-aware.
• Depending on how it can be interpreted, each "dimension" could be Multiverse level to Multiverse level+. Found in Sega Hard Girls (Which is not canon, but it could potentially add to the cosmology as canonical as they travel to the canonical timeline), where Histoire states that there is no such thing as "definite history", and there are different interpretations of history (alternate timelines).

Histoire:

• Histoire should have Abstract Existence (Type 2), due to literally being "history itself". Histoire's true form is described to be a tome which records the history of Gamindustri, and in Megadimension Neptunia VII, Histoire states that "if you write in the tome, you will change history, and vice versa; changing history will alter the tome".
• Histoire may have Omnipresence, or at the very least have an omnipresent state of being since she is "history itself" and she stated that "I am the world, the world is me." This omnipresence may scale from 2-B to 2-A for reasons above, as it is stated to be "everything in this world".

Kurome:

• The Heart Dimension is stated to be able to turn dreams into reality, possibly granting Dream Manipulation and Subjective Reality
• SPOILER: Likely has Mind Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation by brainwashing the CPUs into killing their sisters.
• The Heart Dimension is also stated to be Kurome's dream based on her memories and past. Due to it being her dream, Kurome may have an omnipresent state of being.
• Kurome may possibly have 9-dimensional Range. Due to moving the Zero Dimension through multidimensional space. However, it is not stated if Kurome moved it throughout 9-dimensional space, or 3-dimensional space, but it could be implied the former is true, hence the "possibly" due to a lack of information.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Just a little thing to add: If Histoire embodied all of history, this would probably equate to High 1-C omnipresence. As there is at least nine spatial dimensions with one temporal dimension; 10-dimensional spacetime. By this, I can say the entire scope of existence of the Neptunia verse is at least High 1-C.
This doesn't really to add to any feats, but it can help explain the entire scope of the cosmology.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Looking back at the video about alternate timelines, Histoire also states that history protects people by altering itself to where they will always exist, even if their ancestors were to be killed. (May count as Type 1 Acausality, possibly even Type 3 or 4)

Possible (although very iffy), High-Godly Regeneration to all playable characters (Whenever Kurome took NEXT Purple's powers, she transferred them to Dark Purple. This could include "Dimensional Slice", which is literally stated to "even slice through the concept of an opponent", and yet characters are still able to passively regenerate health by using Idea Chips). If this doesn't count as High-Godly Regeneration, then I think it would be resistance to Conceptual Manipulation at the least.

 

[Planck69]

Have no knowledge on the setting but;

If there's information coming from non-canon sources, it shouldn't be used for anything here at all.

The spatial dimensions need proof of being infinite or large in scope to qualify for High 1-C.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

「Super Neptunia™ RPG」

「Super Neptunia™ RPG」

ideafintl.com

This shows that there are an infinite number of dimensions. These dimensions are peppered throughout 9-dimensional space. I dunno how you would interpret this, but it does show that there are infinite dimensions throughout 9-dimensional space.

As for non-canon sources...they may not be canon, but most of them take place in the canon timeline, such as Cyberdimension which takes place right after Megadimension VII and even references the events that have happened. Same with Sega Hard Girls where they travel to the canonical timeline to restore history, so it can be safely assumed that the non-canon games take place in the same cosmology as the canon games.

 

[Planck69]

"Dimensions" as used there just means universes. That doesn't prove anything.

These kinds of assumptions aren't made unless it's stated though, so a non-canon source being used for canon information isn't a thing. But eh, I'll let the actual experts take over here, I'm just clarifying.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I know "dimensions" are meant as universes, but these "dimensions" are able to exist in 9-dimensional space. As there are an infinite number of these dimensions, the space in which they are contained could be infinite as well, as akin to holding higher uncountable infinities of universes.

 

[Planck69]

What? That's a ridiculous extrapolation. A infinite 4-D expanse could hold them without issue. You have to prove that each of these dimensions are non-trivial and infinite in length, or at least extremely large.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

"Infinite" dimensions can have an ambiguous meaning. As in, how big is the "infinity"? If there is an uncountable infinite number of them, than an infinite 4D expanse cannot hold all of them, even if they are all 4D universes, same with even higher dimensions.

