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A possible upgrade for Bastard!!

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Introduction​

Introductions are no longer needed I think... let's start

Souls​

The topic is Bastard!! SOULS. The ''soul'' in verse is not just what we usually refer to when talking about an incorporeal aspect of existence, VS debating-wise. I'm going to bring about several arguments on this.

-First, souls are more fundamental/ontologically higher than spirits/astral body, where the lower aspects serve as a medium, "the flesh" for higher ones in lower planes of existence, and it might be noted that the ''spirit'' is already an abstraction type 1, embodying one's consciousness and emotions (C.137). Now, things would get a bit philosophic here but I'll try to make it as easy as possible. This basically means from our flesh and blood point of view, the spirit is absolutely incorporeal/abstract. However, from the spirit's perspective, itself is corporeal/material while the soul is something metaphysical/abstract/ethereal. Or to put it simply, souls treat spirits the exact same way the latter treat the physical body (C.131), it's an even higher essence than the spirit. We currently treat the ''soul'' as layered AE due to the incapability of determining its specific state of existence (which I will justify in this thread).
Also, understanding the concept of Emanation would also help pretty much, details can easily be founded here.

-Secondly, souls (essence) are the most essential component of existence, it's the core of life, which in context is existence as losing Eternal Atoms (soul is the most fundamental of which (C.137)) will lead to a being's existence to be completely wiped out from all of causality (C.106). One more statement about souls being the root of existence (C.135), as well as what is needed in order to maintain existence itself (C.92).
*Another version of translation further proves the point about being the ''core of existence''.

-Thirdly, the soul of a being is intrinsically on the same level as what defines that being's individuality (C.137). In other words, a sense of originality, the essence that makes us ''unique'' and distinct from any other being.

-Finally, the soul is called the ''Ideal Body'' (C.106), which as its name suggests, is belonged to the conceptions category of something perfect/ethereal. A concept is normally an idea, and in this case we have proved that ''Ideal Body'' (Soul) has the appropriate abstract level and properties to be a literal concept.

What's now? Well, souls are also independent of the physical body/object since they will move on after the death/destruction of the body. Not only that, they are free from the very reality in which the physical body resides (Material Plane):
-The spirit (or Astral Body) - an ontologically lesser aspect than the soul, is unbound by space-time of the 3D/Material world.
-Angels/Devils are initially composed of spirits and souls. These beings predate the creation of the (Physical) Universe which means souls (and spirits) also exist before the formation of reality.
- Interestingly, the soul of an individual resides in the deepest realm of the collective unconscious, being a part of God who directly created the whole cosmo, predating even the Astral Plane. Wait! Isn't this somehow sound familiar? Well yes, that realm is referring to a famous theory regarding concepts, Jungian Archetypes.

Counter Argument​

The only one I can think of here is: ''But residing in the collective unconscious sea is only of human's souls''

Problem is, there just isn't any difference between the souls of humanity and that of angels/devils mentioned. The whole explanations regarding Eternal Atoms and stuff clearly show that Spirits (Astral Body) and Souls (Ideal Body) represent in both humans and these creatures from the higher plane. There is just no distinction between the two.

The only difference is that Angels/Devils are Astral entities and thus capable of regenerating their Souls and Spirits (something humans cannot do), which is why it is stated the destruction of both souls and spirits is vital in their battles.

Therefore, they're by default intrinsically the same unless proven otherwise. A saying such as "Collective Unconscious is only applicable to Human Souls and not Angel/Devils' souls" is fallacious in itself since it presupposes the idea that Angel/Devils Souls are fundamentally different from Human Souls when it is not given Hagiwara's explanations.

Humans' and Angels/Demons' souls being fundamentally the same thing in fact got positive supporting statements throughout the series. Ether is the primary element that constructed all of the bodies, spirits and souls, which again didn't distinguish ''human souls'' from ''angels/devils'' even the slightest (they even shared that ''ghost-like'' part). This statement even blatantly indicated that there is no such thing as discrimination between souls in the verse.

So yeah, we can safely assume humans and angels/demons' souls share absolute same properties.

TL;DR​

-Souls in Bastard!! are more fundamental/abstract than spirits aka AE1 consciousness, and are utterly required to exist. It is the conceptual aspect/body of beings, which defines existence itself, giving literal meaning to individuals making them who they are. Being the ''archetypes'', resides in the sea of the collective unconscious based on Carl Jung's model.
-Souls are not only free of the object they govern but also preceding/independent of the reality in which they participate.

