Ability for Undertale Characters

[MarvelFanatic119]

Hey look, a thread about Undertale that ISN'T a downgrade thread. That's new.

Kidding aside, I was wondering if we can add Durability Negation to all UT Characters, as their Magic allows them to harm one's SOUL, ignoring Durability.

 

[Andykhang]

If it durability negation, then you shouldn't need the DEF stat in the first place. Not to mention it's more like a system that granted this.


edit: So yeah, it's a type of DN? that should probably be already included as a type of soul manipulation though

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

If it durability negation, then you shouldn't need the DEF stat in the first place. Not to mention it's more like a system that granted this.

edit: So yeah, it's a type of DN? that should probably be already included as a type of soul manipulation though

DEF stat is only for the UT verse, where all of the monsters and humans use their SOULs to fight. Of course they would have defense over SOUL Magic, since they use it themselves. They can attack on both the physical and spiritual level.

Soul Manipulation can be counted as Durability Negation, according to the DN page.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Yeah. I agree with this, Sans' demonstrates this durability negation very well in his fight, using his soul manipulation and the Dura Negation, he managed to destroy Chara ((A tier 2-B)) with an attack stat of 1, 1!!

 

[Blahblah9755]

I agree that this should be added, although Penguin, keep in mind that Sans dura negates via Karmic Retribution AND soul attacking, and against Chara it was much more the former than the latter.

Also shouldn't resistance to soul/spiritual attacks be added to them as well?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Agreeing with Blak on how Sans does the negating durability effect on how Sans does it. But would that mean everyone can just hurt souls? And if everyone's just tossing around their souls wouldn't Flowey be able to claim their souls easier?

And it's not really destroying if Sans never won against Chara tbh, unless it's gameplay mechanics turned to canon story.

Not really supporting the soul damage though considering the Def value. Saying they have some way to boost their DEF by using items is kinda tricky too. After all that's if we believe immediately that they can attack on a spiritual level. And then you have things such as Mad Dummy and Napstablook who you can't hurt so yeah...

 

[Blahblah9755]

Well magic is specifically meant to be attacking the soul, Frisk probably isn't doing that since he can't harm napstablook or mad dummy. When Frisk kills Asgore and Toriel and their SOUL breaks, it's likely meant to show that their body died and their SOUL was there for them to take, but instead they chose to let it fade away.

Sans did "destroy" Chara, in the sense that they died and their soul was destroyed, but they came back afterwards via SAVE/LOAD.

Also Flowey didn't have any trouble just taking the monster's SOULs, he just needed to get them gathered together

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Blablah I always thought it was just there for show to show how strong they can stay to survive. Determination to an extent basically, though they can't use it like humans.

True but it's still arguable...

I concede on that.

@MarvelFanatic

Gotcha

But yeah Mad Dummy and Napstablook's spiritual nature is what makes me question it all.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Agreeing with Blak on how Sans does the negating durability effect on how Sans does it. But would that mean everyone can just hurt souls? And if everyone's just tossing around their souls wouldn't Flowey be able to claim their souls easier?
And it's not really destroying if Sans never won against Chara tbh, unless it's gameplay mechanics turned to canon story.

Not really supporting the soul damage though considering the Def value. Saying they have some way to boost their DEF by using items is kinda tricky too. After all that's if we believe immediately that they can attack on a spiritual level. And then you have things such as Mad Dummy and Napstablook who you can't hurt so yeah...

Sans still kills Chara multiple times despite Sans only having 1 ATK and Chara having 99 DEF via KR and Blue Mode.

Frisk uses physical attacks on Mad Dummy or Napstablook, not magical attacks. Mad Dummy even says only Magical Attacks can harm beings like him in his fight. It's likely monsters have this ability, considering Napstablook's tears were able to hurt Mad Dummy, so yeah. But still, good point bringing them up, I almost forgot about that.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

That's if we account that the user has reloaded several times before. Undertale is very Meta so technically yeah that's true. His ability bypasses conventional durablity after all.

Was it like that? I always thought he was just annoyed with the attacks. I'm going to replay to see.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm...I don't know if all SOUL damage is durability negation. Sans definitely showcases it, but everyone else...not sure. Granted, what we do know is SOUL damage does not heal regularly, so physical Regenerationn would not heal damage done from it, but other than that, not sure.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

That's if we account that the user has reloaded several times before. Undertale is very Meta so technically yeah that's true. His ability bypasses conventional durablity after all.
Was it like that? I always thought he was just annoyed with the attacks. I'm going to replay to see.

Yeah, Sans has it definitely. I'm pretty sure Toby Fox accounted people who don't know about the Sans fight would die a lot, otherwise we wouldn't have Sans counting how many times you've died against him. "that expression...that's the expression of someone who's died...times in a row"

Well, Frisk couldn't hurt Mad Dummy, just redirect the dummies' attacks on himself and he tells them:

"OWWW, you DUMMIES!! Watch where you're aiming your MAGIC attacks!...Hey! You! Forget I said anything about MAGIC!!!"