 

[Planck69]

We don't assume anything higher than a countable infinity though, which is the smallest infinity, it has to be proven that there talking about a larger infinity.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Hyper Dimension Coordinates
306 : 130 : 873 : 046 : 305 : 830 : 52 : 30 : 93

Zero Dimension Coordinates (Before)
306 : 130 : 873 : 046 : 305 : 830 : 52 : 30 : 70

Zero Dimension Coordinates (After)
306 : 130 : 873 : 046 : 305 : 830 : 52 : 30 : 82


I can't really say much here, but it definitely looks like Zero Dimension is moving on a 9-dimensional axis. From what I can tell, the first 6 dimensions are pretty large in comparison to the last 3 dimensions, due to having an extra digit for the coordinates and the 6th coordinate being much greater than the 7th coordinate.

 

[Planck69]

I can't really tell what to do with that so you're better off calling someone knowledgeable on the tiering system. I'm unfollowing, I just had to make some things clear.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Aight.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antoniofer @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @Everything12 @Duedate8898

Would any of you be willing to help out here?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well OP should first update their post with scans, as most of the proposals are lacking it. So I'll just be responding to the ones that have scans.

Depending on how it can be interpreted, each "dimension" could be Multiverse level to Multiverse level+. Found in Sega Hard Girls (Which is not canon, but it could potentially add to the cosmology as canonical as they travel to the canonical timeline), where Histoire states that there is no such thing as "definite history", and there are different interpretations of history (alternate timelines).

Well you said it yourself, it's not canon so we can't really use it. And the clip never implies the different interpretations of history act as alternate timelines either, didn't even mention it as a possibility when they were explaining the grandfather paradox.

Kurome may possibly have 9-dimensional Range. Due to moving the Zero Dimension through multidimensional space. However, it is not stated if Kurome moved it throughout 9-dimensional space, or 3-dimensional space, but it could be implied the former is true, hence the "possibly" due to a lack of information.

This could be legit. Do you have any more context for the coordinates and more of what those 9 dimensions are in this verse?

 

[Everything12]

I can safely say as a fan of the series who has played VII that none of this is proof of Higher-Dimensions, their is no actual context behind the Dimensional Coordinates.

4th Wall is a big obvious yes. Sega Hard Girls is as you said non-canon, so no to that. Both of Historie's additions need more evidence than a few statements that can be interpreted in many different ways with no actual feats to back them up.

The dreams into reality need more evidence before we can give those additions. The Mind Manipulation makes sense, as she did make the CPUs fight their sisters. Once again we don't give Omnipresence out without proper feats or statements that show they actually have that, not just interpreting statements that don't give any actual evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you both for helping out. Your evaluations make sense to me.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Well you said it yourself, it's not canon so we can't really use it. And the clip never implies the different interpretations of history act as alternate timelines either, didn't even mention it as a possibility when they were explaining the grandfather paradox.

This could be legit. Do you have any more context for the coordinates and more of what those 9 dimensions are in this verse?

1: Aight, fair enough. I'll see if I can find anything else.
2: From the dialogue, it heavily implies the dimensional coordinates are akin to "directions", with the 9th coordinate changing as time progresses, showing that Zero Dimension is, in fact, moving on a 9-dimensional axis:

Hyper Dimension Coordinates
306 : 130 : 873 : 046 : 305 : 830 : 52 : 30 : 93

Zero Dimension Coordinates (Before)
306 : 130 : 873 : 046 : 305 : 830 : 52 : 30 : 70

Zero Dimension Coordinates (After)
306 : 130 : 873 : 046 : 305 : 830 : 52 : 30 : 82

From what is said in the dialogue, they are practically stating that these are "dimensional directions"; higher-dimensional space.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well yeah, that's what they say in the clip, but is there more context on what exactly those numbers are? Or even just any context of the addition 6 dimensions?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

The position of dimensions/universes in multidimensional space. There isn't much more context behind it, besides if you were to describe a space with 9-dimensional hypervolume, then you could find dimensions/universes at a position within this 9-dimensional space. It explicitly states that it is "multidimensional space", how much more context is needed when it states that they treat higher-dimensional space as "directions" which something can exist in?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

For the dream/reality thing, it is explicitly stated that they are dreams forged from the CPUs desires. Other characters are able to enter these dreams as if they were a part of it, being able to interact with the inhabitants as if they were "real" beings rather than a fabrication.

