About fear manipulation

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Fear Manipulation's page

Currently there are "types" of fear:

On the basis of their nature, Fear Manipulation is divided into the following subtypes:

• Biochemical: Characters possessing this type of fear manipulation use either biological, chemical or biochemical methods to affect their opponents. It can be resisted by many methods, including Resistance to Biological Manipulation, adequate equipment or Inorganic Physiology
• Neurological: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use Mind Manipulation and other related powers to directly influence the opponent into being afraid. It can be resisted with sufficient Resistance to Mind Manipulation
• Mystical: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use Magic and other inexplainable phenomena to exploit their opponents' fears. It can be resisted using Resistance to Magic

However, there is the big problem that nobody remembers this or even cares, which makes no sense, since in theory it should be something extremely important. You resist fear manipulation based on a biological scale does not make you resist fear manipulation on a magical scale, for example. Therefore, I believe that Fear Manipulation should be more legitimately classified via types, just as we do with Abstract Existence and Self-Sustenance, since each method has many differences and do not correlate

Basically:

On the basis of their nature, Fear Manipulation is divided into the following subtypes:

• Type 1 - Biochemical: Characters possessing this type of fear manipulation use either biological, chemical or biochemical methods to affect their opponents. It can be resisted by many methods, including Resistance to Biological Manipulation, adequate equipment or Inorganic Physiology
• Type 2 - Neurological: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use Mind Manipulation and other related powers to directly influence the opponent into being afraid. It can be resisted with sufficient Resistance to Mind Manipulation
• Type 3 - Mystical: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use supernatural things, such as Magic and Aura or other inexplainable phenomena to exploit their opponents' fears. It can be resisted using "Resistance to Magic" for exemple, but usually varies. If the character simply manages to induce fear in a completely inexplicable way, the resistance will be placed as "Resistance to Fear Manipulation (Type 3)"

If this is accepted, it is not to be something added all at once, but gradually. Just as we did with the Nonexistent Physiology page

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Aren't there some characters whose fear manipulation falls outside of those categories, though? There are plenty of characters I can think of who just inexplicable cause their opponent to feel fear, often through some sort of aura; What exactly would they default to under these new requirements? I can personally think of a few characters I scale who wouldn't fit under any category at all.

You also have to keep in mind that we have 7x as many fear users as we do NEP characters, so changing nearly 1500 pages isn't really as feasible as you make it sound.

Honestly, just encouraging people to specify how the fear manipulation works on individual pages would work fine. I see no real benefit to a type system here, especially since said system will take way too much effort to implement, and doesn't even necessarily cover every fear user imo.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

There are plenty of characters I can think of who just inexplicable cause their opponent to feel fear, often through some sort of aura;

I am sure this is Mystical

You also have to keep in mind that we have 7x as many fear users as we do NEP characters, so changing nearly 1500 pages isn't really as feasible as you make it sound.

I don't want to change all the pages. Most of the characters with NEP have not even been updated yet btw

It's just to make things easier to understand

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am sure this is Mystical

Yeah, I'm not okay with this. Just assuming that every character who has fear manipulation with no explanation for how they are using it is actually just using magic is a huge leap in logic.

I don't want to change all the pages. Most of the characters with NEP have not even been updated yet btw

It's just to make things easier to understand

Then that defeats the purpose of having an organized type system. Things like AE or self-sustenance REQUIRE that the type be listed on all pages that have them, so you can't compare fear manipulation to those and go "but it won't be for all pages".

The thing about all NEP pages not being updated also hurts your point, because if 200 or so pages takes several months to even make a dent in, then 1500 will take a year or more. That just isn't feasible.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

s actually just using magic is a huge leap in logic.

Don't be stupid. It is obvious that "magic" is just an example from the page

Mystical: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use Magic and other inexplainable phenomena to exploit their opponents' fears. It can be resisted using Resistance to Magic

Like... Just read

Things like AE or self-sustenance REQUIRE that the type be listed on all pages that have them

It is something that is at least preferably listed in the profiles, or even mandatory. Otherwise people will keep getting confused in matches

The thing about all NEP pages not being updated also hurts your point, because if 200 or so pages takes several months to even make a dent in, then 1500 will take a year or more. That just isn't feasible.

