A bunch of questions from a new guy

[Carfusso]

Ok so...hi, I'm (sort of) new here and I have questions on some things, a couple are VERY specific while others are more broad so I hope at least some of you will answer
(expecially after going through the comically overcomplicated process of actually registering 2 accounts while having to confirm BOTH through different means...seriously wtf...MY DIGITAL ID CARD gave me less trouble...and I'm italian...beurocracy here is beyond stupid)
Ok actually it wasn't THAT bad, it didn't force me to randomly use Discord like it says in the guide so I apologize.

Now...salt aside...
For a bit of context: even though I never created an account before, I HAVE been reading profiles/threads on the wiki (99% of the time about characters/verses I know and like) for years as a sort of "spectator" when I wanted to kill some time (what can I say, I enjoy spectating the madness that are most arguments, also I do like "vs stuff" anyway) so I'm decently familiar with most of the terminology and standards of the wiki...though some things I do not get....which is why this post was born.
Even after creating this account I'm probably going to largely keep up with my usual "spectator mode" after this thread concludes (mainly due to the university being...a non trivial time investiment) though I might pop into (or even create) a couple threads from time to time.
Also keep in mind that a few of these questions only come from things I saw a couple users write in a thread or 2 so I'm not even 100% sure if that's how they actually work.
Maybe 1 or 2 of these could be answered by digging deep into specific pages, if that's the case feel free to just point me to those

SO here we go then:

1)Overlord:
Why would Ainz not be "eligible" for his tier's "strongest of each tier" discussion/matches when the ONLY thing on his profile that doesn't scale is his physical strength...which is simply not relevant since he wouldn't use it...like...ever (excluding <Perfect Warrior>, which is a moot point for obvious reasons) in a situation when he isn't 100% sure that his opponent is not a threat (so he needs information which...by this wiki's standards...he doesn't have).
I mean the guy...skeleton...thing...can teleport with a thought, summon hordes of monsters (many weaker ones and a few comparable ones as shown in the bonus volume and in volume 14), blast people with huge AoEs of comparable AP and more, so I don't see a reason why he shouldn't qualify when he can clearly hold his own WITHOUT HAX against fighters that are (in canon) comparable to his strongest magic (though it's not what he's specialized in...that's the way all of his serious fights work since anyone comparable to him in his verse and back in Yggdrasil is resistent/immune to his hax)
To clarify...I'm not saying he should be in the top 5 of his tier, I honestly have no idea if he should or not... all I'm saying is that I can't see why he can't be considered a "true" Low 7-C character.

2)One Piece:
Wasn't Haki accepted to resist all DF offensive abilities (instead of just Law's fruit like it says rn on the haki page)? Isn't it a bit weird that right now it works like "ok so Haki allows you to touch the true body of logia users...but also protects you from this 1 and very specific fruit's effect and nothing else"?

3)Stat equal?:
Why are stat equalized matches not added? You already add speed equal matches, you just need to say that the specific win/loss happened when stats were equalized.
After all, the tiering is useful...but it isn't the end-all be-all, authors are VERY prone to inconsistencies in their drawings or just their portrayal of a particular character's stats and I've seen (and you here reading HAVE seen that as well, likely WAY more than me) MANY verses jump up and down MANY tiers MANY times WITHOUT new feats because, ultimately, what you are calculating here is subjective, every single calc, statement and scaling that doesn't belong to the "The real world" page can get different results depending on the method used, the numerous assumptions made, what you consider a "real" feat and what you consider an outlier.
Now I'm not saying calcs and tiers are useless...far from it...they do provide the most consistent/precise idea for who is accepted by the wiki to be stronger/faster/tougher than who this week and as such they often give "winconditions" that allow for a winner to be picked. However, due to their nature of NEVER being "perfect", or even "stable" sometimes, I'd say allowing stat equalized matches to also be added doesn't defeat the wiki's purpose, nor does it invalidate the concept of tiering, all it would do is expand on the possibility for more interesting fights, while giving these fights the legitimacy of: "hey, if those 2 were to end up in the same tier and could fight eachother this would be the winner" added officially on the profile, which is no different than what constantly happens in this wiki: "hey, if those 2 were to end up in the same universe and could fight eachother this would be the winner". On top of that, stat equalized matches would be nearly permanent since they wouldn't care about tier shifts
Now obviously it would require very well defined rules and standards but if speed equal can work, stat equal can 100% also work.