Vert's dream here:

 

[Ogbunabali]

As I said multple times. Context on what those numbers mean. Besides your assumptions, there's nothing to go off of here. You're asking for a 1-C upgrade based on a single line when nothing is actually explained. What does the number 52 mean? What does the number 306 mean? Etc.

Them uing the "number changing" is anti evidence for these being 9 dimensions, unless that universe is 1 dimensional (but that would disprove them being 9 dimensional objects). When a 3 dimensional object is moving in any direction they are moving on more than just 1 axis. Same thing with this 9 dimensional object, if it was actually 9 dimensional and those were actually 9 dimensional coordinates in the literal sense, than all those numbers would've been changing if the whole object was moving.

That's why I kept asking you to provide more context, if that's the only evidence you have, it's way too vague to be 1-C.

For the dream/reality thing, it is explicitly stated that they are dreams forged from the CPUs desires. Other characters are able to enter these dreams as if they were a part of it, being able to interact with the inhabitants as if they were "real".

If their only feat is to be able to enter dreams, it'd just be Immersion.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

As I said multple times. Context on what those numbers mean. Besides your assumptions, there's nothing to go off of here. You're asking for a 1-C upgrade based on a single line when nothing is actually explained. What does the number 52 mean? What does the number 306 mean? Etc.

If that's what you meant, the number means the "position" of each coordinate. Such as defining X, Y, and Z in a 3-dimensional space.
For 4D space, this can be X, Y, Z, and W.
X=306, Y=130, Z=873, W=046; or 306 : 130 : 873 : 046
If you move 20 units on each axis, your coordinates/position world be: 326 : 150 : 893 : 066

If their only feat is to be able to enter dreams, it'd just be Immersion.

This isn't for them entering the dream, but rather Kurome for forging the dream as a "real" place which can be interacted with.

 

[Ogbunabali]

If that's what you meant, the number means the "position" of each coordinate. Such as defining X, Y, and Z in a 3-dimensional space.
For 4D space, this can be X, Y, Z, and W.
X=306, Y=130, Z=873, W=046; or 306 : 130 : 873 : 046
If you move 20 units on each axis, your coordinates/position world be: 326 : 150 : 893 : 066

I already explained that's not how it works. And again that's just your extrapolation with not much backing in the source material.

This isn't for them entering the dream, but rather Kurome for forging the dream as a "real" place which can be interacted with.

When was that said? I might've missed it in the video.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

It isn't in the video, but just the context on what is actually happening.


Anyway, I have to go for a while.

 

[Ogbunabali]

What does that mean?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

As in, the context that Kurome is the one forging these dreams by using the CPUs desires as the foundation to build them.
This is explained a little while before they start entering the dreams of the CPUs.
Now, I really have to leave.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You should post scans of that instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Ogbunabali still makes sense to me.

 

[Planck69]

This entire argument is honestly extrapolations that aren't backed by anything. This isn't enough for a Tier 1 rating at all based on what I can see.

 

[Antvasima]

So which of the suggestions can be added if the tier upgrades do not qualify?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well as I said, they need to update their OP with scans first so it can be evaluated. So we should wait for them to come back and comment first. Though Everything12 seems to be familiar with the verse so maybe they can help in that regard.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Just want to make this clear:
This is not for upgrading the characters to 1-C, it is only for Kurome having 9D Range...that's it, nothing else.

When a 3 dimensional object is moving in any direction they are moving on more than just 1 axis. Same thing with this 9 dimensional object, if it was actually 9 dimensional and those were actually 9 dimensional coordinates in the literal sense, than all those numbers would've been changing if the whole object was moving.

