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9-B Brackets: Round 5

She had to admit, she was impressed. Sanguine wasn't taking any chances fighting the Black Cleaver, but neither was he missing opportunities. The God-Killer dagger gave him confidence, but he wasn't letting that spill over into cockiness. He attacked with skill, and timing, and patience, and he came close a few times. The Black Cleaver obviously knew what the dagger was, because he twisted and spun and danced just out of reach. There was a healthy respect at work here from both men. Sanguine stumbled away from a swiping blade, into the wall. And he smiled. The wall crumbled and he sank into it. The Black Cleaver turned, wary, stepping lightly and quickly. Sanguine lunged from the opposite wall and the Black Cleaver blocked the slash, but the dagger cut through the scythe blade like it was paper. The Cleaver abandoned his weapon and flipped backwards, to the door of the Ops Room. He snatched a fallen scythe from the ground and whirled, but Sanguine was already gone. The Black Cleaver was outmatched. He turned his visored helmet towards Tanith, then broke into a sprint, and she readied herself. As the Cleaver sprinted down the corridor, Sanguine leaped out of one wall and into the other, criss-crossing his path, slashing at every chance he got. The Cleaver flipped or jumped or whirled away from every cut. The closer he got to Tanith, the more desperate Sanguine seemed to become. Tanith tightened her grip on her sword, and bared her teeth. The Cleaver was five strides from her when Sanguine tackled him. The dagger fell and the Cleaver's elbow smacked into the Texan's jaw, and he spun, ended up facing Tanith, the Black Cleaver right behind him, scythe whirling in his hands. Tanith opened her mouth to shout a warning. The scythe swung for Sanguine's neck, but he was already turning, launching himself into a dive. Tanith had seen walls and floors crack before him, but never had she seen clothes and flesh. This was the moment where that changed. The Black Cleaver's armoured coat frayed and the pale skin beneath split, almost too fast for it to register, and Sanguine dived through the Cleaver. He hit the ground behind and rolled to his feet, dripping with black blood. The Cleaver looked down at his ruined torso. Now Sanguine grinned, his cockiness returning to him. And he had a right to be cocky. Diving through the body would have killed just about any living creature.
 
Okay then. Again, doesn't change the fact of what I previously said regarding a single well timed surprise is enough.

The same way ants communicate... The same way Scott realizes that the ants are panicking and moving outwards or are moving towards where they're dying because of enemies being there. On the other hand if Scott mixes in with the number of ants how would Billy even realize where he is? Not that that's necessary.

He's willing to toss things that would kill a person. How in the world would he not be okay with using a shrink disc to even possibly dispatch someone? I mean, shrinking someone for all he know could've been a way to subdue an enemy. His line of dialogue could be "Aw crap... I thought he was gonna be okay when I shrunk him" when he accidentally tossed in something that could kill someone in Infinity War with a blast instead of just crushing them. So yeah. The whole logic of "He's not gonna do it" when he did things much more fatal, falls apart at that point.

So his tunneling affects multiple targets at once? Then still rely on the ants on the surface of the ground then. Also considering its central park there's bound to be trees and cars there. Or concrete to move on.


One, lovely excerpt there. Damn.

Two, that actually... seems like it's the same was Antman dominated Black Widow on combat. Aka using his abilities. The entire time it seems that Cleaver only had the disadvatange due to him constantly relying on moving from tunnel to tunnel, relying on ambushes. If he really was superior in hand to hand combat even against such a weapon, there would be no need to rely on moving about here and there. In fact he even got desperate and slipped up, forcing him to well, tunnel through the guy. So yeah... Cleaver is outmatched in the sense that his combo of abilities and attacks are dominating him, but on the other hand you have sentences after, Sanguine getting desperate. That's not something that someone 'outmatching' another person should be labelled. So that even puts questions on how effective he really is against such a master of combat.

Last comment of the night, gonna sleep now
 
I think you misread those last bits.

He wasn't desperate because he was losing the fight. He was desparate because the Cleaver was getting closer to Tanith and was going to kill her. He is explicitly stated to outmatch the Black Cleaver

You're talking about civil war right? When he throws the oil truck that he thought was a water truck?
 
