9-B+ Tournament Semifinals match 1 (Classic Fulgore vs Right Hand Man) (0/7/2)

[Coolboy6]

Both 9-B, mark II Fulgore is being used, speed is equalized, battle takes place at the DB World Tournament Arena.
(@SamanPatou) Fulgore:

(@Psychomaster35) Right Hand Man: 7

incon: 2

Fulgore is .002 tons

RHM is .0049 tons

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

RHM got a pretty significant AP advantage (especially since the 0.049 ton feat was done by Henry, who is <<< RHM, with some of his moves being able to oneshot Henry), is very skilled with his gun, and can use his bottles time to slow Fulgore in time and eventually freeze him

 

[SamanPatou]

How skilled is RHM with his gun? How many bullets does it have?
Also, does RHM's shield work only on magical attacks? Because from what I've read in other threads, people were talking as if it could reflect anything (although I might be wrong).

 

[Psychomaster35]

Yeah, and considering the range advantage at the start, it will be hard for Fulgore to try t I get up close to him.

Voting Right Hand Man

 

[SamanPatou]

I mean, Fulgore has experience dealing with bullets and good mobility, can teleport, shoot his own projectiles, reflect the bullets and withstand bullet wounds better than a normal human due its physiology.
The distance also isn't that high, and shooting from tens of meters may prove difficult for RHM. How skilled is he at shooting far targets? How good is his sight? And he could still run out of ammunitions, couldn't he?

I don't think having a gun alone gives victory to RHM.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean, Fulgore has experience dealing with bullets and good mobility, can teleport, shoot his own projectiles, reflect the bullets and withstand bullet wounds better than a normal human due its physiology.
The distance also isn't that high, and shooting from tens of meters may prove difficult for RHM. How skilled is he at shooting far targets? How good is his sight? And he could still run out of ammunitions, couldn't he?

I don't think having a gun alone gives victory to RHM.

RHM doesn't need his gun to win. Bottled time, shock waves and AP well over twice of Fulgore's (and he can even one shot people that did AP more than twice as strong as him) would be more than enough

 

[Psychomaster35]

If we are only going by reference alone, we are not sure if Reflect in Henry Stickmin is basically the same as its Final Fantasy counterpart which reflects just magic attacks, so it may be able to reflect other moves.

As for his gun wielding, he is considered one of the elite Toppats (who have also beaten Henry with guns, such as Mr. Macbeth) to the point of being the one protecting the leader and having the 2nd highest power due to taking the place of him after he got arrested, so he should be competent in the use of them. Also, his guns contain just as much as typical pistols and chainguns.

 

[SamanPatou]

RHM doesn't need his gun to win. Bottled time, shock waves and AP well over twice of Fulgore's (and he can even one shot people that did AP more than twice as strong as him) would be more than enough

Bottled isn't his first move, right?
It would surely be a strong weapon, but going off past threads, it's something he starts to use if he realizes the opponent is very strong.
The shockwaves don't seem anything special. We don't have visual references, and nothing says they can't be blocked, reflect or just dodged with movements or teleportation.

If we are only going by reference alone, we are not sure if Reflect in Henry Stickmin is basically the same as its Final Fantasy counterpart which reflects just magic attacks, so it may be able to reflect other moves.

Then RHM's profile should be edited, and it may result in a tennis-like trade between Fulgore and RHM, as both have reflective attacks.

As for his gun wielding, he is considered one of the elite Toppats (who have also beaten Henry with guns, such as Mr. Macbeth) to the point of being the one protecting the leader and having the 2nd highest power due to taking the place of him after he got arrested, so he should be competent in the use of them. Also, his guns contain just as much as typical pistols and chainguns.

Does he alternate between pistol and chaingun?
The pistol shouldn't be anything special, for how good the description is, it doesn't mean he can snipe Fulgore from tens of meters away, especially because of the previously mentioned options at its disposal, to which Invisibility should be added, as I had forgot to mention it before.

The machine gun and chain gun would be the worst weapons to deal with, but it shouldn't be impossible for Fulgore to dodge, teleport, reply with lasers and projectiles, withstand hits, reflect and such.
Once he gets close enough, it could also teleport next or behind RHM, or transform and start shooting back with its own double machine gun, or drop a laser from space right over RHM's head.

