Ability Pages Revision - Abstract Manipulation Hax Standards

[NHTkenshin2]

In the Conceptual Manipulation page, it is stated that some of the possible uses of being a conceptual manipulation user is Creating, Altering or Destroying Concepts, that much is made very clear to us.

Possible Uses​

• Concept Creation: The ability to create concepts. By using this ability, destroyed concepts can be restored or new ones created, giving the user the ability to create fundamental principles that govern reality and the world around them. With this power, one can create a concept that is unfathomable to the current mind, changing the world to match this new conceptual universal.
• Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.
• Concept Destruction: The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted, either erasing the concept of an overarching fundamental principle, such as space, or an individual. When destroyed at this level, nothing can be restored without using similarly powerful conceptual creation. Conventional regeneration or resurrection, no matter how powerful, would prove impossible as the very abstract concept of the character would not exist.

One might say, as the naming suggests, this simply means that if you have shown what it needs to be a conceptual manipulation user, some of the stuff you can do with such a hax is Conceptual Creation, Altering or Destruction, and is doesn't inherently mean destroying a concept for example equates to acquiring this hax.

But no, that actually isnt the case here. As most of the popular examples of Conceptual Manipulation have shown, all of them have to do with Creating, Destroying or Using concepts (Ex. Anos Voldigoad, Dante, The Scarlet King, Kratos and many more) most of the time having literally nothing to do with actually Manipulating a concept or having full dominion over concepts.

My question is, how exactly does that fall under Conceptual Manipulation? (Which is by literal definition; the manipulation of a concept) most of the guys that qualify for this hax haven't actually shown the ability to control or manipulate concepts.
This becomes EVEN A BIGGER problem when you realise that there is other hax out there that have rules specifically against such cases.
Plot Manipulation being one of them that honestly shocked me when i found out that destroying Plots or Narratives apparently doesn't qualify for Plot Manipulation because, somehow, Plot Manipulation is ONLY for completely and utterly controling a Plot, a clear contradiction here when you remember both Concepts and Plots aren't that different, qualitatively speaking.

Other examples of this are shown in other hax as well

Solutions​

1. Change the rules for most of the Manipulation hax that have to do with something abstract and make them all align with their own definitions, the Manipulation of X.
2. Change the Rules for Plot Manipulation and other haxes like it, and make it so it functions just like Conceptual Manipulation and other haxes.

 

[Mafuuu]

Are there cases where destroying the narrative or plot (certainly in cases where the plot here meets the standards of plot manipulation) doesn't get plot manipulation? Well, I think option two makes more sense. Because if I remember correctly "manipulating" a certain Hax can be obtained from, creating, destroying or influencing.

 

[Mafuuu]

I mean, only the plot manipulation was changed (but if there is the same case of course there should be changes)

 

[KLOL506]

Can't speak for Dante and the others, but I am afraid you have no clue with regards to how the CM for Kratos and Zeus work.

We see Zeus in GOW3 manipulating and sealing the Great Evils on-screen. Zeus literally becomes Fear itself.

Kratos wields Hope as a weapon against Fear Zeus, kicking the everloving crap out of him. He is literally encompassed by it, he is also blatantly shown on-screen channeling it through his Blades of Exile and Blade of Olympus. That's textbook manipulation.

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Aetheric Pariah Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

The same thing that happens with Kratos happens with Dante, Names are abstract concepts and Sparda familia and mundus can not only destroy it but also change or create it, which affects the world itself.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

There's also Tony/Dante name shenanigans.
There's also Mundus changing Vergil's name to Nelo Angelo.

 

[Planck69]

A lot of these examples are pretty flawed to begin with. Zeus and Athena can wield and seal the Evils, which are Independent Concepts. And Kratos can fully use Hope itself in battle to banish Fear away.

Dante's been explained above as well.

 

[Planck69]

Also, what even is the point of this thread anyway? You seem to have a problem with creation and destruction of concepts qualifying for the ability?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Are there cases where destroying the narrative or plot (certainly in cases where the plot here meets the standards of plot manipulation) doesn't get plot manipulation?

Yep, my Mandrakk thread got rejected by an Administrator because i wasn't aware that Devouring a Narrative didn't grant Plot Manipulation.
Something that obviously confused me, considering we do give Conceptual Manipulation to characters capable of Destroying concepts.