4)Persona...mostly 5:
As a disclaimer I only know what happens in Persona 5 so apologies if what I'm saying sounds stupid but...why is the creation of a palace (and the "universes" in there...which...I fail to see how every palace can even qualify as such) not counted as...well...creation feats (which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't considered an AP feat here but rather creation "hax"...to which I agree with btw). Idk, I guess I just find it a bit wierd to see a random creepy volleyball coach with obviously no powers in the "real world" somehow being able to destroy the universe. Also I just thought about this...how do their matches work? Do they find their opponent in some "make believe brain world" or do you assume they can somehow freely use their powers in the "real world"?

5)Pokemon:
Why do pokemon have access to all their abilities and moves when this goes against all canon material? (at least the abilities part, I can accept the moves thing to an extent)

6)Naruto:
Blatantly...wtf is a paralisys jutsu and when has it EVER been used in canon? I have read the entire manga multiple times and I am pretty sure it wasn't in there. The only mention I could find is the random image link on the various profiles here referencing...something I guess...still...no one ever used it in canon to my knowledge meaning it's at least out of character for...the entire roster so...what's up with that? Also, a funny thing I found is that at least 1 key in Naruto's profile (early part 2 iirc) includes it...TWICE

7)Still Naruto:
Now this may paint me as a Naruto hater (which I am not, I love part 1 and "up to Pain/early war part 2"...later stuff is unga-bunga random nonsense powers/powerups but still enjoyable) but I feel like I have to ask...EVERY genjutsu is explained in canon to work via messing with your chakra flow...which is an actual thing phisically existing in the bodies of Naruto characters, with actual organs/bodyparts regulating and controlling it to boot...so...why would it ever affect someone from a verse that doesn't have a somewhat similar phisical thing powering their supernatural abilities? Wasn't the standard for verse equalization something like "they have to be similar to a decent extent in order to be equalized"?

8)The real world:
Now this I just find funny but...Why are there opponents of "The real world" verse? It's a half serious question...I just find it hilarious.

9)Re-matches:
Can you re-make matches (same keys/tiers and all) that are already on a character win/loss record even if not much changed? You see I usually agree with the outcome of most fights I see listed on the profiles and those that I don't, I can either see the opposition's reasons or just assume there's some weird BS ruling/interpretation of the powers that I'm not aware of...However there is 1 match in particular (at least...that I can think of right now) that I 100% disagree with so I'm curious if there's anything I can do to at least argue about it...if I end up being convinced that ithe outcome was correct then that means there was no problem to begin with so all is well regardeless.


10)League of Legends:
If you don't use in-game logic/mechanics for LoL profiles why do they get specific tiers, powers and abilities that only appear in the game? (for example many champs that have never met Garen in lore STILL scale as "can fight Garen and similarly powerful champions")
Is it because the profiles are still (sorry to say this) quite the clusterfuck of old and new lore and still need to be updated?
(I might end up regretting this as it may result in quite the heavy nerf on some of my fav. champions like Camille, Fiora, Tham Kench, Jax and others...not that it matters though since no one makes matches with them)

11)Layers vs higher resistence/potency:
What's the difference between layers of resistance/potency and just higher resistance/potency? (to hax since I believe that's the only thing this applies to)
From what I could see in some vs threads you guys define "layers" of both potency and resistance by saying stuff like "ok so mindhax A worked on character X who resisted mindhax B that bypassed charcter Y's resistance to a third mindhax that didn't work on Y but did on a third person with no known resistance so mindhax A has 3 layers while B only has 2" (may be 2 layers and 1 but I hope you see my point regardeless) but you also somehow define potency. Isn't this the same as saying A has higher potency than B? Is potency only linked to how many people it can affect within that "layer"?