One more wouldn't hurt

Nope. I read it clearly. In that case, why didn't he just fight him head on if he really is a master of the fist/blade/etc? If he really did outmatch him, there was no need for him to rely on his ability. So it was more a use of tactics and ability. You have no reason to be desperate against someone whom you can easily outmatch in that case whether or not they're about to approach and try to kill someone close to you. That's not really truly a one on one superiority thing if he had to keep backing off and ambushing (I mean sure there are close fights, but nothing speaks 'outskill'. If anything I'd recommend him to drag her away from him through tunneling.

Yup. So even a slip up that could potentially kill is something Scott can do. That's disregarding the fact that enlarging things into massive sizes would often crush or outright kill others.

Anyway officially gnight
 
BUMP

Since I think there's been clear arguments on both ends here, and all we need is a small amount of votes, I think I'll open up the next round soon.
 
Scott - 6 (Chartate, Core, Jiangshi, Apies, Nico, Spino)

Billy - 3 (Monarch, Shrek, Mand)

Incon - 1 (Litentric)
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
Nope. I read it clearly. In that case, why didn't he just fight him head on if he really is a master of the fist/blade/etc? If he really did outmatch him, there was no need for him to rely on his ability. So it was more a use of tactics and ability. You have no reason to be desperate against someone whom you can easily outmatch in that case whether or not they're about to approach and try to kill someone close to you. That's not really truly a one on one superiority thing if he had to keep backing off and ambushing (I mean sure there are close fights, but nothing speaks 'outskill'. If anything I'd recommend him to drag her away from him through tunneling.

Yup. So even a slip up that could potentially kill is something Scott can do. That's disregarding the fact that enlarging things into massive sizes would often crush or outright kill others.
Click to expand...
I think you're underestimating the skill difference between just beating someone and trying to protect someone else at the same time. You can be better than someone in one on one, but not when trying to protect someone else at the same time.

And it's enlarging things into massive size and using them to crush enemies that is in-character for him to do if he's trying to kill them. Not using discs to shrink people to death. The first, can be easily beaten by Sanguine. The second is a bit more difficult, so it's a good thing that Scott does not do that.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
I think you're underestimating the skill difference between just beating someone and trying to protect someone else at the same time. You can be better than someone in one on one, but not when trying to protect someone else at the same time.

And it's enlarging things into massive size and using them to crush enemies that is in-character for him to do if he's trying to kill them. Not using discs to shrink people to death. The first, can be easily beaten by Sanguine. The second is a bit more difficult, so it's a good thing that Scott does not do that.
Click to expand...
This
 
If you're superior to someone in combat, what's actually stopping you from controlling the flow of battle? What's stopping you from preventing them from moving at a certain direction? If he really was superior, all he had to do is tunnel between him and the girl, and continue the fight there on. Instead you can see him using his ability to the fullest.

You're right. There is a difference between protecting someone and beating someone one on one. But in this case it doesn't seem like she was a meter or so close.

He turned his visored helmet towards Tanith, then broke into a sprint, and she readied herself. As the Cleaver sprinted down the corridor, Sanguine leaped out of one wall and into the other, criss-crossing his path, slashing at every chance he got. The Cleaver flipped or jumped or whirled away from every cut. The closer he got to Tanith, the more desperate Sanguine seemed to become.

There's enough room for him to run down a corridor. Enough room for Sanguine to show up in between and fight there one on one. It's not as if he's carrying her while fighting. It's not as if I underestimate it. But from the looks of it, Sanguine made sure to avoid fighting one on one without using his abilities.

So yes, you can be better than someone but you're having trouble protecting someone from them while fighting. That happens a lot in hero or action movies. But from the looks of the situation, it doesn't seem like that's the case. It doesn't seem like he holds superiority, and has to desperately do everything he can to make him back off.


Tunneling through something big is what I'm guessing how he counters it. That makes sense. But it's not like a twig being thrown at him and then being hit by an enlargement device would be something easy to pass through. Again with this? He's not gonna use a shrinking device tech against a guy who is 'seemingly superior' in combat or consider the fact that if he makes him smaller he would have to deal with ants to face? Here's another one then. The likelihood of him missing his shrink disc and hitting Billy here, is also possible. And that's a "Aw crap, I thought he was just gonna be fine..."


Tldr

Your own text betrays you by showing desperation and how much space is between Cleaver and the girl.

Situations are still far too difficult for Billy here. Especially if Scott misses the blade and hits him with a shrink disc, even by accident.
 
Scott doesn't just throw shrink discs to disarm people

"It's not like t would be easy to pass through a giant twig", uh why not exactly? It's no different to anything else he passes through. Plus, it's explained that things keep their own mass even when shrunk or expanded, so a twig would easily be pushed away regardless of how big it expands to be
 
Also, you're helpfully ignoring the first part of the quote, which doesn't say anything about Sanguine using his abilities.

