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A Certain Upgrade to Some Characters

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Zensum said:
Oma-Zi o022 said:
I have question in toaruverse not had 11D being?

I not seen Higher-Dimensional Existence in they profile
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True MG's should have this, not sure why they don't tbh
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I'm more curious why True MG's aren't at least at the baseline for Hyper since they treat the Hidden World like a joke and are too massive/big for their own 11D Phase verse but I'm sure there's some dimensional BS to explain that.
 
Accelerate420 said:
Malox1696 wrote:smarter ? no
having more calc power ? yes

if accel were to face some super computer that can translate his calculation powers in reality warping (like esper) and could calculate the future of the universe, then yes it would ignore accel field
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No it wouldn't. It wouldn't automatically ignore his field, but if they were that smart they could out-calculate the redirection like Mina did by abusing her Physiology. If I punch Accelerator and I'm smarter than him, does that mean because I can calc faster than him my punch will ignore his vectors?
re read again please
 
Mina most likely found the blind spots in his calculations rather than ignore his vectors. I mean you can't really ignore vectors but you can find blind spots in his calculations. Mina is a bit of a strange case in that she's also a grimoire who has some type of clairvoyence. It's actually questionable if someone else could do what Mina did.
 
Scrlk666777 said:
Mina most likely found the blind spots in his calculations rather than ignore his vectors. I mean you can't really ignore vectors but you can find blind spots in his calculations. Mina is a bit of a strange case in that she's also a grimoire who has some type of clairvoyence. It's actually questionable if someone else could do what Mina did.
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The way it was implied was her Physiology heavily had something to do with it. So imagine the redirection hitting her hand but she's cushioning it by imanipulating her hand so the skin is pulling back and what not to create a cusion affect. From doing that, some momentum is lost but the punch is still plainly registered in the field since the reflection still happens.
 
Malox1696 said:
Accelerate420 said:
Malox1696 wrote':smarter ? no'having more calc power ? yes
if accel were to face some super computer that can translate his calculation powers in reality warping (like esper) and could calculate the future of the universe, then yes it would ignore accel field
Click to expand...
No it wouldn't. It wouldn't automatically ignore his field, but if they were that smart they could out-calculate the redirection like Mina did by abusing her Physiology. If I punch Accelerator and I'm smarter than him, does that mean because I can calc faster than him my punch will ignore his vectors?
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re read again please
You first my dude. A method has to be established from that person with high calculation capacity. It's never once been stated someone with high calc potential can automatically by-pass nor an attack.
 
Accelerate420 said:
You first my dude. A method has to be established from that person with high calculation capacity. It's never once been stated someone with high calc potential can automatically by-pass nor an attack.
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that's why i said


"some super computer that can translate his calculation powers in reality warping (like esper) "
 
Malox1696 said:
Accelerate420 said:
You first my dude. A method has to be established from that person with high calculation capacity. It's never once been stated someone with high calc potential can automatically by-pass nor an attack.
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that's why i said


"some super computer that can translate his calculation powers in reality warping (like esper) "
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That wouldn't automatically bypass due to how the filter works. Unless you can word that better? Because having a power the has higher calc power than Accel's won't automatically by pass the filter.
 
Imo until we actually see an esper or someone bypass his vector shield using only calculation power this is still a very questionable method of being able to bypass his vector shield. So is vectorless stuff really but to explain that I would have to explain all about pure maths and the real concepts of vectors and vectors space and all that BS. It's all extremely long and complicated stuff.

But the thing with the higher calculation power being able to bypass his shield, while we have seen two examples of someone being able to bypass his vector sheild both times there was also magic involved. So I would actually like to see someone who bypasses Accelerator's vectors shield using pure calculations and nothing else before it should be called a thing.
 
mina did pass tho, and she clearly explained she outcalculated him, obv the chance of finding someone that can do something like that are near 0 out of universe
 
Malox1696 said:
mina did pass tho, and she clearly explained she outcalculated him, obv the chance of finding someone that can do something like that are near 0 out of universe
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She said that but you can't dismiss the other factors involved just because they weren't brought up at the time.

We know how Accel's abilities work on his understanding of something. We know at the time he still didn't understand magic, Mina is a concept that Accel at the time didn't understand.

Which is why for this to truly be tested it would need to be against someone, an esper more likely who manages to get around Accel's reflection on pure calculation ability alone with no extra stuff.
 
I don't think Qliphah can directly influence the trees, she more supplies knowledge of them to Accel so he can access Clonoth. Although it seems she is unable to be killed unless the evil tree itself is destroyed, and the evil tree can even restore the spheres over time even when they were destroyed by Aleister. So possible Mid Godly regen for Qliphah?
I don't see why she wouldn't. She's basically the Coronzon of the Clonoth and thus has full control of it.

Remember that Will of the Network was what made him reach it too. Qliphah is more tied to Qliphoth, the reason why Clonoth is known as the artificial third tree is because of the Network.
 
I know all of that. But if still doesn't change the fact that Qliphah is litterally the Coronzon of the third tree. They both very much play the same role also Qliphah is actually tied to both the Qliphah and Sephirot since it was revealved in NT22 that Qliphah was actually made of Coronzon herself, this is how she was able to allow Accel across the abyss because she was literally the loophole and she also used that loophole to also make herself the demon of the new abyss that allows entry to the third tree.

Accel is like Aleister in this scenrio where he has access and some semblence of control over the third tree,

I mean the third tree is still new so not much is known about it compared to the other two trees but it's still a metaphysical tree with an unknown ranking of things.
 
