-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
A STAND VS A PERSONA - Ren Amimiya vs Giorno Giovanna
- Thread starter Shinrya
- Start date
- Status
- 302
- 17
rip ger, he died
- 12,085
- 2,094
That would be Type 1 Acausality, which doesn't protect you from GER
- 889
- 128
Doesn't causality manipulation just allow you to manipulate cause and effect? That's almost nothing like changing the past.
- 14,113
- 11,068
That's literally just Type 1 Acasuality. nless there's more to it then youre saying, as youre describing it right now, it's just acasuality type 1, which isnt really anything special.
- 14,113
- 11,068
You're extrapolating the **** outta that, and even if that was the case, GER still effects those that have Type 1 acausality.
Changing the past changes the future, depending on the verse. But not via manipulating cause and effect, by simply making it so it never happened. If Joker survived having his past changed, that's Type 1 Acasuality, that's all it is, it's not gonna protect you from making it c&e manip, itll protect you from having your past self killed and time travel but it doesnt correlate with c&e unless you do a bunch of mental gymnastics. And that's assuming that's even Type 1 acasuality, some verses work on a self correcting timeline.
Changing the past changes the future, depending on the verse. But not via manipulating cause and effect, by simply making it so it never happened. If Joker survived having his past changed, that's Type 1 Acasuality, that's all it is, it's not gonna protect you from making it c&e manip, itll protect you from having your past self killed and time travel but it doesnt correlate with c&e unless you do a bunch of mental gymnastics. And that's assuming that's even Type 1 acasuality, some verses work on a self correcting timeline.
- 14,113
- 11,068
>another thing to change
Ever consider that the way you think it works isnt actually true? It's not stupid, as said, you're extrapolating super hard. And even if that was the case, RTZ works on those with Type 1 anyway so it wouldnt mean anything even if it gave resistance, which it doesnt.
Ever consider that the way you think it works isnt actually true? It's not stupid, as said, you're extrapolating super hard. And even if that was the case, RTZ works on those with Type 1 anyway so it wouldnt mean anything even if it gave resistance, which it doesnt.
- 8,189
- 1,928
Uh..Well, let's break this down....piece by piece.
First, I'm not exactly interested in arguing this match. So I won't be talking about Giorno or Ren's abilities. You can argue inconclusive or Giorno wins, or whatever.
I'm merely baffled that such a horrendous viewpoint on causality manipulation has been allowed to survive this long.
"Changing the past changes the future, depending on the verse."
More-like, changes in the past effect the present, and decisions made in the present effect the future.
This is of course not considering verses who have weird time travel rules which go against that. In that case, this resistance to causality manipulation wouldn't apply to them. In the same way someone who resists time stop, also resists time slow, unless their verse has special rules which go against that precedent.
"It's not gonna protect you from making it c&e manip, itll protect you from having your past self killed and time travel but it doesn't correlate with c&e unless you do a bunch of mental gymnastics."
How in the world can you even attempt to make this argument? Time travel paradoxes have everything to do with cause and effect manipulation. The reason why it's even a win condition is because of the effect the past has on the present.
If you time travel back to the past and kill someone, the person in the present doesn't die because of weird supernatural happening. They are rendered long-dead by the effect of you killing them in the past, which is classic cause and effect shenanigans. In other words, not being affected by changes to the past, IS not being affected by cause and effect.
First, I'm not exactly interested in arguing this match. So I won't be talking about Giorno or Ren's abilities. You can argue inconclusive or Giorno wins, or whatever.
I'm merely baffled that such a horrendous viewpoint on causality manipulation has been allowed to survive this long.
"Changing the past changes the future, depending on the verse."
More-like, changes in the past effect the present, and decisions made in the present effect the future.
This is of course not considering verses who have weird time travel rules which go against that. In that case, this resistance to causality manipulation wouldn't apply to them. In the same way someone who resists time stop, also resists time slow, unless their verse has special rules which go against that precedent.
"It's not gonna protect you from making it c&e manip, itll protect you from having your past self killed and time travel but it doesn't correlate with c&e unless you do a bunch of mental gymnastics."