Also, what even is the point of this thread anyway? You seem to have a problem with creation and destruction of concepts qualifying for the ability?

We dont give Plot Manipulation to Plot Destroyers, but we give Conceptual Manipulation to Concept destroyers.

Im trying to find a solution to that

A lot of these examples are pretty flawed to begin with. Zeus and Athena can wield and seal the Evils, which are Independent Concepts. And Kratos can fully use Hope itself in battle to banish Fear away.

Dante's been explained above as well.

Yeah sure, forgive me. but the justifications on their pages definitely hinted at the reasoning behind them having CM was based on Destroying concepts, thats probably where the confusion came from.

 

[Planck69]

.....Is that it? You made this thread because we don't treat two different powers the exact same way?

 

[Comiphorous]

Conceptual Manipulation and Plot Manipulation are nothing alike, and wouldn't be treated the same in the first place.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

.....Is that it? You made this thread because we don't treat two different powers the exact same way?

Kind of, yeah.

Concepts and Plots aren't seen that much of deferent ideas, qualitatively at least. Both are the settings that govern all of realtiy
And we dont consider one to be automatically beyond the other in a fictional setting, so PM should have the exact same rules as CM.

 

[Planck69]

Kind of, yeah.

Concepts and Plots aren't seen that much of deferent ideas, qualitatively at least. Both are the settings that govern all of realtiy
And we dont consider one to be automatically beyond the other in a fictional setting, so PM should have the exact same rules as CM.

They are fundamentally not the same though. Just because they can accomplish similar things doesn't mean the same rules apply to them

 

[Reiner04]

plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot, that's it while conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create or destroy the concept both are different by very definition but there is a possible use of plot Manipulation as destroying plot listed I suppose:

Users may erase things by erasing any mention of them from the plot.

This can be achieved via erasing the plot itself as well tho.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

They are fundamentally not the same though. Just because they can accomplish similar things doesn't mean the same rules apply to them

They aren't literally the same thing, of course. But their functions aren't that different

Even just moving away from them both as ideas, both of them as Powers and Abilites, their requirements shouldn't be seen as that different. Right?

 

[Planck69]

They aren't literally the same thing, of course. But their functions aren't that different

Even just moving away from them both as ideas, both of them as Powers and Abilites, their requirements shouldn't be seen as that different. Right?

...No. What? One's the abstract essence of an object or force and the others the metal fictional level of reality within the setting.

They can do a lot of the same things but so can many powers. It doesn't mean they jave the same mechanics.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

...No. What? One's the abstract essence of an object or force and the others the metal fictional level of reality within the setting.

They can do a lot of the same things but so can many powers. It doesn't mean they jave the same mechanics.

Im genuinely not sure how to phrase this in the best way possible.

Both are settings that govern reality, both are settings as a whole. They are not the same, of course, i never said that, but as powers and abilities, we give characters capable of destroying Concepts, Conceptual Manipulation, that much is very explicit, straight up stated in the Page

We dont do the same for Plot Manipulation, even though by the very definitions of Manipulation, both of them shouldn't qualify for the Manipulation of Plot/Concept, but still, we give CM to characters capable of destroying a Concept, and not characters capable of destroying a Plot.

So why is that? Why dont we give PM to characters capable of destroying Plots? Thats the whole post, sorry for the confusion.

 

[Theglassman12]

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Nothing about plot manipulation or destroying the plot remotely makes it the same as concept hax.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Honestly, I don't think we have some standard by which erasing a plot (directly, via an ability and a proper plot that qualifies as such by plot manip standards) can not be listed as plot manip? One doesn't have to list it as such, EE to the plot level explains the ability just as well, but one could as far as I am concerned.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Honestly, I don't think we have some standard by which erasing a plot (directly, via an ability and a proper plot that qualifies as such by plot manip standards) can not be listed as plot manip? One doesn't have to list it as such, EE to the plot level explains the ability just as well, but one could as far as I am concerned.

So there isnt a rule that stops characters capable of destroying the Plot having Plot Manipulation?