Malox1696 said:
mina did pass tho, and she clearly explained she outcalculated him, obv the chance of finding someone that can do something like that are near 0 out of universe
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I've explained the Mina thing countless of times. She outcalculated him and used the method of abusing her physiology as a Grimoire. She didn't just magically punch through because she could calculate faster.
 
Accelerate420 said:
I've explained the Mina thing countless of times. She outcalculated him and used the method of abusing her physiology as a Grimoire. She didn't just magically punch through because she could calculate faster.
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exactly, that's why i said it's very unlikely to find someone that has power that work like that out of universe
 
Malox1696 said:
Accelerate420 said:
I've explained the Mina thing countless of times. She outcalculated him and used the method of abusing her physiology as a Grimoire. She didn't just magically punch through because she could calculate faster.
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exactly, that's why i said it's very unlikely to find someone that has power that work like that out of universe
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True enough my dude. Even if someone could out-calculate him, the chances of them coming up with a process without being able to read his field or understand his ability is next to none outside the verse.
 
This is true. It is next to impossible that anyone outside of universe would be able to understand how his abilties work and read his field. But I do think it's often brushed over how complicated Accel's abilities are. I mean you have people who actually think if a physical character figures out the pull back techque they can easily replicate it.
 
I remember there was a Ryuko vs Accelerator fight I saw being done where people thought she could reproduce the pull-back method on him. Hooo boy.
 
I can imagine how that went. The other laughable one is when people think speedsters can pull of the technique because you know speed and they think the technique requires speed. I have to keep pointing out that it's precision and knowledge that is needed not speed.
 
All of that and it still ended up being a stomp in the end.

I'm not sure. There's still a debate about whether conceptual/Law manipulation should be added to Aleister and Coronzon and in my opinion Qliphah and Accel's profiles since I don't see if it's added to the former two that it shouldn't be added to the latter two.
 
Actually embedding the tree is law manip, but manipulating the trees is probably conceptual manip imo.
 
Which is why I think Accelerator and maybe Qliphah should also get Conceptual Manipulation.

Aleister can't get Law Manip since he never embedded any tree into the confines of the universe but he should get Conceptual Manipulation.
 
I mean. Vectors are already a concept so it's like, he kinda already /has/ it but I think he definitely should get it with the Tree since he 'controls' it. Aleister should have it too. I assume this basically allows them to interact with conceptual entities/things.
 
If somebody provides an easy to understand summary, I might be able to help.
 
Thank you very much.

So the basically, it seems the only thing we're adding from this entire thread is Conceptual Manipulation on Coronzon, Aleister Crowley, and Accelerator. Reasons for this being Aleister affected and destroyed conceptual spheres on the Qliphoth, which is a metaphysical conceptual law. Accelerator has full control over his own Conceptual Tree and thus has a form of Conceptual Manipulation through that, such as affecting say, non-corpereal concepts so to speak. Coronzon should have it for the same reason Accelerator does, as she's able to send attacks through it and move up and down the Sephirot freely. So I'd either go with Limited Conceptual Manipulation for the three of them, or just Conceptual Manipulation.

Is there anything else I'm forgetting from this thread?
 
Okay. That seems to make sense to me, but it is best to get agreement from DontTalkDT and LazyHunter.
 
@Accelerate420

I think there was discussion of upgrading IB and WR to High 1-C. However I'm not sure on this myself since IB got completely destroyed by Coronzon's attack and the only reason it didn't the second time was because Coronzon herself was weakend due to Accelerator forcing her out of her physical body.

I think the only argument for High 1-C is the fact that he can negate Curtana Original's. All-Dimension Severing spell.

Is that High 1-C then? There is nothing on Elizard's or Carissa's profile of it being High 1-C.
 
well gungunir already is 1c and he negated it

and WR works on anything as along as it fits the value


they both were 2 b cause MG were still 2b before and never got updated
 
There's still inconsistencies and if I remember Gungnir still caused damage to Touma just not to the extent that Coronzon's flaming sword did.

It's the inconsistencies more than anything because it makes no sense upgrading IB to High 1-C based on a High 1-C attack when IB also got destroyed by a High 1-C attack. This is where inconsistencies come into play.
 
WR has never seemed to have a limit since it crushed a Phase creation magic and Kamisato has stated if the conditions are right, it can erase black holes. So assuming it can tag it I think High 1-C fits the bill. The Damage to Touma was more so from the spear itself colliding with his hand than it was the magic iirc. Magick Flaming Sword only by-passed due to its properties and power, but mostly its properties as it was 'outisde the tool box', hency why when Coronzon was outside her body it became vulnerable to memory. I would say WR should be High 1-C for sure. IB, we can have a bit more discussion on that but I'm all for upgrading it to 1-C/High 1-C.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That seems to make sense to me, but it is best to get agreement from DontTalkDT and LazyHunter.
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What did they respond about your suggestion?
 
Antvasima said:
Antvasima said:
Okay. That seems to make sense to me, but it is best to get agreement from DontTalkDT and LazyHunter.
Click to expand...
What did they respond about your suggestion?
Click to expand...
LazyHunter seems to disagree with everything but he hasn't came back for the current Topic about IB/WR negation and the Conceptual manipulation.
 
I think Lazyhunter agreed with or rather was fine with us upgrading WR and IB but they did point out we would have to ignore inconsistencies where IB was concerned. I don't think there has been any objections where WR is concerned though, just where IB is concerned and even then they aren't really rejections

So really it's only the conceptual Manipulation.
 
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