How in the world can you even attempt to make this argument? Time travel paradoxes have everything to do with cause and effect manipulation. The reason why it's even a win condition is because of the effect the past has on the present.
If you time travel back to the past and kill someone, the person in the present doesn't die because of weird supernatural happening. They are rendered long-dead by the effect of you killing them in the past, which is classic cause and effect shenanigans. In other words, not being affected by changes to the past, IS not being affected by cause and effect.
- 14,113
- 11,068
>How in the world can you even attempt to make this argument?
The same way everone else has.
>Time travel paradoxes have everything to do with cause and effect manipulation.
Half truth, theyre tied to cause and effect, but not cause and effect manipulation or in the way c&e manip is usually potrayed or use, it's like saying resisting Mewtwo's mindcontrolwould allow one to resist biological changes and physical transmutation of the brain effecting the mind, both involve effecting the mind but they sure as **** aint the same thing, unless you do some extreme mental gymnastics anyway.
> In other words, not being affected by changes to the past, IS not being affected by cause and effect.
You realize how big of a jump in logic that is right? What it is, is not being effected to changes to your past self, not being uneffected by cause and effect in general. Joker is effected by cause and effect all the time, him getting hurt by something is an effect of him being effected by cause and effect, if Joker got punched and is damaged, that's him being effected by cause and effect, the cause of him getting damaged is him getting punched, he needs a way better showing than what youre trying to suggest means he's immune,.Type 1 Acausality means that changes to your past self dont effect your present self, no that doesnt translate into being immune to c&e manip because it's effecting your present and future self in mst cases. Doesnt help Joker is shown bound to cause and effect all the time anyway which would lead one to belive it's the standard assumption of past changes harming present opposed to the mental gymnastics one has to take to get to the conclusion one is immune to cause and effect.
But hey, make a thread I guess, you dont gotta wait till the move, you can do it right now and as long as it's finished before the move is done it should be fine, and given the move is gonna last months, you have all the time in the world.
The same way everone else has.
>Time travel paradoxes have everything to do with cause and effect manipulation.
Half truth, theyre tied to cause and effect, but not cause and effect manipulation or in the way c&e manip is usually potrayed or use, it's like saying resisting Mewtwo's mindcontrolwould allow one to resist biological changes and physical transmutation of the brain effecting the mind, both involve effecting the mind but they sure as **** aint the same thing, unless you do some extreme mental gymnastics anyway.
> In other words, not being affected by changes to the past, IS not being affected by cause and effect.
You realize how big of a jump in logic that is right? What it is, is not being effected to changes to your past self, not being uneffected by cause and effect in general. Joker is effected by cause and effect all the time, him getting hurt by something is an effect of him being effected by cause and effect, if Joker got punched and is damaged, that's him being effected by cause and effect, the cause of him getting damaged is him getting punched, he needs a way better showing than what youre trying to suggest means he's immune,.Type 1 Acausality means that changes to your past self dont effect your present self, no that doesnt translate into being immune to c&e manip because it's effecting your present and future self in mst cases. Doesnt help Joker is shown bound to cause and effect all the time anyway which would lead one to belive it's the standard assumption of past changes harming present opposed to the mental gymnastics one has to take to get to the conclusion one is immune to cause and effect.
But hey, make a thread I guess, you dont gotta wait till the move, you can do it right now and as long as it's finished before the move is done it should be fine, and given the move is gonna last months, you have all the time in the world.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,468
- 7,262
This fight has been done so many damn times...
- 14,113
- 11,068
> I got bigger fish to fry.
I'm outright calling bullshit on that, as far as wiki matters go, trying to change how an entire state of being works is probably the biggest thing youhave to do unless you mean like irl shit.
>Btw, with your argument, you're not saying that in order to have resistance to causality manipulation you have to never ever be effected by any cause, are you?
No but I'm saying not being effected by changes to your past self sure as hell aint enough when everything else says the character is effected by cause and effect and nothing anywhere else suggests otherwise. That's a tremoundous leap in logic,especially when the thing in question may not even be tied to cause and effect depending on how the verse treats it.