There should be more but I either can't think of them right now or are simply way too specific to be included and I don't want to make this even longer than it already is so worst case I'll do a part 2.

Thank you all for reading and (hopefully) responding

 

[Thelastmlg]

Gonna answer those i can:

3. What's your point there, what does the subjectivity of stats and stuff have anything to do with equalizing tiers between opponents???

Anyway, we don't because it basically throws 90% of the aspects of versus battles to the trash and turns it into a P&A battle, which is completely unfair for opponents with less hax but higher stats, imagine this.

MFTL+ building level vs supersonic wall level with a sword that induces death.

Unequal speed, first character blitzes and one shoots, unfair.

If you equalize speed, both can one shoot each other, fair.

If you equalize stats, only the second character can one shoot now, unfair, unless skill isn't equalized AND the first one actually outskills.

Obviously this is just a example, but the point is, you should aim for fights that don't need equalization and if they do, aren't hindered by equalizing one stat that is honestly hax by itself, but equalizing all stats destroys the concept of indexing, which is the wiki's primary fuction basically


4. I don't know persona much but i'm pretty sure the metaverse is an actual reality and stuff, so the feats done there are actually translatable to real tiers but only if you use the versions inside this place.

As for scaling and stuff, i think they got a "Universal Energy System", this case cognition, or maybe another thing, not sure on that one to be honest.

5. Okay so, basically the profiles that don't deal with more unique versions of pokemon, like ash's pikachu or eventually our lord and savior TR meowth, are "species/race" profiles, as in, they are pseudo-composite profiles for the pokemon there, is not a single mon, is what they can all do togheter.

Composite profiles are banned from the wiki, however those are a exception because they aren't composite versions of a character, but rather composite of species.

8. Villains in disguise, obviously.

9. Don't think you can tbh, however i recall matchs being discussed after their conclusion and flaws being pointed and stuff, so i think the best way is to discuss with other members of the match in appropiate threads to first confirm your observation, if it is as influential as you believe and then maybe you can do another match and request the previous one to be removed on the thread for it.

11. Tbh that confuses me, i think those are arbitrary terms? I have seen layer and potency used as the same thing tbh, i think nowdays both are used for how hard it can bypass resistances, and stuff like "how good you can warp reality" or "how many minds you can control" are applications and range respectively

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

6)Naruto:
Blatantly...wtf is a paralisys jutsu and when has it EVER been used in canon? I have read the entire manga multiple times and I am pretty sure it wasn't in there. The only mention I could find is the random image link on the various profiles here referencing...something I guess...still...no one ever used it in canon to my knowledge meaning it's at least out of character for...the entire roster so...what's up with that?

Here's an example of the Jutsu in action. There's more examples, but honestly, I didn't feel like looking for the chapter numbers lol.
As for why every profile has it, the scan in the justification pretty much tells you why; it's essentially a Jutsu that every Shinobi canonically knows how to perform. Kinda like the Clone Jutsu, and a few others. They may not always show it, but it's essentially a prerequisite for becoming a Shinobi.

Also, a funny thing I found is that at least 1 key in Naruto's profile (early part 2 iirc) includes it...TWICE

Yeah, that's just a mistake on the profile lol.

7)Still Naruto:
Now this may paint me as a Naruto hater (which I am not, I love part 1 and "up to Pain/early war part 2"...later stuff is unga-bunga random nonsense powers/powerups but still enjoyable) but I feel like I have to ask...EVERY genjutsu is explained in canon to work via messing with your chakra flow...which is an actual thing phisically existing in the bodies of Naruto characters, with actual organs/bodyparts regulating and controlling it to boot...so...why would it ever affect someone from a verse that doesn't have a somewhat similar phisical thing powering their supernatural abilities? Wasn't the standard for verse equalization something like "they have to be similar to a decent extent in order to be equalized"?

Pretty much just read this thread. It should explain the idea to you.

