About Arceus Note 4

[DontTalk]

So this is about something that was debated before in this thread about giving Arceus Darkrai's abilities.

Basically one of the arguments that came up in that thread was that because Arceus has created the verse he should have the abilities of all its inhabitants, which is what the Note 4 on Arceus profile states.


The Everlasting, SomebodyData and I seem to have (as far as I am not misinterpreting their responses. I don't want to put words in their mouth) agreed in the thread that this reasoning doesn't hold (I will not copy over all arguments made in the thread. They are from post 20 onwards, which aren't that much text, especially if you skip the parts about immortality and danmaku).


Ultimately the suggestion of giving Arceus Darkrai's ablilities was rejected, but the Note of the profile which states that he should have them remains.

All in all I just want to suggest removing Note 4 based on the arguments already given in that thread.

 

[SomebodyData]

I agree with this removal.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Yeah, the note always felt really fishy and presumptuous for me. I agree with removing it.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with removing it.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

If it's not supposed to be there and such, I don't mind the removal of it then.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I find it funny how most other creator deities can have all of their inhabitants powers, but Arceus has to take it with a grain of salt. Regardless, that note is impractical, so I'm for removing it.

 

[DontTalk]

I find it funny how most other creator deities can have all of their inhabitants powers, but Arceus has to take it with a grain of salt.

Of the thousand tier 2 and above characters for which we have profiles I have actually not seen it assumed for anyone else to be honest. (well, I only know a fraction of those profiles to be fair and for even less would I see it if the page doesn't directly mention it)


On the other hand I know plently characters for which it isn't assumed.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's because they all aren't creator deities.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Regardless. I've removed the note.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Even Mew, who's stated to be able to learn all Pokémon moves, doesn't have it listed.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, being able to learn all moves Ôëá having them. And that is also strictly moves only, not all abilities. The same could be said for ditto.

I mean we don't give Medaka all abilities from Medaka Box either, but just those we know she learnt.

Quite frankly how does mew even relate to the issue? Isn't it a different cup of tea entirely, given that the argumentation for mew is completly different?


Also I think the majority of 2-C+ are creator deities. Most 2-C+ characters are capable of reality warping the universe like they please, which includes reality warping it back into existence after everything in it was destroyed for example.

2-C+ which have not this level of reality warping are actually more the exception than the rule.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I already removed the note, so that discussion was done. I told you that I agree with it. And we recently gave Dragonoid from Bakugan what I'm dubbing the Medaka ability, but it's actually considered usable unlike Medaka.

 

[DaFritzi]

This is from the sinnoh myth: "People and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness. People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence"

As far as we have already agreed on, the OS is in every pokemon/person. This part of the myth however goes as far as stating directly that everyone was part of Arceus. Or in other words Arceus was everyone. (later on Arceus must have decided that it must be better for everyone to have their own identity and pulled himself back leaving only a part of his spirit behind)

Going with this means that all pokemon are part of Arceus, therefore all of their abilities/moves are also part of Arceus.

Therefore Arceus should have all abilities/moves of all pokemon. It not having access to them in the game must either be due to lazy producers (that have no understanding of their own creation) or for balancing reasons (e.g. Arceus with all moves available would need to be banned from competitive gaming). Given how plagued Arceus is with the most ridiculous PIS I'm not even surprised.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Banned Pokémon already exist

 

[DaFritzi]

I know they screwed up on mega rayray (still Arceus with all moves would be way worse). That was only a possibility and doesn't invalidate the rest of my statement.

The "were but the same presence" part is very convincing imo.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well you're kinda using a combination of speculation and accidently bringing the question, which came first the chicken or the egg (Mew), as it would also count Mew but since Arceus is a pokemon which means mew came before Arceus and etc...

Also sharing spirit / awareness does not equal having the powers (As it would mean the rest of the Pokemon verse would also be 2-B) and Yugi would have the powers of Atem.

It could also just be part of their mythos.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Who's the first Pokémon? Mew, Arceus, Bulbasaur, or Rhydon? ovo

 

[SomebodyData]

The world (*Breathes deeply) may never know.

 

[DaFritzi]

I don't know why you bring up Mew here, but it being the first pokemon and Arceus being it's creator is no contradiction. If you're interested in the how and why I can explain my theory.

 

[SomebodyData]

In that case, then just full-blown speculation. (Though I do want to hear your theory, this place isn't the appropriate one.)

 

[DaFritzi]

Now to the main point: "People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence"

We're not talking sharing spirit anymore, we're talking everything was Arceus. This means that at this point everything was one being. After this something must have happened leading to the current state of the pokemon world (Arceus must have decided that it must be better for everyone to have their own identity and pulled himself back leaving only a part of his spirit behind).

EDIT: I'll write you on your wall.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Who's the first Pokémon? Mew, Arceus, Bulbasaur, or Rhydon? ovo

 

[Joseph619]

Who's the first Pokémon? Mew, Arceus, Bulbasaur, or Rhydon? ovo

You can only pick arceus or rhydon (arceus as creator inverse, rhydon as concept in reality). Bulbasaur's dex number is just standard for all regional starter pokemons (grass usually first). Mew being ancestor of all pokemon was completely retconned.

 

[FTW395]

Arceus can't learn all the TM's, so why would you assume he can do every move?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Arceus can't learn all the TM's, so why would you assume he can do every move?

Because he's the absolute creator..But this is irrelevant as the note has been removed.

 

[DaFritzi]

@FTW395. Because that's a limitation the gameplay puts on Arceus, for the same reason they shot him with a meteor.

 

[FTW395]

@DaFritzi No it's not, Arceus not being able to learn all the TM's doesn't classify as game mechanics in anyway. Besides Pokemon moves could be something created by the Pokemon itself and thus the creator shouldn't have to know each one of them.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So by this Arceus shouldn't be able to use more than 4 moves or more than one plate....TM's are irrelevant to this discussion since now you are unneccesarily beating a dead horse...Drop it. The Note was removed...

 

[DaFritzi]

@FTW395 of course it is the game that limits arceus in this way, the anime/manga/lore never did

Also according to the statement in the sinnoh myth, in the beginning every pokemon and every person was part of the same being, the original spirit. As such every move and every ability was as well.

@SomebodyData how did you like my extended version of the creation myth?

 

[FTW395]

@Dragon No because the 4 moves does classify as game mechanics, however Arceus not having the ability to learn all TM's was a deliberate developer choice that in no way has anything to do with game mechanics. Case in point being Mew who they gave the ability to learn all the TM's. But okay I'll drop this because it's been removed anyway.

 

[NeoZex6399]

@Dragon No because the 4 moves does classify as game mechanics, however Arceus not having the ability to learn all TM's was a deliberate developer choice that in no way has anything to do with game mechanics. Case in point being Mew who they gave the ability to learn all the TM's. But okay I'll drop this because it's been removed anyway.

Well, Mew can not learn all the moves, even so...

 

[NeoZex6399]

@Cal Mega Arceus is about to happen and you know it... XD

[Gen 4 remake is coming]