I'm outright calling bullshit on that, as far as wiki matters go, trying to change how an entire state of being works is probably the biggest thing youhave to do unless you mean like irl shit.
>Btw, with your argument, you're not saying that in order to have resistance to causality manipulation you have to never ever be effected by any cause, are you?
No but I'm saying not being effected by changes to your past self sure as hell aint enough when everything else says the character is effected by cause and effect and nothing anywhere else suggests otherwise. That's a tremoundous leap in logic,especially when the thing in question may not even be tied to cause and effect depending on how the verse treats it.
- 8,189
- 1,928
"unless you mean like irl shit."
Yes. I'm still playing Persona Royal. And afterwards I've got to get more Steins; Gate 0 endings, Play through Zelda BoTW, finish my second playthough of the RE2 remake.
I've got a lot of stuff on my plate. I'll make the thread wen I'm in the mood to argue it.
Yes. I'm still playing Persona Royal. And afterwards I've got to get more Steins; Gate 0 endings, Play through Zelda BoTW, finish my second playthough of the RE2 remake.
I've got a lot of stuff on my plate. I'll make the thread wen I'm in the mood to argue it.
- 680
- 34
>Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity: Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past but remain just as vulnerable in the present
Even if somehow u manage to change it that would only mean rtz can bypass acausality type 1 as chariot said. Rtz's causality manip isnt about changing the past or erasing the cause of an effect. Rtz is about resetting/rewinding an effect to 0,it's effecting the present not the past. So that crt would mean nothing to giorno,maybe to other C&E manip users but not gio
Even if somehow u manage to change it that would only mean rtz can bypass acausality type 1 as chariot said. Rtz's causality manip isnt about changing the past or erasing the cause of an effect. Rtz is about resetting/rewinding an effect to 0,it's effecting the present not the past. So that crt would mean nothing to giorno,maybe to other C&E manip users but not gio
- 680
- 34
This is an old cursed matchup that will never work. Early ren should be able to stomp early giorno (not 100% certain tho),end ren stalemates end giorno with giorno having a better hax and ren having better all around stats and unless p5r ren resist temporal bfr,he gets sent to the shadow realm by novel giorno.
This match is finished anyways so someone should close this thread
This match is finished anyways so someone should close this thread
- 14,113
- 11,068
> I'll make the thread wen I'm in the mood to argue it.
Yet you're arguing it right now. If it's so obvious there really shouldn't be any issue.
>when exactly did RtZ work on someone with time paradox immunity?
JoJo characters in general according to secondary canon.
>it's like you didn't even read what I typed.
I read it, I simply think it's completely wrong and is a grade A case of extrapolation but if you wanna argue it actually make a thread for it, instead of arguing your point here.
Yet you're arguing it right now. If it's so obvious there really shouldn't be any issue.
>when exactly did RtZ work on someone with time paradox immunity?
JoJo characters in general according to secondary canon.
>it's like you didn't even read what I typed.
I read it, I simply think it's completely wrong and is a grade A case of extrapolation but if you wanna argue it actually make a thread for it, instead of arguing your point here.
- 63,487
- 8,486
Arguing Casaultiy is some of the most complex shit on this site and it's standards constantly fluctuate, it may not be so obvious
- 2,696
- 642
I have no idea how people can argue that "Acausality" and "Resistance to Causality Manipulation" are somehow mutually exclusive. It's in the freakin name.
Time as a concept is a series of events, a constantly progressing chain of causes and effects. The staple time paradox, the grandfather paradox, is explicitly defined as an inconsistency in causality. The cause that is "the grandfather" has the effect that is "the grandson is born". If the grandson then travels back in time to kill his grandfather, that is him removing the initial cause of his existence. If the grandson continues to exist, despite a linear timeline, then the grandson is immune to changes in causality. Resisting changes in causality (Resistance to Causality Manipulation), and being immune to them (Acausality), are just different levels of the same thing.
I have no idea how people can still think they are different.