 

[Carfusso]

Gonna answer those i can:

As you can probably guess I am still learing how to properly do stuff so for now I'll just quote the 2 of you like this to save space
ANYWAY
ok so let's go point by point (ty to both of you)

3)Well first of all your example was a stomp matchup which would obviously not be accepted. Now your point about fairness could VERY easily be used against speed equalized matches and still I'm saying stat equal matches would require standards and rules to prevent as much "unfairness" as possible, after all I do believe the payoff would be worth it since there are SO many potentially interesting and thematic fights that just get lolnoped by the tiering (a tiering that is VERY prone to fluctuation AND interpretation). Once again, by simply saying "stats were equalized" on the profiles once the match is done you remove any of the "throws 90% of the aspect of versus battles to the trash" since 1:you'd still make "normal" fights as well and 2:some of the more succesful and fun (to read for me, and apparently to debate for those involved...by their own admission) threads I've seen were, indeed, stat equalized threads and isn't that ultimately kind of the point of the site and vsdebating in general?
I guess what I'm saying is that the tiering IS important and very much worth keeping and "perfecting" but, due to its very nature it's not worth having it "gatekeep" SO MANY potential great fights

4)the metaverse as a whole probably is an actual reality so I suppose they'd fight there but I'm more curious about the whole "created a palace therefore universal" stuff going on there (expecially since, from what I undestand, creation feats are...well...creation feats...not AP)

5)Ok I see, I guess there's not many better ways to go about it

6)Well apparently that flew over my head, ty

7)I see, got it

8)That...does make sense lol

9)Ok so what would the "appropriate thread" be?

11)Well the thing is I've seen people argue in vs threads (the latest one being the most recent Luffy vs Madara iIrc) that those are indeed treated as different things here and that "having higher resistance does not grant you more layers" or something along those lines (ngl, I'm ALSO confused by this)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ok so...hi, I'm (sort of) new here and I have questions on some things, a couple are VERY specific while others are more broad so I hope at least some of you will answer
(expecially after going through the comically overcomplicated process of actually registering 2 accounts while having to confirm BOTH through different means...seriously wtf...MY DIGITAL ID CARD gave me less trouble...and I'm italian...beurocracy here is beyond stupid)
Ok actually it wasn't THAT bad, it didn't force me to randomly use Discord like it says in the guide so I apologize.

Now...salt aside...
For a bit of context: even though I never created an account before, I HAVE been reading profiles/threads on the wiki (99% of the time about characters/verses I know and like) for years as a sort of "spectator" when I wanted to kill some time (what can I say, I enjoy spectating the madness that are most arguments, also I do like "vs stuff" anyway) so I'm decently familiar with most of the terminology and standards of the wiki...though some things I do not get....which is why this post was born.
Even after creating this account I'm probably going to largely keep up with my usual "spectator mode" after this thread concludes (mainly due to the university being...a non trivial time investiment) though I might pop into (or even create) a couple threads from time to time.
Also keep in mind that a few of these questions only come from things I saw a couple users write in a thread or 2 so I'm not even 100% sure if that's how they actually work.
Maybe 1 or 2 of these could be answered by digging deep into specific pages, if that's the case feel free to just point me to those

SO here we go then:

1)Overlord:
Why would Ainz not be "eligible" for his tier's "strongest of each tier" discussion/matches when the ONLY thing on his profile that doesn't scale is his physical strength...which is simply not relevant since he wouldn't use it...like...ever (excluding <Perfect Warrior>, which is a moot point for obvious reasons) in a situation when he isn't 100% sure that his opponent is not a threat (so he needs information which...by this wiki's standards...he doesn't have).
I mean the guy...skeleton...thing...can teleport with a thought, summon hordes of monsters (many weaker ones and a few comparable ones as shown in the bonus volume and in volume 14), blast people with huge AoEs of comparable AP and more, so I don't see a reason why he shouldn't qualify when he can clearly hold his own WITHOUT HAX against fighters that are (in canon) comparable to his strongest magic (though it's not what he's specialized in...that's the way all of his serious fights work since anyone comparable to him in his verse and back in Yggdrasil is resistent/immune to his hax)
To clarify...I'm not saying he should be in the top 5 of his tier, I honestly have no idea if he should or not... all I'm saying is that I can't see why he can't be considered a "true" Low 7-C character.