He definitely felt pain from that given what he said, not to mention it actually made contact with him.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well the thing is that most Undertale characters most likely possess resistence to Soul attacks. Since damage done to the soul also scales to the power of the character. I don't see how you can damage the soul of someone without it being dura negation. Since most characters likely do not have a strong soul to protect from SOULs attack.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Hmm...I don't know if all SOUL damage is durability negation. Sans definitely showcases it, but everyone else...not sure. Granted, what we do know is SOUL damage does not heal regularly, so physical Regenerationn would not heal damage done from it, but other than that, not sure.

Alright, just wanted to see if it was a possibility is all.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Well the thing is that most Undertale characters most likely possess resistence to Soul attacks. Since damage done to the soul also scales to the power of the character. I don't see how you can damage the soul of someone without it being dura negation. Since most characters likely do not have a strong soul to protect from SOULs attack.

Well, Humans like Frisk and Chara have very powerful SOULs, and Monsters have bodies mostly made of MAGIC, so I see your point there.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean there is not much reasons for Firsk to have a harder time dealing hurting Asgore than a random mook if no Soul Attacks resistence is involved. The damage would be the same otherwise.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Hmm...I don't know if all SOUL damage is durability negation. Sans definitely showcases it, but everyone else...not sure. Granted, what we do know is SOUL damage does not heal regularly, so physical Regenerationn would not heal damage done from it, but other than that, not sure.

Well if SOUL damage can't be healed regularly even by physical Regenerationn, which works for a physical body, then that should be Durability Negation.

This is what I got from the page about DN:

• Soul Manipulation - Those who manipulate souls, can bypass conventional durability. It can be resisted only by the strength of the soul. However, such attacks are effective only on those who have souls. Also, if for some reason soul manipulation fails, then this ability is completely futile.

So it should work on beings with SOULs (at least the Undertale definition of one), but not beings without them (again, by Undertale standards).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I suppose then yes, you could consider it a form of durability negation.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean we already have Soul Manip on their profiles so I don't think much changes would be needed.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I suppose you can probably just mention "can ignore durability to an extent" under AP, or whatever.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

That's alright. I just wanted to see if

SOUL Magic = A form of Durability Negation

that's all. Though I think I saw some profiles with Durability Negation even if things like Intangibility and Matter Manipulation (which should be included in DN) are there. It would also it make it easier if the ability where in the profile so people would know SOUL Magic bypasses Durability. Just my opinion.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

@Azathoth

Thanks. Would you add that part in the locked profiles (Sans, Undyne, etc.) if you can please?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth
Thanks. Would you add that part in the locked profiles (Sans, Undyne, etc.) if you can please?

Sure.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

"Hooray I'm useful" ~Zoidberg

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

^Me right now.

@Azathoth

Thanks.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

So... Any UT character that face a NOT UT character (and without any resistance to soul attack) would win?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I think it depends whether or not the opponent has a SOUL (which is the cumulation of one's being) or not. Not to mention someone faster and higher AP can still take them out before any UT character has the chance via speedblitzing.

 

[Fllflourine]

Also if the speed is equalized or not, it depends on many other factors as well too.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So... Any UT character that face a NOT UT character (and without any resistance to soul attack) would win?

Not even close. They'd just be able to deal damage when they normally couldn't. For instance, a Small Town level character dealing SOUL damage to a city level character would presumably need quite a lot of good hits to take down the city level character, but there would actually be the possibility of them doing so due to durability negation.

 

[Verivici]

They also do damage to the physical body as proven by Flowey, what's the problem here?

And yes, I find it to be very likely they do indeed have this durability negating SOUL hax tbh. It would explain how Toriel can fight (a very early-game version of) Chara

But whatevs.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Fight Chara. She got oneshotted didn't she? Literally nothing can be done to prevent an attack from her.

But agreeing with what Azath is saying. Still find it unlikely that it scales to everyone though considering Napstablook...

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Again, Napstablook can't be hurt by physical attacks, but by magic attacks. Magic can counter that considering Frisk/Chara only used physcial attacks at the time and both were nowhere near their peak when they fought Napstablook. Mad Dummy said that himself.

Straight from the Mad Dummy battle:

"Because they're a ghost, physical attacks will fail. [Check]"

Unless Napstablook is a different type of ghost, I believe the same applies to them.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Durability bypassing via soul attacks should only be given to monsters, humans can't use magic, so Chara and Frisk shouldn't get it, but I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere that monsters are made of magic, and magic attacks the soul, or the culmination of one's being. These two things in conjunction mean that magic can harm both on a physical (because it's physically tangible and can therefore apply force/energy) and spiritual (because it attacks the soul) level, and should therefore ignore durability.

In fact since it can affect the soul, which by UT definition is the culmination of one's being, it can likely hit on more than just the physical and spiritual plane, but I won't go into that.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It was only Dummy that you ever faced and was damaged with a magical attack. And don't ghosts and spirits from other franchises get hurt by magical attack before? Why can't it be the same here? Wouldn't that basically conflict with the idea that you can harm others physically but not these guys since they have soul damaging abilities?

Though thinking about it they would've had an easier time taking out humans if they relied on physical attacks instead of magic attacks that damage the soul. And wouldn't in definition anyone from another verse be basically be able to harm their soul if it exists on a physical plane to the point that it can be seen by others?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Not sure what you mean there in the first point.

