Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,751
- 12,081
Not particularly proud of this title, but the title I wanted to use was taken up by an unrelated thread I was working on. You hate to see it.
This thread got out of hand, didn't it? That can be blamed on one major part of the GoW magic explanation page:
But let's pretend these contradicting interpretations are both true, somehow. Even in that scenario, magic wouldn't harm the soul by its nature. In the case of magic and the soul being the same, why would this be equivalent to magic spells harming the soul with every use? It is technically "manipulating" the soul by drawing out a part of the caster's spirit and manifesting it as whatever they desire (such as, say, a fireball), but that doesn't mean that fireball would burn the target's soul. Is firing a chunk of your soul at someone going to damage their own soul? Without further context, I believe the answer is no, and unfortunately, there isn't any further context that would turn that 'no' into a 'yes'.
Magic being a manifestation of the soul also wouldn't be soul manipulation. The soul is what creates magic, so one could say that souls manipulate magic, not the other way around. Being born from something does not mean you can manipulate that thing, either; An example of this would be ki from Dragon Ball, which like the soul/magic in GoW, is a universal energy system that allows one to create a wide array of different attacks. However, ki blasts do not damage an enemy's reserves of ki just because they're manifested from the user's own ki, just as energy blasts in GoW do not damage the soul just because they're manifested from the user's soul.
Of course, comparing verses like this has its own host of issues; It is entirely possible that GoW works on different mechanics that makes its logic of "magic is born from the soul so all magic can harm the soul" more valid than it would be for other verses. The problem is that such mechanics, if they exist, are never mentioned anywhere. What I have described here today is all GoW supporters have to offer as far as magic-based soulhax is concerned. As it stands, there is no evidence that magic can innately harm the soul.
That's the bulk of the evidence, and is what ended up on the explanation page. However, there are still two statements in the original upgrade thread I need to address. The one about the oracle cursing Kratos' soul is easy; From the context, it's clearly metaphorical, referring to the burden that weighs heavily on Kratos' conscience after he murdered his family (on top of the more physical burden of being literally covered in their ashes). Even if it weren't, though, this is merely a single instance of a magic spell afflicting the soul; There is no reason to extrapolate "one oracle made a curse that affects the soul" into "every fireball, lightning bolt, and energy blast destroys the soul". It is more likely that the oracle's curse is just one of the many ways magic can be utilized; Magic can also alter fate, weave illusions, trap people in an eternal slumber, or change the flow of time, but not every magic users has those abilities because such feats are specific to their users.
One's magic staying with them when they die is mildly interesting, but also not particularly relevant. It may help prove that magic and the soul have some intrinsic connection, but what it doesn't prove is the idea that such a connection gives magic the ability to destroy the soul.
TL;DR: GoW's magic system does not innately harm the soul, nor does anyone who survives being blasted with magic resist soul manipulation by extension. I'm not sure much about any of the pages would need to change, admittedly; The explanation page doesn't outright say magic can destroy the soul, and that just seems to be something GoW supporters will assert on the forum but not on the actual pages. While there's probably gonna be some debate over whether or not being a manifestation of/the same as the soul would be soul manipulation in and of itself, I'd like to request that we not focus on that for now since this thread is already gonna be a massive shitshow. Let's keep it focused on magic's ability to destroy the soul.
This thread got out of hand, didn't it? That can be blamed on one major part of the GoW magic explanation page:
This is the justification used to claim that all instances of magic in God of War affect the soul of the target. For example, Zeus' lightning doesn't just shock and paralyze its victims, but also annihilates their very being, because all magic affects the soul. As an extension of this, damn near everyone in the verse resists soul manipulation and magic, because they aren't one-shot by these soul-obliterating spells. The reason for magic's ties to the soul, while not super apparent from the ability justification, can be broken down as follows using context from both the explanation page and the original upgrade thread.
- Magic and life force are the same, and life force and souls are the same, therefore magic and souls are equivalent.
- Evidence for magic and life force being the same:
- One's power and mind are enhanced by absorbing life energy from fallen foes.