2)One Piece:
Wasn't Haki accepted to resist all DF offensive abilities (instead of just Law's fruit like it says rn on the haki page)? Isn't it a bit weird that right now it works like "ok so Haki allows you to touch the true body of logia users...but also protects you from this 1 and very specific fruit's effect and nothing else"?

There isn't one piece of evidence pointing towards Haki being a general protection to all DF Hax, so we limit to the ones that are confirmed.

5)Pokemon:
Why do pokemon have access to all their abilities and moves when this goes against all canon material? (at least the abilities part, I can accept the moves thing to an extent)

Because it's impossible to give a Pokemon a set moveset, nor is it possible to gauge how many attacks one can have when this very concept vary from media to media. So, the profiles are the theorical best version of the Pokemon possible, with access to all Level Up Moves in all generations, best IVs and EVs, and taking from all canon media. (Anime, Manga and Games).

 

[Thelastmlg]

3)Well first of all your example was a stomp matchup which would obviously not be accepted. Now your point about fairness could VERY easily be used against speed equalized matches and still I'm saying stat equal matches would require standards and rules to prevent as much "unfairness" as possible, after all I do believe the payoff would be worth it since there are SO many potentially interesting and thematic fights that just get lolnoped by the tiering (a tiering that is VERY prone to fluctuation AND interpretation). Once again, by simply saying "stats were equalized" on the profiles once the match is done you remove any of the "throws 90% of the aspect of versus battles to the trash" since 1:you'd still make "normal" fights as well and 2:some of the more succesful and fun (to read for me, and apparently to debate for those involved...by their own admission) threads I've seen were, indeed, stat equalized threads and isn't that ultimately kind of the point of the site and vsdebating in general?
I guess what I'm saying is that the tiering IS important and very much worth keeping and "perfecting" but, due to its very nature it's not worth having it "gatekeep" SO MANY potential great fights

4)the metaverse as a whole probably is an actual reality so I suppose they'd fight there but I'm more curious about the whole "created a palace therefore universal" stuff going on there (expecially since, from what I undestand, creation feats are...well...creation feats...not AP)

9)Ok so what would the "appropriate thread" be?

11)Well the thing is I've seen people argue in vs threads (the latest one being the most recent Luffy vs Madara iIrc) that those are indeed treated as different things here and that "having higher resistance does not grant you more layers" or something along those lines (ngl, I'm ALSO confused by this)

3. It was a stomp normally, equalizing speed made it stop being a stomp.

How could they? Speed is only a single stat, if a character relies completely on speed to fight than what's the point of using them? They can have AP, Hax, skill, etc, but if you equalize stats, most of those are meaningless, if you equalize speed and it is still a stomp, at that point the match up us not worth it.

Versus threads are a secondary thing here, first is indexing, and we are not gonna index that a character lost a match against another that he should've stomped because we made 90% of their advantages irrelevant, that's the issue, indexing.

Why does the fight being "normal" and "having fun" relate at all to indexing them? Like, will both of those not happen if the fight is not added to the profiles? No, you are allowed to make and debate them, just not add them.

As the versus thread rules page says, they turn the entire tiering system unnecessary, so it could also be a "wiki's personal thing", but still.

Oh, and not needing hax to beat higher tier opponents would basically spam every page with random characters beating them because stats equal.

4. Creation feats can be AP under circumstances, persona might have one of them, such as the same energy used to create it being used in attacks or stuff.

9. To request match removals, is here:

Versus Thread Removal Requests (New forum)

This thread is created for the purpose of removing outdated or stomp versus threads from profiles that are administrator-protected. Here are the regulations that need to be followed: Kindly post links to the threads, along with the characters involved in the thread. Provide reasons as to why...

vsbattles.com

11. Eeeeh, not sure tbh, could just be members disagreeing with each others terms, rather than actual rules and stuff

 

[Carfusso]

T

3.