Humans have MUCH more powerful SOULs than Monsters and most monsters (minus ghosts like Mad Dummy and Napstablook) have physical bodies. The strength of their SOULs is basically gave the Humans the victory and seal the monsters under Mt.Ebott.

No, not everyone can hurt your SOUL. Undertale is a verse where everyone is able to use the power of their SOUL and the Monsters can only hurt humans due to their Magic which affects the SOUL .

The Undertale definition of the SOUL is "the cumulation of one's being". There is no evidence suggesting the SOUL is a physical object. The only reason the six Human SOULs can be contained is because they can persist after death via Determination and the fact the Monsters have done thorough research on them combining Magic and Science (as shown in the True Lab).

Though I think the Monsters should have Durability Negation but not the Humans. As Chara and Frisk don't show any ability to use Magic, only the Determination from their SOUL.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

What I mean is if other franchises have ghosts that can be hurt by magic, would that mean they also have spiritual damaging magic?

Fair enough.

But if it's a cumulation of one's being and everything that makes them 'them'-

A human's SOUL is not the entirety of their being, but rather their essence housed in a physical body. This is why humans are stronger than monsters when it comes to physical attacks.

"A human's SOUL is not the entirety of their being, but rather their essence housed in a physical body."

Well just a little quote I got but basically if their spiritual everything is basically gathered inside a phsyical body, wouldn't that mean that if it breaks it shatters and fades away basically? Scatters as it can't hold itself back? Or maybe that's why the heart persists after death. For all we know after all when we lose in Undertale the hearts that 'breaks' could've been simply collected by Asgore later on or by some other character. Then again it's questionable but it's still something to consider.

After all technically there were only six children that 'died' right? If they were all killed yet their soul is still out there? Would explain why their still persisting even with Determination. We can't just say that the soul was damaged so hard and killed by the monster so the human died but still had enough determination to persist. After all only Frisk was able to ever to do that. So there's a chance that when you do die, it's basically your physical body being broken and causing the culimination of being to break, and be captured like all the other hearts/souls.

That's why I always thought that Asriel was simply trying to absorb your soul in the final battle but your determination was too much for him.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Depends on the type of Magic being used and whether or not those "ghosts" can't be hurt by any physical means. In this case, considering Magic in UT comes straight from the SOUL and the fact both Napstablook and Mad Dummy can't be harmed physically, pretty sure Magic in UT can harm souls. All Humans have Determination. The Talk about Determination came from Alphys studying the Human SOULs they collected, not Frisk. It's already shown that Frisk has far greater Determination than the other Six Humans, as they fought Asriel who had the equivalent of SEVEN Human SOULs.

The Humans physcial body is destroyed, but their SOUL is still very much alive.

"We can't just say that the soul was damaged so hard and killed by the monster so the human died but still had enough determination to persist."

Yes we can. That's the literal definition of Determination. The ability to persist after Death. The will to keep living.

The Heart "breaking" basically means Death. Nothing more nothing less. The Monsters were able to collect the SOULs due to them being strong to persist after Death and able to contain and trap them. Assuming that the heart breaking is someone collecting it is just that, an assumption.

Humans have physical bodies and a SOUL.

Monsters have bodies made of magic and a SOUL.

These are just the main differences between Humans and Monsters. And the fact a Monster's power is dependent on their emotional state. Humans leave their bodies behind when they die and their SOUL leaves (like the Six Humans and Chara) while Monsters turn to dust (with the exception of ghosts who inhabit objects as physical bodies like Mettaton and Tsunderplane) due to their bodies being made of Magic that comes from their SOUL.

Nope. Asriel is explicitly trying to destroy you because your Determination is on par with his, meaning neither of you can't SAVE or LOAD anymore while both of you still exist. He literally says that:

"After I destroy you and gain total control over the timeline, I just want to reset everything."

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Didn't consider some of those points. Fair enough.

True but again, that doesn't exactly cancel the idea that it was their phsyical body being destroyed that caused them to die and for their soul to break, only to persister with the power of determination then?

Though if that was the case then that makes me question if there were actually more than six children that fell there and they all died somewhere.... Fridge horror but highly unlikely. Anyway yeah so it is Frisk dying then but again it could still be a physical container being shattered and letting the gathered culimination of existence/SOUL to break instead of destroying the SOUL itself.

That said if you said the monsters have bodies made of magic, then in that case would that mean Napstablook and Dummy stimply had a physically resistance form inmstead of being spirit in composition and nature?

Well either way it's not anything I say here would really stop the changes right?

Though I'm pretty sure destroy can also allude to absorb since they would get the same effect of eradicating a threat. After all his lines began to show desperation at that point. Anyway where was I heading with this? Ah yes. I have no idea so I'm gonna head back.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Though I'm pretty sure destroy can also allude to absorb since they would get the same effect of eradicating a threat. After all his lines began to show desperation at that point.

...Wat.

The entire first half of the fight is Asriel ******* with Frisk. That's the opposite of desperation.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Oh wait, right. That was said on the first half. I thought it was the second half. I withdraw that statement.