Many things that are currently updated are not fixed automatically. That is the point

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Don't be stupid. It is obvious that "magic" is just an example from the page

Like... Just read

And then the description goes on to state that, apparently, everything blanketed under these 'inexplainable phenomena' can still be resisted via resistance to magic. You also may want to watch your tone.

It is something that is at least preferably listed in the profiles, or even mandatory. Otherwise people will keep getting confused in matches

It is not 'preferable'; You literally cannot make a page with abilities that have an organized type system, and then not list the type. What you are suggesting would make the new changes a requirement.

Many things that are currently updated are not fixed automatically. That is the point

I don't like this mentality. There is a significant and quantifiable difference between the effort needed to debate and edit 1500 pages compared to 200. Yes, it will get done eventually, but that doesn't mean the scope and difficulty of the task suddenly becomes irrelevant.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

And then the description goes on to state that, apparently, everything blanketed under these 'inexplainable phenomena' can still be resisted via resistance to magic.

It is obvious that "magic" is just an example from the page

Anyway, if you think it is so complex

Type 3 - Mystical: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use supernatural things, such as Magic and Aura or other inexplainable phenomena to exploit their opponents' fears. It can be resisted using "Resistance to Magic" for exemple, but usually varies. If the character simply manages to induce fear in a completely inexplicable way, the resistance will be placed as "Resistance to Fear Manipulation (Type 3)"

I don't like this mentality. There is a significant and quantifiable difference between the effort needed to debate and edit 1500 pages compared to 200. Yes, it will get done eventually, but that doesn't mean the scope and difficulty of the task suddenly becomes irrelevant.

Man, we are not going to do everything at once. This will just be a new "rule" for fear manipulation

I have seen several people confusing how fear manipulation works and how to resist it. Using "Types" will simply be to stop it. Nothing more and nothing less. It will be useful. It is undeniable that we must differentiate the methods of fear the character uses in combat, since there is a big difference between one and the other

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyway, if you think it is so complex

Never said it was complex. I'm against having a type dedicated solely to "everything we couldn't actually categorize into the other types", because it defeats the entire purpose of what this is supposed to do; Your goal here is to simplify things for the sake of VS debates, but having a category that basically boils down to anything and everything outside of the other two options does not work towards that goal.

Let me put it this way; Going with your new description, if I enter a VS thread and see that a character has the new type 3 fear manipulation you're proposing, that tells me absolutely nothing. It tells me what it isn't, sure, but the way it actually does work is not conveyed by the type itself, which is a massive problem for any type based system.

Man, we are not going to do everything at once. This will just be a new "rule" for fear manipulation

I know that. That is quite literally one of my concerns. Realistically, with the number of pages combined with the rate at which said pages are updated in cases like this (if the NEP revisions are anything to go by), we will likely be spending 2 years or more on this issue. You cannot seriously think that that is at all a reasonable demand.

I have seen several people confusing the type of fear manipulation and how to resist it. Using "Types" will simply be to stop it. Nothing more and nothing less. It will be useful. It is undeniable that we must differentiate the type of fear the character uses in combat, since there is a big difference between one and the other

Then describe how the fear manipulation works on the character's page. Or better yet, list it as something along the lines of "Fear Manipulation via Biological Manipulation/Mind Manipulation/Magic".

 

[Antoniofer]

Fear Manip may pretty well dissapear "soon" due being just a variation of Empathic Manip, so would say that expanding the typing (or creating it) is unnecesary.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fear Manip may pretty well dissapear "soon" due being just a variation of Empathic Manip, so would say that expanding the typing (or creating it) is unnecesary.

Damn, and this was one of my favorite powers too

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

that tells me absolutely nothing

No, you must be kidding me. You really look stupid, or even worse

The point is, each fear manipulation has its properties. Fear based on biology will be useless against beings that are not made with organism (Robots and golens), while fear based on mystical can work with such beings. Besides the fact that it helps to understand how to resist the fear manipulation (The type 2 can resist via "Resistance to Mind Manipulation". Type 3 can resist via anti-magic in some cases, etc). For example, when the character uses things like the person's blood to induce the feeling of fear, like Nodt, it should obviously be effective against characters like those in Naruto and HxH, since both resist nothing related to blood. Like, to you, would manipulating a person's mind to feel fear be similar to someone affecting their own physiology to have such feeling?

we will likely be spending 2 years or more on this issue.