RHM's strongest weapon is indeed bottled time, which would give him victory from the start, but imho, he either uses it, or loses in the long run.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Yeah, he pretty much alters between weapons where he does a different move every time Henry attacks him. Also, given how he easily shrugs off attacks from Henry multiple times, tanking Fulgore's hits should not be too much of a problem unless it would be his own attacks being reflected towards him which would increase the likelihood of him using Bottled Time the longer this goes.

 

[SamanPatou]

How does Henry attack?

Because if we assume Fulgore's projectiles are just "generic energy" and thus deal only blunt force or similar, then ok RHM might shrug them off, but things like Fulgore's bullets, blades and electricity would deal realistic damage, as the AP gap isn't so high to prevent that.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

How does Henry attack?

Depends on what he has on hand, but against the RHM, he either used bombs or missiles to kill him the first time.

Because if we assume Fulgore's projectiles are just "generic energy" and thus deal only blunt force or similar, then ok RHM might shrug them off, but things like Fulgore's bullets, blades and electricity would deal realistic damage, as the AP gap isn't so high to prevent that.

They'd still not do much, at least not enough to stop him from using his bottled time against Fulgore

 

[SamanPatou]

They'd still not do much, at least not enough to stop him from using his bottled time against Fulgore

Well no, RHM is 100% going to get badly hurt and/or killed from being stabbed, beheaded or shot by bullets.
And if RHM doesn't use bottled time from the start, it's likely for Fulgore to put pressure on him, get close and get the better of him.

And still, if RHM is truly Time stop GG I wonder why he was allowed to enter this tournament, since the point was to have no op hax, and many other characters here wouldn't have had true options against time slow and stop with apparently no weakness or time limit.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well no, RHM is 100% going to get badly hurt and/or killed from being stabbed, beheaded or shot by bullets.
And if RHM doesn't use bottled time from the start, it's likely for Fulgore to put pressure on him, get close and get the better of him.

What stops RHM from shooting him as well or use his shield to deflect attacks

And still, if RHM is truly Time stop GG I wonder why he was allowed to enter this tournament, since the point was to have no op hax, and many other characters here wouldn't have had true options against time slow and stop with apparently no weakness or time limit.

Time stop isn't instant. The ability starts with time slow, and after enough time of being used it evolves into a full time stop after enough time. If Fulgore can kill him before he could time stop, then he won't be able to use it

 

[SamanPatou]

What stops RHM from shooting him as well or use his shield to deflect attacks

He can, but from what I see he doesn't have particular skill feats aside from being competent and having good training and experience.
On the other side Fulgore can quickly cover the starting distance with teleportation, dodge, jump, turn invisible, reflect (which would in turn force RHM to dodge or reflect back) and once he gets close enough, start shooting back lasers and projectiles.
And it's not like RHM is aware of all these things and able to immediately react and counter.

About bottled time, the video linked on his profile shows that time is greatly slowed down from the very start to the point he can blitz and dodge Henry with ease, meaning that he basically becomes invincible, unless the opponent has a resistance or some other hax like screwing his mind or else.

 

[Mariogoods]

I vote to RHM FRA.

 

[Coolboy6]

Counted

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

RHM has Reaction Speed that's ×10 his Combat Speed, so I don't think Fulgore is gonna land any hits on RHM

 

[Coolboy6]

RHM has Reaction Speed that's ×10 his Combat Speed, so I don't think Fulgore is gonna land any hits on RHM

Speed is equalized so that doesn’t matter. I think combat and reaction speed is always equalized in speed equal.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Speed is equalized so that doesn’t matter. I think combat and reaction speed is always equalized in speed equal.

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

This means that RHM would still have speeds which are Hypersonic comparated to his own combat speed for his reactions

 

[Coolboy6]

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

This means that RHM would still have speeds which are Hypersonic comparated to his own combat speed for his reactions

Shouldn’t that also scale to combat speed as well since RHM and Henry can keep up with each other?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Shouldn’t that also scale to combat speed as well since RHM and Henry can keep up with each other?

Maybe? RHM's profile says that he has Subsonic+ speed with Hypersonic reactions

 

[Coolboy6]

Bump

 

[Coolboy6]

Bump

 

[Coolboy6]

What happened here? First everyone was discussing and now there’s nothing?