Is there a way to directly reply to someone without also quoting them? this may get annoying otherwise
Anyway
GodlyCharmander
2)There isn't one piece of evidence pointing towards Haki being a general protection to all DF Hax, so we limit to the ones that are confirmed.

Well I agree (personally I think it should have the resistance given how the OP world works but, as you said, no concrete proof...) but my point was that I remember a thread about this where the resistance WAS accepted (at this point I guess it was either not accepted or just "limited" to what you said)

5)Because it's impossible to give a Pokemon a set moveset, nor is it possible to gauge how many attacks one can have when this very concept vary from media to media. So, the profiles are the theorical best version of the Pokemon possible, with access to all Level Up Moves in all generations, best IVs and EVs, and taking from all canon media. (Anime, Manga and Games).

The moves thing I am fine with, the abilities thing I still disagree with but I at least understand the reason.

Thelastmlg

3) It was a stomp normally, equalizing speed made it stop being a stomp.

And decently made rules would never allow a stomp like that to be made so that's irrelevant.

How could they? Speed is only a single stat, if a character relies completely on speed to fight than what's the point of using them? They can have AP, Hax, skill, etc, but if you equalize stats, most of those are meaningless, if you equalize speed and it is still a stomp, at that point the match up us not worth it.

Same for stat equal, if you equal them and the fight is a stomp (in either direction) then the fight is not worth it, same as with ANY OTHER THREAD, nothing inherently bad related to stats being equalized.

Versus threads are a secondary thing here, first is indexing, and we are not gonna index that a character lost a match against another that he should've stomped because we made 90% of their advantages irrelevant, that's the issue, indexing.
Why does the fight being "normal" and "having fun" relate at all to indexing them? Like, will both of those not happen if the fight is not added to the profiles? No, you are allowed to make and debate them, just not add them.

This feels kind of weird considering the indexing comes from a versus thread behind it. Anyway what I'm saying is that your "90% advantages" are important but not enough to gatekeep a potentially interesting fight.

As the versus thread rules page says, they turn the entire tiering system unnecessary, so it could also be a "wiki's personal thing", but still.
And that's why question 3 was "born"...because I read that page and...I don't agree with this idea, they 100% should be regulated properly (hell...you could even make an AP cap on how much you're allowed to equalize if it REALLY bothers you that Goku may lose to a space marine in equal stats)

Oh, and not needing hax to beat higher tier opponents would basically spam every page with random characters beating them because stats equal.

Now this is a reply I actually like as I can agree with it, this is legit the only potential problem I see...are you sure we can't count on a user's common sense?

4) I didn't know that...well fine then

9) ty, I might get to discussing in a few days (provided the exams go my way)

11)ok np, maybe someone else will answer as it seems decently important to be able to tell whether or not a carachter can resist a hax ability

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

1)Overlord:

His non-Perfect Warrior self lacks physical attack feats against non-fodders. Though I guess an argument from stats can be made.

3)Stat equal?:

Justification is mentioned in the Versus Thread Rules page:

Match-ups with equalized statistics (with the exception of speed) are not allowed, as they turn the entire tiering system unnecessary.

4)Persona...mostly 5:

Justification for Palaces being universe creation here.

Sometimes creation feats aplies to AP, but the Persona characters are scaled to the Tier 2 and Tier 1 beings they fight/summon.

Megami Tensei Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

Demon Physiology (Shin Megami Tensei)

vsbattles.fandom.com

6)Naruto:

In Chapter 57.

The databook mentions that genin classes learn it.

7)Still Naruto:

Not an issue due to verse equalization.
Technically cats have Chakra in Narutoverse and they can be Genjutsu'd, but in verse equalization normal Chakra-less pleb cats.