You are thinking that we are going to every page to edit. But no, it is something completely "whatever" if a profile is wrong. If a verse supporter cares, he will edit it, simple. The same way we do with most of the updates we do. This is more to affect future things; Like, hell, using "References" is a mandatory rule these days but 90% of profiles don't use that. Do you know why?

So... are pages without references going to be deleted?

No. 99% of the pages don't have references as of yet. This is going to be a gradual process, but it is highly advised that supporters of the verses start adding references to the important character pages and information blogs. You can create revision threads for this purpose. And it is highly encouraged to include the references section in any new pages you make from this point on. Mainly, important scans that are linked to and powers that are not self-evident should all get references where they were shown. With time, this will be enforced with more strictness.

Or better yet, list it as something along the lines of "Fear Manipulation via Biological Manipulation/Mind Manipulation/Magic"

Which is easier:

Aura, Fear Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Paralysis Inducement (Every skilled individual in Kengan gives off some sort of pressure. This isn’t necessarily measuring fighters or physical strength only, but rather dependent on the danger and skill they possess (Which is why the physically weak Metsudo carried immense pressure while Kaburagi had none). This pressure is capable of awakening survival instincts to create sexual desire, inducing intense fear to cause people to be unable to breathe or act properly, warp their vision and what they see, and prevent them from moving, even if they aren’t visible to them, especially those from the Inside. Skilled fighters can gauge the personality, strength, and skill of a fighter based on this pressure, as well as sense them without direct input from their senses. Furthermore they can potentially discern what hidden techniques a foe is using from the feeling)

or

Fear Aura (Type 1,2 and 3: "Explanation*)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, you must be kidding me. You really look stupid, or even worse

Mhm. Anything else you want to add? Because a lot of insults have been thrown my way during my lifetime, and this is far from the worst. Just some real bottom of the barrel material you're throwing out here.

The point is, each fear manipulation has its properties. Fear based on biology will be useless against beings that are not made with organism (Robots and golens), while fear based on mystical can work with such beings. Besides the fact that it helps to understand how to resist the fear manipulation (The type 2 can resist via "Resistance to Mind Manipulation". Type 3 can resist via anti-magic in some cases, etc). For example, when the character uses things like the person's blood to induce the feeling of fear, like Nodt, it should obviously be effective against characters like those in Naruto and HxH, since both resist nothing related to blood. Like, to you, would manipulating a person's mind to feel fear be similar to someone affecting their own physiology to have such feeling?

My point is that type 1 tells me I need to resist Biological Manipulation. Type 2 tells me I need to resist Mind Manipulation. That's good; They serve the purpose of making things easier to understand. But type 3... Type 3 is an amalgamation. Do I need resistance to blood manipulation, or dream manipulation, or magic, or god knows what else? It is a catch-all, a type that isn't even really a type because it does not serve the purpose of separating and categorizing different uses of an ability.

It doesn't help me understand anything if I go to a profile and see type 3. I see type 1 self-sustenance and go "oh, this character doesn't need air", I see type 1 abstract existence and go "oh, this character is incorporeal", but I see type 3 fear manipulation, and what conclusions do I draw from that? "Oh, they can affect inorganic and mindless beings" is literally the least of my concerns when I'm looking at an ability description, because it tells me what an ability isn't (biological and mind manip) when a good ability description should be telling me what an ability is.

You are thinking that we are going to every page to edit. But no, it is something completely "whatever" if a profile is wrong. If a verse supporter cares, he will edit it, simple. The same way we do with most of the updates we do. This is more to affect future things; Like, hell, using "References" is a mandatory rule these days but 90% of profiles don't use that. Do you know why?

If you aren't going to edit every page, then don't make a type system. By all means, go through the immortalty, AE, and self-sustenance users lists and tell me which ones don't have the ability type listed. I'm willing to bet the number is 0, or at least very close to it.

References are a false equivalency since they are several orders of magnitude more important than a type system for an individual ability, to the point where I don't think the wiki would even be able to run as smoothly as it does without them.