She had to admit, she was impressed. Sanguine wasn't taking any chances fighting the Black Cleaver, but neither was he missing opportunities. The God-Killer dagger gave him confidence, but he wasn't letting that spill over into cockiness. He attacked with skill, and timing, and patience, and he came close a few times.
 
^

Honestly I think it's due to popularity, but Core does make their points.
 
Yeah, his arguments are pretty damn good, but Monarch is leading it too damn well and arguably arguing (...owo) better, yet nearly every "FRA" is for Antman. If only we'd have someone bring a "Billy FRA" or switch votes to Billy, this might even get more interesting since 7 votes would no longer be enough to finish the thread.

It's slightly sad when threads are a race towards 7 votes. XD
 
Personally I'm rooting for incon so I can have them face off in a swimsuit contest.
 
He doesn't because he never faced an opponent with a knife that goes around tunneling through the environment and people.

Weird wording. But what I meant was it's not exactly easy to predict or notice that through your vision- err, however Billy sees the enemy. There are sometimes things that you can't dodge when it's already heading for you. Can he tunnel through water?

@2nd Quote

I can be an unskilled fighter and I could still be cautious and not taking any chances. That quote's not good news I'm afraid. It says he's not taking any chances fighting the black cleaver, but neither was he missing opportunities. Aka slip ups. Anything he can take advantage of. From the semantics of that sentence it implies that Sanguine has to avoid a full on direct fight. He needed to rely on slip ups. The knife gave him confidence and he's not letting that get to his head, that's fine. He attacked with skill but it doesn't say he's overwhelming him. That also doesn't always guarantees one can keep up with the other. I can attack with skill yet still be overwhelmed, especially when you add in the timing and patience. Came close a few times is fair. But this also is what leads to my above quoted message there.

To add some more that quote leads to =

The Black Cleaver obviously knew what the dagger was, because he twisted and spun and danced just out of reach.

Which makes it seem that the Cleaver was more wary of the dagger and that was the key to what made him so cautious. Is Sanguine skilled? Yes. Is that skill enough to match? That's the issue. Especially considering what leads to next is him trying to keep up with her on the first place. So yes, he didn't use abilities initially, but at the same time it wasn't as if he's overwhelming him either. On the other hand if he can truly keep up, regardless of whether or not he could use abilities earlier or not, it shows that he had to rely on them to deny passage. To deny Cleaver from moving forward. So in the end, he still needs to use those sets of abilities.


If it's just about popularity the entire VSB is gonna be one big popularity contest. I'm a fan of the obscure and frankly I find both characters obscure. Billy seemingly being not too popular but has some interesting stuff going for him. Making tunneling interesting like that. On the other hand who cares about Ant-man that much? Either way this fight feels more like a tie anyway which is really what's bothering me on how you guys would handle it. Though I still stay with Scott winning.


By the way what's even the smallest thing that Billy could sense?


Billy

> Tunneling means ground superiority and can fatally kill with hand to hand

> Edges out on hand to hand combat and fatally prevents healing

> Senses keeps track of Ant man (still need clarificaiton instead of "Just magic" because for all we know it detects mana or has a limited range)

Antman

> Size makes him a very hard target and allows to easily dodge attacks

> Ant army is helpful on giving at least an early warning

> Can maintain position at air

> Can seriously cause devasatation on the environment by enlarging things that shouldn't be or maybe even making things wet

> Can oneshot with his enlargment discs and shrinking discs (Shrink him, or cause an 'accidental explosion' by thrown car), and combine with ant army, may be bad


Actually.... If Ant-man chooses to he could just enlarge all his ants to combat. That's a funny scene. Unlikely to happen since he'll likely shrink the killer in front of him first
 
Yay, Scott probably loses anyway to the other guy from what I see on the brackets anyway. Even Billy I'm struggling to find a way to win.

It sounds like it should be. Should be noted to cancel Regenerationn to a certain degree.
 
Eh I don't know about cancelling Regenerationn. Maybe, seeing as Darq sure didn't want to get hit

If it's anything like the God Killer sword though, which it should be because they are part of a set and gain their powers from the same source, it ignores durability, and any wound it inflicts no matter how small will expand. So if you get a tiny scratch on your leg, the wound will expand until your entire body is chopped in half.
 
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