8)The real world:

Both optimistic and pessimistic perspectives are useful in evaluating the effectiveness of real world weapons.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

4)Persona...mostly 5:

I guess I'll go ahead and answer this.

the "universes" in there...which...I fail to see how every palace can even qualify as such)

Palaces are a reflection of the ruler's perception of reality itself - in other words, a mirror of the universe from the perspective of a given individual. As such, the palaces themselves are considered to be 4D space-time continuums.

why is the creation of a palace not counted as...well...creation feats (which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't considered an AP feat here but rather creation "hax"...to which I agree with btw).

A character's AP can scale to the size of their creation under certain circumstances, which the palace rulers easily fall under. Palaces are created and sustained by their rulers - and when a ruler is defeated, the palace begins to deteriorate and is deleted from the Metaverse Navigator.

Idk, I guess I just find it a bit wierd to see a random creepy volleyball coach with obviously no powers in the "real world" somehow being able to destroy the universe.

The real world versions of the Palace Rulers obviously do not inherit the powers and abilities of their Metaverse counterparts. Fiction also violates the law of conservation of energy quite frequently, and thus we tend to ignore the logical inconsistencies that arise from accounting for such a principle when scaling.

I just thought about this...how do their matches work? Do they find their opponent in some "make believe brain world" or do you assume they can somehow freely use their powers in the "real world"?

We don't need to assume they can use their powers in the real world, given that Mitsuru explicitly states that it is possible to summon Personas in the "real world", given they're put into a dangerous situation (such a match-up with an unknown foe).

 

[Carfusso]

His non-Perfect Warrior self lacks physical attack feats against non-fodders. Though I guess an argument from stats can be made.

Well that's what I'm saying: his physical attacks are irrelevant since his magic, summons (not all of them but still...) AND durability scale to some value in low 7-C

Justification is mentioned in the Versus Thread Rules page:

Match-ups with equalized statistics (with the exception of speed) are not allowed, as they turn the entire tiering system unnecessary.

yea and I don't see a good reason for it so this is where the question comes from

Justification for Palaces being universe creation here.

Sometimes creation feats aplies to AP, but the Persona characters are scaled to the Tier 2 and Tier 1 beings they fight/summon.

Megami Tensei Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

Demon Physiology (Shin Megami Tensei)

vsbattles.fandom.com

I see, I guess that's fine, ty

In Chapter 57.

The databook mentions that genin classes learn it.

Not an issue due to verse equalization.
Technically cats have Chakra in Narutoverse and they can be Genjutsu'd, but in verse equalization normal Chakra-less pleb cats.

yea apparently I had missed the paralysis thing, the Genjutsu part is a bit more subtle but still fine

Both optimistic and pessimistic perspectives are useful in evaluating the effectiveness of real world weapons.

Then I guess I'm misinterpreting the "supporters/opponents" dynamic, aren't opponents just people who dislike a particular series?

I guess I'll go ahead and answer this.


Palaces are a reflection of the ruler's perception of reality itself - in other words, a mirror of the universe from the perspective of a given individual. As such, the palaces themselves are considered to be 4D space-time continuums.

Seems pretty barebones but I guess it's enough

A character's AP can scale to the size of their creation under certain circumstances, which the palace rulers easily fall under. Palaces are created and sustained by their rulers - and when a ruler is defeated, the palace begins to deteriorate and is deleted from the Metaverse Navigator.

Ok ty, I finally have some amount of context for when creation is considered AP or hax in this site

The real world versions of the Palace Rulers obviously do not inherit the powers and abilities of their Metaverse counterparts. Fiction also violates the law of conservation of energy quite frequently, and thus we tend to ignore the logical inconsistencies that arise from accounting for such a principle when scaling.

Makes sense

We don't need to assume they can use their powers in the real world, given that Mitsuru explicitly states that it is possible to summon Personas in the "real world", given they're put into a dangerous situation (such a match-up with an unknown foe).

oh...well ok then, as I said my persona knowledge is VERY limited (to a playthough of Persona 5) , ty

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Seems pretty barebones but I guess it's enough

It's a relatively simple explanation anyways, so there's not much evidence that would need to be required. The Imgur album I linked is self-explanatory, really. Glad I could help, though. Cheers!