Time as a concept is a series of events, a constantly progressing chain of causes and effects. The staple time paradox, the grandfather paradox, is explicitly defined as an inconsistency in causality. The cause that is "the grandfather" has the effect that is "the grandson is born". If the grandson then travels back in time to kill his grandfather, that is him removing the initial cause of his existence. If the grandson continues to exist, despite a linear timeline, then the grandson is immune to changes in causality. Resisting changes in causality (Resistance to Causality Manipulation), and being immune to them (Acausality), are just different levels of the same thing.
I have no idea how people can still think they are different.
- 17,730
- 17,050
Probably because Type 1 Acausality is literally just paradox immunity and standard causality-hax still affect those people. Type 2 (maybe), 4 and 5 are what allows you to resist causality manip. Hell, most people with Type 1 are still explicitly affected by cause and effect. You can harm them, kill them, punch them etc.
- 7,675
- 1,370
The idea of acausality type 1 is effectively that what you're resisting isn't the manipulation of causality, but the universe's natural causality after the past was changed. You're resisting an indirect effect of natural causality, rather than a true change to the function of causality.
- 8,189
- 1,928
"I read it, I simply think it's completely wrong and is a grade A case of extrapolation but if you wanna argue it actually make a thread for it, instead of arguing your point here."
@Chariot
I wasn't talking to you when I said that.
"Probably because Type 1 Acausality is literally just paradox immunity and standard causality-hax still affect those people."
^You phrase that sentence as if it is a universal truth. It's a rule created by the VSB community which probably hasn't even been properly analyzed since its inception. My analysis on it is that that rule is forking wrong.
But it's really useless arguing against you guys, because it's just been a repeating cycle of you asserting that "Type 1 acausality is not resistance to causality manipulation." Without actually arguing my point. (The only valid counter argument being that these people are still affected by cause and effect...however, that can also be said for literally anyone with resistance to causality manipulation. Very few characters who have resistance to it are universal constants)
Which is the reason why I refuse to argue it here, so stop trying to get me to do it @Chariot.
@Chariot
I wasn't talking to you when I said that.
"Probably because Type 1 Acausality is literally just paradox immunity and standard causality-hax still affect those people."
^You phrase that sentence as if it is a universal truth. It's a rule created by the VSB community which probably hasn't even been properly analyzed since its inception. My analysis on it is that that rule is forking wrong.
But it's really useless arguing against you guys, because it's just been a repeating cycle of you asserting that "Type 1 acausality is not resistance to causality manipulation." Without actually arguing my point. (The only valid counter argument being that these people are still affected by cause and effect...however, that can also be said for literally anyone with resistance to causality manipulation. Very few characters who have resistance to it are universal constants)
Which is the reason why I refuse to argue it here, so stop trying to get me to do it @Chariot.
- 14,113
- 11,068
>P5R Ren has yet to be updated who resists RTZ.
Did we not just go through this? Unless there's something else, type 1 ain't gonna be giving him resistance towards rtz, and the only way it could is if there's a huge crt on type 1 as a whole. And that's ignoring rtz works on characters who have type 1 anyway because type 1 isn't even that obscure, it exists within araki written JoJo material.
Did we not just go through this? Unless there's something else, type 1 ain't gonna be giving him resistance towards rtz, and the only way it could is if there's a huge crt on type 1 as a whole. And that's ignoring rtz works on characters who have type 1 anyway because type 1 isn't even that obscure, it exists within araki written JoJo material.
- 657
- 23
Lol this match still going
- 302
- 17
unfortunately....
somebody fricking close this jesus
somebody fricking close this jesus
- 18
- 0
Dude Ren resists causality manip in P5R thanks to Maruki's cognitive warping powers. In fact, Royal isn't even needed, Satanael completley negates it. RTZ has been canceled out by Dio in Eyes of Heaven. Plus He's already far faster than Giorno, and as it's shown, Giorno's own personal stats do not change upon using GER. This means that Joker outpaces AND one-shots Giorno. GER isn't gonna last forever. Girono would just give up if he can't hurt him.Chariot190 said:
- 14,113
- 11,068
>Dude Ren resists causality manip in P5R thanks to Maruki's cognitive warping powers
Which has nothing to do with the above arguments in Joker having res due to type 1. Also going by the Persona wiki, could be wrong, but Maruki's powers have absolutely nothing to do with causality, hell in the trivia section (for some reason) it even points out a potential weakness, plus hitting up a friend who just platted the game didnt exactly confirm it either. Tbh I'm not seeing where Maruki's cognitive powers manipulate cause and effect.