Therefore, ''souls'' would also be equivalent to Type 1 Concepts.

Changes​

Abstract Existence regarding the soul is becoming: Concept Type 1 based.

Manipulations of souls would include: Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1). Such as Anthrax sucking souls, Devils in general absorbing human's flesh and souls, punches from astral beings would as well destroy concepts...
Anything involving souls should also include CM1, such as Dispel Bounds resistance to soul manip.

Now, the regeneration of an average Eternal Atoms user will be changed from Low-Godly to Mid-Godly, as they can regenerate so long as their soul/concept isn't destroyed completely (meaning they can regen having the lower essences: consciousness, life force, emotion, body erased).

DS, Uriel, and by extension, Satan would have their regeneration level changed to High-Godly, due to being able to come back after the total erasure of their body, consciousness/emotion and soul/concept (type 1).

Conclusion​

Grateful thanks to @RM97 for suggesting to me the idea of ''independent souls'' part as well as basically building up the Counter Argument section.
 
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How come souls/spirit aren't low 1c due to viewing time and space as merely 3d? Usually spacetime is 4d, but here it's only 3d... you could make an upgrade to make Darsh have smurf immortality based on souls/spirit.
 
How come souls/spirit aren't low 1c due to viewing time and space as merely 3d? Usually spacetime is 4d, but here it's only 3d... you could make an upgrade to make Darsh have smurf immortality based on souls/spirit.
the verse just treats space and time as 3D, it's another evidence that the author's conception about higher planes isn't the same as how we treat, at least according to the tiering system.

Also, that mere humans appeared in Astral planes (Hell) without any problem is also an anti-feat against souls or spirits being higher D in nature.
 
I'm still not sure how this wiki deals with such subjects (About individual souls being equated to the conceptual existence as most people here understand). I would say that mentions such as the "Ideal Body" makes clear that is the intention (Although I would really like to know if there are raws of that page so I can check which Kanji was used, those tends to be very direct about their meaning, with Digimon at least that really helped me), so for me that is fine. Not sure how other members think about that.
 
Thanks for your replies, as for the raw pages, I tried to look for some but unfortunately couldn't find any.

A thing that makes up an individual existence, if proven to be more than conventional corporeal aspects such as (default) souls or mind is usually categorized as being concept or information (type 2).
Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; the Sea of Screams erodes one's 'shape', threatening their very being[3])
.

This thread also requires a bit outside the wiki information and your high knowledgeable opinion on these kinds of stuff is very appreciated.

I also asked Qawsedf to comment, although now the CRT has pretty much been approved given both internal and external are appropriate for the upgrade, I'll message him one more time just to make sure.
 
106 I believe, this is the page
Oh, more literal than what I expected. The term is written in kakatana as "イデアル" which is really "Ideal". For kanji there are two, one is "霊魂" (reikon) which really just means "soul", or even more directly as the "ethereal" structure that rules over the spirit, or "the spirit that controls the spirit that controls the body" or something like that. Seems like "Bastard!!" was being very literal.
The other is "超意識体" (Chō ishiki-tai). "Cho" means Super, Above, beyond. Ishiki means Consciousness. Tai means "Body, structure". So "Super Conscious Body"? Not as direct as I have hoped, but the "Ideal Body" is really there, so fine by me.
 
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Oh, more literal than what I expected. The term is written in kakatana as "イデアル" which is really "Ideal". For kanji there are two, one is "霊魂" (reikon) which really just means "soul", or even more directly as the "ethereal" structure that rules over the "spirit that controls the spirit that controls the body" or something like that. Seems like "Bastard!!" was being very literal.
The other is "超意識体" (Chō ishiki-tai). "Cho" means Super, Above, beyond. Ishiki means Consciousness. Tai means "Body, structure". So "Super Conscious Body"? Not as direct as I have hoped, but the "Ideal Body" is really there, so fine by me.
holy wow, this would definitely contribute a great part to the legitimacy of this whole thread. Thanks for your findings, really

I guess it's ok to apply the changes now, gonna wait bit more just to see if anyone else has other opinions
 
I would suggest notifying a staff member to unlock the pages which currently remain locked and close the threads which have concluded/are no longer in use.
 
I would suggest notifying a staff member to unlock the pages which currently remain locked and close the threads which have concluded/are no longer in use.
We only need to lock pages that are controversial or considerably high in tiering, Ant told me that
But yeah this thread should be closed
 
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