Which is easier:

Okay, hang on, this isn't the same ******* thing as what I was saying. Not even remotely close. The description you provided is that of an aura that consists of multiple abilities, of which fear manipulation is just one. What I was saying is that, when the fear manipulation itself is the ability being described, you can describe it as such using the example I provided.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Because a lot of insults have been thrown my way during my lifetime

I don't care if you are offended or not comrade. Like, everyone has been offended by something worse than being called "stupid".

Do I need resistance to blood manipulation, or dream manipulation, or magic, or god knows what else?

Type 3 - Mystical: Characters possessing this type of Fear Manipulation use supernatural things, such as Magic and Aura or other inexplainable phenomena to exploit their opponents' fears. It can be resisted using "Resistance to Magic" for exemple, but usually varies. If the character simply manages to induce fear in a completely inexplicable way, the resistance will be placed as "Resistance to Fear Manipulation (Type 3)"

The mystical type is basically type 5 from the NEP page

Type 5- Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.

A method that varies depending on the context of the verse so you don't need 15 different types

It doesn't help me understand anything if I go to a profile and see type 3. I see type 1 self-sustenance and go "oh, this character doesn't need air"

You will see type 3 and realize that it is through mystical means, and therefore does not resist biological or mind fear.

If you aren't going to edit every page, then don't make a type system

You are not the absolute

Pages can be edited slowly, simply. A member who supports the verse notices the update and then revises the verse. Simple and practical

Did you also know that regenerating the body through a single head is now only Mid? Well, so many pages that need to be edited and yet "nothing"

References are a false equivalency since they are several orders of magnitude more important than a type system for an individual ability

????

multiple abilities

Yes, "multiple". Fear that affects mind + biology and is through aura

If you think it is easier to mention several abilities at once instead of putting "Type X and Y" then you are just being ignorant

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The mystical type is basically type 5 from the NEP page

A method that varies depending on the context of the verse so you don't need 15 different types

Guess what, I have the same issues with that as well. At least there I can excuse it since it's meant to be for less common forms of the ability, but from my experience, type 3 fear manipulation is the most common form of fear manipulation.

And listing it as resistance to fear manipulation (type 3) is a recipe for disaster; It implies someone who resists type 3 can resist any form of type 3, when that obviously isn't true; A character who resists a form of fear manip done through magic won't necessarily resist it coming from an aura, or from a character who can induce nightmares.

You will see type 3 and realize that it is through mystical means, and therefore does not resist biological or mind fear.

Yes, that's a bad thing. Cool, I know what the ability doesn't do, and that is completely and utterly ******* useless. Why is it so hard to just describe how the ability works? Why do we need to specify that characters who resist unrelated hax don't resist this different ability?

You are not the absolute

Pages can be edited slowly, simply. A member who supports the verse notices the update and then revises the verse. Simple and practical

Never said I was.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. The way you're phrasing it suggests people would take matters into their own hands to update verses appropriately, which absolutely will not fly on this wiki. We need CRTs for any changes to go forward.

Did you also know that regenerating the body through a single head is now only Mid? Well, so many pages that need to be edited and yet "nothing"

Because there is a difference between outdated or incorrect information on a page, and a page missing literal requirements. Listing what types of an ability a character has, if applicable, is required. Being 100% and up to date is not. They are not the same thing, and you shouldn't compare the two.

????

What's not to get?

Yes, "multiple". Fear that affects mind + biology and is through aura

No, it literally isn't. It is an aura that induces fear, biological manipulation, and mind manipulation, but the biological and mind manipulation aren't why the fear occurs. They are three separate abilities induced by a single aura. That's it.

I don't care if you are offended or not comrade. Like, everyone has been offended by something worse than being called "stupid".

If you think it is easier to mention several abilities at once instead of putting "Type X and Y" then you are just being ignorant

Can you chill the **** out?

 

[Antvasima]

I personally don't mind the suggestions in the first post, as they seem straightforward enough, but LIFE_OF_KING definitely needs to remember that thus is supposed to be a polite and respectful collaborative community, not one in which we insult each other.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about this suggestion?

 

[SamanPatou]

Fear Manipulation should just be merged with Empathic Manipulation tbh, it's clearly a subpower and not that much distinct or popular from ither types of emotions that are already covered by EM.