>Royal isn't even needed, Satanael completley negates it.
Only if Satanael itself is immune to RTZ in the first place. Otherwise it can't do anything. Which pre-royal, it most certainly doesn't.
>RTZ has been canceled out by Dio in Eyes of Heaven.
GER's RTZ is outright confirmed to work on some types of acasuals in EOH, and TWOH is the exact opposite of GER, they cancel each other other out due to having opposite powers. They stalemated. Not that it matters, Giorno was riddled with PIS in Eoh, the fact he only ever actually attempted RTZ once in the story should say as much, made even worse when GER can RTZ at range or at a whim yet opted not to.
>Plus He's already far faster than Giorno, and as it's shown, Giorno's own personal stats do not change upon using GER
Uh, so? Ignoring it's speed equal, meaning you're arguing a literal moot point, Giorno is a nonfactor in this match, Giorno could be slower than a snail, it doesn't matter when GER is fast enough to deal with any incoming threats while having the ability to act separately, or did you forget GER is sentient and is automatic and gas shown on screen to protect against threats Giorno can't?
>This means that Joker outpaces AND one-shots Giorno.
If, if, he can get around GER. If GER exists giorno could literally sit on his ass and do nothing and GER would act on its own to protect him. Case and point, litteraly the only scene we see of GER in the source material where it acts on its own to protect Giorno from a threat he can't react to and perceive and even goes as far to confirm Giorno isn't controlling him, as in the Stand ITSELF confirms it, via it's own words.
>GER isn't gonna last forever. Girono would just give up if he can't hurt him
GER Literally lasts forever so I don't know what you're talking about? Hell in the source material it Literally says the power is his forever. You even brought up EOH, a game where Giorno whips out GER halfway through it despite him having long defeated Diavolo by that point, if GER was gonna run out Giorno wouldn't have used it halfway through the game in a scripted cutscene. And Giorno doesn't have a say here, only GER does, and you kidding me? Giorno wouldn't give up, giorno's whole point as a character is the resolve to continue to do something against impossible odds even if fate itself is denying you, and GER is one who goes into things for the long haul, worse case scenario neither do anything and it's an eternal stalemate.
Anyway you clearly don't know much about GER (Not exactly a Persona expert myself but at least I ain't acting like what I'm saying is absolute) and your points contradict each other. You bring up EOH yet say GER doesn't last, even though GER is shown to last in your very example. Or saying Giorno gets outpaced, ignoring SPEED EQUAL of all things, but ignoring Giorno is a literal non factor because GER is fast as ****, automatic, sentient, arguably not even bound to Giorno while protecting Giorno from threats he can't react to anyway (Possibly even capable of bringing Giorno back from death), your point is awful when GER's only notible feat revolves around protecting Giorno while saying it's completely automatic to the point Giorno doesn't even know what it does that well. Worst part is you actually think Giorno or GER would just give up, they'd be more likely to die then give up, especially with how brutal Giorno is willing to wait in alternate canons (Given you brought up EOH, an example would be him waiting quadrillions of years in the novel). And that's not even bringing in JoJoveller or JJaGG or JJ4, all of which are canon.
Now before you even begin to respond, it'd do you good to actually 1. Get this shit implemented on Joker's profile if it's truly legit. 2. Make a Maruki Profile. 3. Don't say blatantly untrue things like GER doesn't last while banking on material that litteraly proves your claim wrong making your arguments impossible to co-exist without being contradictory. 4. Not arguing points that rely on ignoring the very nature of the character in question (That being GER calls the shots, not Giorno, on top of GER being shown to protect against unreactable threats).
Given every argument relies on shit that isn't implemented on the profiles, as well as things that require other revisions on top of that and things that may or may not even be true, I'm wondering why people are replying to this thread still when the only counterpoint may as well not even exist at the moment.