I never said Zero Dimension was 9-dimensional. I only said it was moving through 9-dimensional space.
Also, all numbers changing? That doesn't have to be true, you can move a 3D object on one axis and only that coordinate will change.

Example:
(X, Y, Z): 10, 3, 11
If you move the object 4 units upwards (Y axis), then the dimensional coordinates will change to: 10, 7, 11.
You can have a 3D object moving through 3D space without changing its position on every axis.

 

[Ogbunabali]

This is not for upgrading the characters to 1-C, it is only for Kurome having 9D Range...that's it, nothing else.

It would upgrade the verse to 1-C. It's still an upgrade.

I never said Zero Dimension was 9-dimensional. I only said it was moving through 9-dimensional space.
Also, all numbers changing? That doesn't have to be true, you can move a 3D object on one axis and only that coordinate will change.

Example:
(X, Y, Z): 10, 3, 11
If you move the object 4 units upwards (Y axis), then the dimensional coordinates will change to: 10, 7, 11.
You can have a 3D object moving through 3D space without changing its position on every axis.

That would be true in a perfect straight line, but space-time isn't so elegant. Space-time is curved, and if a 9 dimensional universe was approaching another 9 dimensional universe no matter how perfectly it was moving in a "straight" line at least 2 of those numbers would have to be changing.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Are we talking about geometry or topology of the universe? As a lot of cosmological data concludes that the topology of the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error.

Time also...doesn't work equally in other dimensions/universes in Neptunia.
As seen in Victory and Re;Birth 3, where Neptune lived for13 years in Ultradimension, yet hardly any time passed at all in Hyperdimension.
In fact, Histoire herself had to connect the two dimensions together in order to stabilize the time flow between the two (Kinda sounds like 2-C in my opinion)

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Okay, now I have to question on what is "canon" in Neptunia now.
As there is an item called "Celestia Bangle" in Re;Birth 2, which quote:
"'Where the heck did Celestia go? Isn't it obvious we don't have a linear canonical storyline, you guys!?' - Neptune

It should probably be stated that Re;Birth 2 is NOT a sequel to Re;Birth 1.
Re;Birth 1 takes place in a different timeline...in Super Dimension, rather than Hyper Dimension.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Are we talking about geometry or topology of the universe? As a lot of cosmological data concludes that the topology of the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error.

Time also...doesn't work equally in other dimensions/universes in Neptunia.
As seen in Victory and Re;Birth 3, where Neptune lived for13 years in Ultradimension, yet hardly any time passed at all in Hyperdimension.
In fact, Histoire herself had to connect the two dimensions together in order to stabilize the time flow between the two (Kinda sounds like 2-C in my opinion)

We're talking about space-time. Yes, our 3 dimensional physical universe is very likely flat, but that's got nothing to do with what we're talking about. Space-time curves similarly to how when gravity is portrayed by planets being as bowling balls on a mattress creating a slope. It's extremely hard to visualize, as it's not a concept we can fully grasp, but even when our universe is flat because of space-time curvature if you "walk to the edge of the universe" (in brackets as it's an obvious simplification) you would turn out of the other side.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Spacetime curvature doesn't mean anything about dimensionality though. Would 10D spacetime curvature even significantly affect 4D objects due to being so much "larger" in comparison to them that they practically don't even exist? As you said, spacetime is like gravity, which spacetime bends because of matter.
But, would 9D hypermass have any significant effect on 3D mass?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Spacetime curvature doesn't mean anything about dimensionality though. Would 10D spacetime curvature even significantly affect 4D objects due to being so much "larger" in comparison to them that they practically don't even exist? As you said, spacetime is like gravity, which bends because of matter...
But, would 9D hypermass have any significant effect on 3D mass?

It very much does. It's directly influenced by it, just look at black holes, or even light. And the higher dimensions would influence them (some cosmological models already work under this assumptions in order to explain gravity's weirdness), but either way it's irrelevant here because the universes are 9 dimensional.