 

[Reiner04]

Honestly, I don't think we have some standard by which erasing a plot (directly, via an ability and a proper plot that qualifies as such by plot manip standards) can not be listed as plot manip? One doesn't have to list it as such, EE to the plot level explains the ability just as well, but one could as far as I am concerned.

So... Destroying a plot can be listed as Plot manp with a proper justification that how Plot is being affected (destroying, EE, etc (?))

 

[NHTkenshin2]

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Nothing about plot manipulation or destroying the plot remotely makes it the same as concept hax.

Correct, But thats not the point of this thread. Refer back to this

We dont do the same for Plot Manipulation, even though by the very definitions of Manipulation, both of them shouldn't qualify for the Manipulation of Plot/Concept, but still, we give CM to characters capable of destroying a Concept, and not characters capable of destroying a Plot.

So why is that? Why dont we give PM to characters capable of destroying Plots? Thats the whole post, sorry for the confusion.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So there isnt a rule that stops characters capable of destroying the Plot having Plot Manipulation?

So... Destroying a plot can be listed as Plot manp with a proper justification that how Plot is being affected (destroying, EE, etc (?))

As far as I am concerned, yes. I don't think we have any written rule against it nor do I remember a thread where we discussed that it shouldn't be done.

Of course, I'm not the sole authority on this or anything like that.

 

[Reiner04]

Of course, I'm the sole authority on this.

my Mandrakk thread got rejected by an Administrator because i wasn't aware that Devouring a Narrative didn't grant Plot Manipulation.

Redo it dude.

 

[Firestorm808]

Moving this thread to the staff section as this involves revising an ability page(s).

The site has its own definition of Plot Manipulation.

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...

vsbattles.fandom.com

We don't use creating or destroying in our definition. Plot Manipulation is exclusively altering the plot.

@Antvasima @Deagonx

Can you help clarify the matter?

 

[Reiner04]

I suppose the definition can be changed to match the conceptual and other types of Manipulation because as DT suggested, affecting Plot should be listed as Plot manp like all other manp abilities.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

1. Change the rules for most of the Manipulation hax that have to do with something abstract and make them all align with their own definitions, the Manipulation of X.
2. Change the Rules for Plot Manipulation and other haxes like it, and make it so it functions just like Conceptual Manipulation and other haxes.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Bump

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Bump

 

[Xearsay]

We don't use creating or destroying in our definition. Plot Manipulation is exclusively altering the plot.

Actually yes we do. As we have given characters plot manipulation for bringing an end to or closing the narrative which governs reality. Yet for some random reason, you and few others with dishonest intent tried to flip up the rules when it came to Mandrakk and say it wasn’t plot manipulation.

Anyway I agree with NHTKenshin.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yet for some random reason, you and few others with dishonest intent tried to flip up the rules when it came to Mandrakk and say it wasn’t plot manipulation.

What's with the accusations? The definition is right there on the ability page. I didn't set the definition.

"Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality."

If you have complaints about the definition and want to include creating or destroying in our definition, keep it to that topic. Don't try to lump people into some conspiracy against one character.

 

[Firestorm808]

Actually yes we do. As we have given characters plot manipulation for bringing an end to or closing the narrative which governs reality.

What example are you referring to? The link is broken.

 

[Fixxed]

Wait... destroy plot cannot be plot manipulation? Why?

 

[Reiner04]

Wait... destroy plot cannot be plot manipulation? Why?

The definition is different.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Wait... destroy plot cannot be plot manipulation? Why?

 

[Reiner04]

Actually yes we do. As we have given characters plot manipulation for bringing an end to or closing the narrative which governs reality. Yet for some random reason, you and few others with dishonest intent tried to flip up the rules when it came to Mandrakk and say it wasn’t plot manipulation.

Anyway I agree with NHTKenshin.

There is no dishonesty, most ppl or staff who has replied here had the same opinion when saw the case as what is written on the profile. You can argue against it but accusations is not the way to do it.

Anyway, let's move on and stay on the topic.

 

[Fixxed]

The definition is different.

What definition exactly?

 

[Reiner04]

What definition exactly?

To control the plot is plot manp.

 

[Fixxed]

To control the plot is plot manp.

Well that is weird.... just change it to something more flexible

Create, control, destroy is more cool

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Does bringing an end or destroy the story gives plot? I think it should give.