Which has nothing to do with the above arguments in Joker having res due to type 1. Also going by the Persona wiki, could be wrong, but Maruki's powers have absolutely nothing to do with causality, hell in the trivia section (for some reason) it even points out a potential weakness, plus hitting up a friend who just platted the game didnt exactly confirm it either. Tbh I'm not seeing where Maruki's cognitive powers manipulate cause and effect.
>Royal isn't even needed, Satanael completley negates it.
Only if Satanael itself is immune to RTZ in the first place. Otherwise it can't do anything. Which pre-royal, it most certainly doesn't.
>RTZ has been canceled out by Dio in Eyes of Heaven.
GER's RTZ is outright confirmed to work on some types of acasuals in EOH, and TWOH is the exact opposite of GER, they cancel each other other out due to having opposite powers. They stalemated. Not that it matters, Giorno was riddled with PIS in Eoh, the fact he only ever actually attempted RTZ once in the story should say as much, made even worse when GER can RTZ at range or at a whim yet opted not to.
>Plus He's already far faster than Giorno, and as it's shown, Giorno's own personal stats do not change upon using GER
Uh, so? Ignoring it's speed equal, meaning you're arguing a literal moot point, Giorno is a nonfactor in this match, Giorno could be slower than a snail, it doesn't matter when GER is fast enough to deal with any incoming threats while having the ability to act separately, or did you forget GER is sentient and is automatic and gas shown on screen to protect against threats Giorno can't?
>This means that Joker outpaces AND one-shots Giorno.
If, if, he can get around GER. If GER exists giorno could literally sit on his ass and do nothing and GER would act on its own to protect him. Case and point, litteraly the only scene we see of GER in the source material where it acts on its own to protect Giorno from a threat he can't react to and perceive and even goes as far to confirm Giorno isn't controlling him, as in the Stand ITSELF confirms it, via it's own words.
>GER isn't gonna last forever. Girono would just give up if he can't hurt him
GER Literally lasts forever so I don't know what you're talking about? Hell in the source material it Literally says the power is his forever. You even brought up EOH, a game where Giorno whips out GER halfway through it despite him having long defeated Diavolo by that point, if GER was gonna run out Giorno wouldn't have used it halfway through the game in a scripted cutscene. And Giorno doesn't have a say here, only GER does, and you kidding me? Giorno wouldn't give up, giorno's whole point as a character is the resolve to continue to do something against impossible odds even if fate itself is denying you, and GER is one who goes into things for the long haul, worse case scenario neither do anything and it's an eternal stalemate.
Anyway you clearly don't know much about GER (Not exactly a Persona expert myself but at least I ain't acting like what I'm saying is absolute) and your points contradict each other. You bring up EOH yet say GER doesn't last, even though GER is shown to last in your very example. Or saying Giorno gets outpaced, ignoring SPEED EQUAL of all things, but ignoring Giorno is a literal non factor because GER is fast as ****, automatic, sentient, arguably not even bound to Giorno while protecting Giorno from threats he can't react to anyway (Possibly even capable of bringing Giorno back from death), your point is awful when GER's only notible feat revolves around protecting Giorno while saying it's completely automatic to the point Giorno doesn't even know what it does that well. Worst part is you actually think Giorno or GER would just give up, they'd be more likely to die then give up, especially with how brutal Giorno is willing to wait in alternate canons (Given you brought up EOH, an example would be him waiting quadrillions of years in the novel). And that's not even bringing in JoJoveller or JJaGG or JJ4, all of which are canon.
Now before you even begin to respond, it'd do you good to actually 1. Get this shit implemented on Joker's profile if it's truly legit. 2. Make a Maruki Profile. 3. Don't say blatantly untrue things like GER doesn't last while banking on material that litteraly proves your claim wrong making your arguments impossible to co-exist without being contradictory. 4. Not arguing points that rely on ignoring the very nature of the character in question (That being GER calls the shots, not Giorno, on top of GER being shown to protect against unreactable threats).
Given every argument relies on shit that isn't implemented on the profiles, as well as things that require other revisions on top of that and things that may or may not even be true, I'm wondering why people are replying to this thread still when the only counterpoint may as well not even exist at the moment.
- Status
Similar threads