- In the Greek era, godly power was treated as equivalent to life energy.
- Vanquishing foes with magic allows the user to harness their life energy.
- Some magic users have experimented with magic to increase their lifespan.
- Evidence for life force and souls being the same:
- Hades' soul-stealing magic also steals the target's life energy.
- The "soulsteal" trait in the Norse games refers to draining the life from the target.
- Evidence for magic and life force being the same:
- Magic is a manifestation of the soul [citation needed].
- The explanation page also says the soul is but a construct of magic [citation needed], which is the total opposite of the claim that magic is a manifestation of the soul. The page is trying to claim that magic creates the soul, and the soul creates magic, unaware(?) that these are inherently contradictory. Apparently, the answer to "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" is, in the eyes of GoW supporters, "both".
- A mortal oracle wove a curse that afflicted Kratos' body and soul.
- When one dies and their soul passes into the afterlife, their magic stays with them.
But let's pretend these contradicting interpretations are both true, somehow. Even in that scenario, magic wouldn't harm the soul by its nature. In the case of magic and the soul being the same, why would this be equivalent to magic spells harming the soul with every use? It is technically "manipulating" the soul by drawing out a part of the caster's spirit and manifesting it as whatever they desire (such as, say, a fireball), but that doesn't mean that fireball would burn the target's soul. Is firing a chunk of your soul at someone going to damage their own soul? Without further context, I believe the answer is no, and unfortunately, there isn't any further context that would turn that 'no' into a 'yes'.
Magic being a manifestation of the soul also wouldn't be soul manipulation. The soul is what creates magic, so one could say that souls manipulate magic, not the other way around. Being born from something does not mean you can manipulate that thing, either; An example of this would be ki from Dragon Ball, which like the soul/magic in GoW, is a universal energy system that allows one to create a wide array of different attacks. However, ki blasts do not damage an enemy's reserves of ki just because they're manifested from the user's own ki, just as energy blasts in GoW do not damage the soul just because they're manifested from the user's soul.
Of course, comparing verses like this has its own host of issues; It is entirely possible that GoW works on different mechanics that makes its logic of "magic is born from the soul so all magic can harm the soul" more valid than it would be for other verses. The problem is that such mechanics, if they exist, are never mentioned anywhere. What I have described here today is all GoW supporters have to offer as far as magic-based soulhax is concerned. As it stands, there is no evidence that magic can innately harm the soul.
That's the bulk of the evidence, and is what ended up on the explanation page. However, there are still two statements in the original upgrade thread I need to address. The one about the oracle cursing Kratos' soul is easy; From the context, it's clearly metaphorical, referring to the burden that weighs heavily on Kratos' conscience after he murdered his family (on top of the more physical burden of being literally covered in their ashes). Even if it weren't, though, this is merely a single instance of a magic spell afflicting the soul; There is no reason to extrapolate "one oracle made a curse that affects the soul" into "every fireball, lightning bolt, and energy blast destroys the soul". It is more likely that the oracle's curse is just one of the many ways magic can be utilized; Magic can also alter fate, weave illusions, trap people in an eternal slumber, or change the flow of time, but not every magic users has those abilities because such feats are specific to their users.
One's magic staying with them when they die is mildly interesting, but also not particularly relevant. It may help prove that magic and the soul have some intrinsic connection, but what it doesn't prove is the idea that such a connection gives magic the ability to destroy the soul.
TL;DR: GoW's magic system does not innately harm the soul, nor does anyone who survives being blasted with magic resist soul manipulation by extension. I'm not sure much about any of the pages would need to change, admittedly; The explanation page doesn't outright say magic can destroy the soul, and that just seems to be something GoW supporters will assert on the forum but not on the actual pages. While there's probably gonna be some debate over whether or not being a manifestation of/the same as the soul would be soul manipulation in and of itself, I'd like to request that we not focus on that for now since this thread is already gonna be a massive shitshow. Let's keep it focused on magic's ability to destroy the soul.