 

[SamanPatou]

I think we've said everything there was to say, to the point we were starting to repeat things.

I stand by my idea that if RHM doesn't use time bottle somewhat quickly, Fulgore won't have too many troubles closing the distance and overwhelm him, or just kill him with a surprise attack or else with all the tools at its disposal.

If RHM used bottled time, then it's basically game over, since it takes it a second to make Fulgore slow like a snail, until time gets permanently stopped.
And I won't keep going on with this thing because it seems I'm salty because my character is going to lose, but I stand by the opinion that bottled time is kind of broken for the purpose of this tournament.
People said and shown it's rather in character for him to use it, and it doesn't matter if time stop is instantaneos, what happens immediately is that time slows down enough to make the match turn into a speedblitz for RHM, and how many characters in this tournament would have had a reliable reply against this?

 

[Coolboy6]

I think we've said everything there was to say, to the point we were starting to repeat things.

I stand by my idea that if RHM doesn't use time bottle somewhat quickly, Fulgore won't have too many troubles closing the distance and overwhelm him, or just kill him with a surprise attack or else with all the tools at its disposal.

If RHM used bottled time, then it's basically game over, since it takes it a second to make Fulgore slow like a snail, until time gets permanently stopped.
And I won't keep going on with this thing because it seems I'm salty because my character is going to lose, but I stand by the opinion that bottled time is kind of broken for the purpose of this tournament.
People said and shown it's rather in character for him to use it, and it doesn't matter if time stop is instantaneos, what happens immediately is that time slows down enough to make the match turn into a speedblitz for RHM, and how many characters in this tournament would have had a reliable reply against this?

Well someone did point out that RHM’s reaction speed is 10x his combat speed.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think speed equalized already covers it, and if it doesn't because it isn't listed, then it's just a caveat that needs to be fixed, otherwise every single match that has been added to profiles and is currently being discussed should account for reaction speed not being equalized.

I think this is only valid when a character has something that alters their perception of time, like Spider-Man, Reptile from MK and so on.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think speed equalized already covers it, and if it doesn't because it isn't listed, then it's just a caveat that needs to be fixed

That rule was the reason why all Pokemon Trainers versus threads were removed tho

 

[SamanPatou]

The page itself says that any other speed is equalized, mentioning reactions and perception too.
And it's rather common for characters to have reactions faster than their general movements and/or attacks, and since the purpose of equalizing speed is to prevent blitz and make the game fair, I don't think we're purposingly separating them even though it would mess with what the rule tries to put in order.

The only thing that I recall is that weapons and stuff like that don't suffer from equalization, and is a character could achieve something through their own speed (like dodging thinks, walk on water, create afterimages etc...) they are assumed to still be able of doing it even though they shouldn't with their speed reduced.
After all, it's a way to allow us to play a game, not a rule that dictates how we index the stats.

 

[SamanPatou]

Also, I feel like Pokemon Trainers, and maybe all other summoners who don't scale enough to their summons, should be considered their own thing.
Summoners in general were a problem when it came to handling how they should be treated in a vs thread.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Also, I feel like Pokemon Trainers, and maybe all other summoners who don't scale enough to their summons, should be considered their own thing.
Summoners in general were a problem when it came to handling how they should be treated in a vs thread.

Pokemon trainers have nothing to do with this battle though, but regardless, trainers always sends their Pokemon for battle, so the Pokemon fight for them

 

[SamanPatou]

That was my point, we shouldn't use them, who are a special case, to judge how rules apply to every single vs match.
I guess the problem is that their own speed and reactions don't scale to their Pokémon, but I don't want to derail this thread any further.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Doesn't Fulgore's Invisibility counter RHM Time Slow? Since RHM needs to see Fulgore to dodge him?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Doesn't Fulgore's Invisibility counter RHM Time Slow? Since RHM needs to see Fulgore to dodge him?

How his invisibility work? And RHM can use shock waves to do AoE damage on Fulgore, as he used them to kill Henry

 

[SamanPatou]

Fulgore's invisibility doesn't last forever and needs to be reactivated once it ends.
But from the very start Fulgore would be incredibly slow, meaning that its chances to hit him wouldn't be that many. I can't find the video right now, but Henry was really, really slow.