But that requires a lot of work, so I can see why people might have problems with this.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

We have always had abilities that are basically variations. Such as Age Manipulation and Time Stop.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will say that despite my objections to the OP's proposal, I don't think we should remove fear manipulation. As LIFE_OF_KING pointed out, ability variants are fine, and in my eyes if they're iconic and recognizable enough separate from the ability they originate from (such as with time stop and time manipulation), they're fine to stay.

 

[Comiphorous]

I will say that despite my objections to the OP's proposal, I don't think we should remove fear manipulation. As LIFE_OF_KING pointed out, ability variants are fine, and in my eyes if they're iconic and recognizable enough separate from the ability they originate from (such as with time stop and time manipulation), they're fine to stay.

mfing scarecrow with empathetic manipulation instead of fear manipulation is cursed

 

[speedster352]

I agree fra

 

[Antvasima]

We have always had abilities that are basically variations. Such as Age Manipulation and Time Stop.

I will say that despite my objections to the OP's proposal, I don't think we should remove fear manipulation. As LIFE_OF_KING pointed out, ability variants are fine, and in my eyes if they're iconic and recognizable enough separate from the ability they originate from (such as with time stop and time manipulation), they're fine to stay.

I agree with this.

Anyway, are you fine with giving the Fear Manipulation page an improved structure, as suggested in the first post of this thread, @SamanPatou ?

 

[SamanPatou]

I disagree with types for such a broad ability because it forces you to encase each example in these specific categories, which is fine for powers with actual limited types (such as Self-Sustenance), but Fear Manipulation can be employed in dozens of ways, like similar powers that affect the mind.

I think it would be better to replace the word "subtypes" with "examples", as that section should give a brief description of how the power can be generally employed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Bump

I think it would be better to replace the word "subtypes" with "examples", as that section should give a brief description of how the power can be generally employed.

That's fine. However, I believe it is better to say the way fear affects the opponent

Some note should be enough

 

[Firestorm808]

I do agree that Fear/Emotion Manipulation should be specified by the method used so resistances can be properly applied as well.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov

What do you think about this?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

My opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The ability works fine as we have it now. I don't think the CRT would substantially improve it, nor would merging it with Empathic Manip.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. I generally agree with that sentiment.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Like people above said, just mention in the reasoning how it affects the target(s) through your wording plus a scan that shows/states it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Like people above said, just mention in the reasoning how it affects the target(s) through your wording plus a scan that shows/states it.

I think this point seems fair.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My thoughts are the same as Bambu's

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah I'm with Bambu. I don't see the point in merging it with Empathic Manip nor do I see the need to change the page at all.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I disagree with types for such a broad ability because it forces you to encase each example in these specific categories, which is fine for powers with actual limited types (such as Self-Sustenance), but Fear Manipulation can be employed in dozens of ways, like similar powers that affect the mind.

I think it would be better to replace the word "subtypes" with "examples", as that section should give a brief description of how the power can be generally employed.

I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we add some examples to the page, as Saman suggested, or just leave it as it is?

 

[Zaratthustra]

Sure, examples would be good, they always are. But how would they be put on-page? Just name X character and how it does/uses it?

 

[Antvasima]

So should we add some examples to the page, as Saman suggested, or just leave it as it is?

Sure, examples would be good, they always are. But how would they be put on-page? Just name X character and how it does/uses it?

@SamanPatou

 

[SamanPatou]

I was thinking about more general examples, in terms of description.
The ways a character can control fear, something like mind influence, chemicals, manipulating the concept of fear and such, then put down some characters who employ the power in those ways.

This should just describe the most common forms of fear manipulation, without excluding the myriad of other possibly uses.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me at least.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[The_Impress]

Meh, biological and neural overlap, and many characters have a general fearhax resist due to sheer willpower or an inherent inability to feel fear. Like if this was wrt a general mind manipulation, sure, but I've seen an overwhelming amount of characters that resist fearhax whole rather than a specific type of fearhax.

Even if someone were to just resist or perform a specific type, wow, just say it in the description, simple. It isn't hard to type it out and state it as "Limited Fear Manipulation", and this way we don't **** up general/hyperspecific usage of the power

I disagree with the thread.