How his invisibility work? And RHM can use shock waves to do AoE damage on Fulgore, as he used them to kill Henry

It just becomes invisible at will, check the "Inviso" technique on its profile.
Do we have proof RHM's shockwaves are AoE? His profile and the game only say "a massive shockwave" which can mean everything and nothing, and it doesn't necessarily has to be an omnidirectional blast.
Even then, Fulgore can teleport through it or just defend, the ap gap isn't oneshot-worthy.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Fulgore's invisibility doesn't last forever and needs to be reactivated once it ends.
But from the very start Fulgore would be incredibly slow, meaning that its chances to hit him wouldn't be that many. I can't find the video right now, but Henry was really, really slow.

How was Henry slow? He literally blitzed right past a man, and has a speed blitz technique (which is where his Hypersonic feat is from)

It just becomes invisible at will, check the "Inviso" technique on its profile.
Do we have proof RHM's shockwaves are AoE? His profile and the game only say "a massive shockwave" which can mean everything and nothing, and it doesn't necessarily has to be an omnidirectional blast.

Shockwaves are literally AoE, as they travel in all directions, as all waves do. Shock waves not being AoE is something that should be proved

Even then, Fulgore can teleport through it or just defend, the ap gap isn't oneshot-worthy.

Still, I doubt he could kill RHM before he'd use his bottled time to stop him in time after enough time

 

[SamanPatou]

How was Henry slow? He literally blitzed right past a man, and has a speed blitz technique (which is where his Hypersonic feat is from)

I mean that Henry becomes slow when RHM uses bottled time.
From the very start, time slows down to the point Henry is so slow that RHM can easily dodge every attack with ease, which is why I questioned the fairness of such item.

Shockwaves are literally AoE, as they travel in all directions, as all waves do. Shock waves not being AoE is something that should be proved

Not necessarily, especially in fiction, where everything can happen.
Shockwaves can be localized, travel through to ground as circles, through the air as waves, as projectiles, expand around the user as a dome etc..
Without specific details, we can assume RHM's shockwave is an AoE, but not be sure of it.

Still, I doubt he could kill RHM before he'd use his bottled time to stop him in time after enough time

I don't think it's too unlikely either, though.

Count me as inconclusive.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean that Henry becomes slow when RHM uses bottled time.
From the very start, time slows down to the point Henry is so slow that RHM can easily dodge every attack with ease, which is why I questioned the fairness of such item.

RHM likely won't start with bottled time, but he will use it if he sees Fulgore as a threat like he did with Cyborg Henry

Time slow would make RHM faster to dodge attack, but that isn't passive (the sands of time are passively growing stronger overtime, but the ability itself isn't passive), as Henry was still able to catch RHM off guard and hit him

Not necessarily, especially in fiction, where everything can happen.
Shockwaves can be localized, travel through to ground as circles, through the air as waves, as projectiles, expand around the user as a dome etc..
Without specific details, we can assume RHM's shockwave is an AoE, but not be sure of it.

In fiction shockwaves could be anything yes, but usually we get details about its nature if it isn't omnidirectional. In real life, it is omnidirectional so we can assume AoE unless proven otherwise

 

[TyranoDoom30]

J.Geil FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

RHM likely won't start with bottled time, but he will use it if he sees Fulgore as a threat like he did with Cyborg Henry

Time slow would make RHM faster to dodge attack, but that isn't passive (the sands of time are passively growing stronger overtime, but the ability itself isn't passive), as Henry was still able to catch RHM off guard and hit him

Yes, but the only reason he lost was because that single punch sent him to another timeline.
He won't start with that, but I guess he would use it once he sees this menacing robot shooting lasers while teleporting around, becoming invisible and reflecting bullets, I guess he would want to avoid confronting it from close distance.

In fiction shockwaves could be anything yes, but usually we get details about its nature if it isn't omnidirectional. In real life, it is omnidirectional so we can assume AoE unless proven otherwise

I disagree, especially because we aren't talking about a realistic setting, thus an omnidiectional shockwave is only one of the many possible options, at least to me, there really isn't a way to properly end this debate.