7D Trinity Seven Downgrade

[Rendynoc0unter]

This time I just want to remove the 6D rating from the Cloud. I hope this will be a very simple thread.

---

Conclusion in the Delta thread;

• World 4-D.
• Heavenly & Archives Realm 5-D.
• Cloud 6-D.
• Akashic Record 7-D.

---

In the past, my friend and I upgraded Trinity Seven's 1-C or 7D rating, I personally was still neutral towards "Cloud" who was rated 6D, for several reasons.

Delta said that the Magus in the 4D world draws magic power from the Archives in the higher-level Reality of Trinity Seven, the Heavenly Realm (5-D). And the Adjudicators in the Heavenly Realm draws power from the Clouds associated with the Higher Dimensions.

But unfortunately, the "Higher Dimension" in question, refers to the Higher Dimension of the Gods, not to the higher dimension of the Clouds themselves, as those of you following the Delta thread would already know that Gods are Higher Dimensional beings.

Feats:
The highest-ranked archive that guides magic. It is directly linked to the wisdom of the gods; those who connect to it can use magic powers equal to those of gods. However, when connected in the normal world, it depletes one's magical reserves severely, and even high-ranking maguses will have their magic sapped in minutes. The adjudicators of the heavenly realm boast of inexhaustible supplies of magic, so they mainly use connections to the cloud. They can obtain even more overwhelmingly powerful magic than when connecting to the archives, but coming close to such god-like levels brings with it tremendous risk. ~ Glossary; Cloud.

So, since Cloud is not a single Higher Dimension, but is dependent on the "Higher Dimensions" of the Gods, this makes it necessary to remove the 7D rating, as Cloud himself was already connected to the wisdom of the gods from the beginning.

Tl;dr. Clouds, Akashic Record, The Gods is 6D.

Therefore, we will be returning Arata's 1-C rating to 2-A as before for the time being. (I will reorganize the thread about Trinity Seven's Higher Dimension, as well as Arata's new tier 1 rating when I have some free time on the forum).

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Killerdrone123]

This time I just want to remove the 6D rating from the Cloud. I hope this will be a very simple thread.

---

Conclusion in the Delta thread;

• World 4-D.
• Heavenly & Archives Realm 5-D.
• Cloud 6-D.
• Akashic Record 7-D.

---

In the past, my friend and I upgraded Trinity Seven's 1-C or 7D rating, I personally was still neutral towards "Cloud" who was rated 6D, for several reasons.

Delta said that the Magus in the 4D world draws magic power from the Archives in the higher-level Reality of Trinity Seven, the Heavenly Realm (5-D). And the Adjudicators in the Heavenly Realm draws power from the Clouds associated with the Higher Dimensions.

But unfortunately, the "Higher Dimension" in question, refers to the Higher Dimension of the Gods, not to the higher dimension of the Clouds themselves, as those of you following the Delta thread would already know that Gods are Higher Dimensional beings.



So, since Cloud is not a single Higher Dimension, but is dependent on the "Higher Dimensions" of the Gods, this makes it necessary to remove the 7D rating, as Cloud himself was already connected to the wisdom of the gods from the beginning.

Tl;dr. Clouds, Akashic Record, The Gods is 6D.

Therefore, we will be returning Arata's 1-C rating to 2-A as before for the time being. (I will reorganize the thread about Trinity Seven's Higher Dimension, as well as Arata's new tier 1 rating when I have some free time on the forum).

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

Well I agree

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

i am not that knowledgeable on verse, but the changes seems fine to me

 

[Shereen]

Damn, this looks fine (I think) to me who is quite active in debating the Delta (pro) thread, agree with the proposal.

 

[Robo432343]

how do people who aren't knowledgeable on the verse even understand what OP is talking about

anyway i'll wait for Delta's reply

 

[Qawsedf234]

The change itself, pending a response, is fine. But the profile that scales to Tier 1 still needs to have their justification updated so its actually readable to someone with no knowledge on the verse.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

how do people who aren't knowledgeable on the verse even understand what OP is talking about

anyway i'll wait for Delta's reply

I said not that much, i didn't said I am fully unaware of verse

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

The change itself, pending a response, is fine. But the profile that scales to Tier 1 still needs to have their justification updated so its actually readable to someone with no knowledge on the verse.

Yes, if Nexp has tidied up Arata's profile (the most prominent character at the moment), I will make a new justification for his rating in the near future.

 

[Robo432343]

I said not that much, i didn't said I am fully unaware of verse

Oh I wasn’t talking about you specifically

 

[Anzu_Hanashiro]

I won't get involved in this, maybe we should wait for Delta to respond

 

[Delta333]

Disagree, it's simple, you say that clouds and gods exist in the same dimension while showing no scan for that, plus mages have shown to both access and have knowledge about the cloud while the same doesn't apply to god so idk where does that come from.

The only thing you show is just this simple statement

"It is directly linked to the wisdom of the gods"

But yea I don't know since when lower dimensional stuff linked with higher dimension results in anti feat at all.

That said, I don't mind removing the tier 1 rating as what you describe on the profile has little to nothing to do with tier 1 (yea destroying a character who exists in higher dimension doesn't mean you have higher dimensional AP by any chance).

Edit: Not that I disagree with Arata tier 1, but the justification is bad.

 

[Anzu_Hanashiro]

But I don't think to associate with the gods of the Akashic Record is to assume that Heaven is equal to the gods of the Akashic Record.

Just because you are affiliated with something doesn't mean you have the same power as that thing

Let's take an example: Character A is linked to a planet, so it doesn't mean that Character A can destroy planet B because they are linked together.

Or an ant linked to a planet, can the ant be equal to an entity greater and stronger than them?

 

[Anzu_Hanashiro]

Or something simple, let's get some scan that shows the clouds and the gods exist on equal terms
~~probably not~~

 

[Delta333]

But I don't think to associate with the gods of the Akashic Record is to assume that Heaven is equal to the gods of the Akashic Record.

That and the fact about many things in the series point out that mages can't reach the akashic record of god, while they already accessed to the cloud.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Disagree, it's simple, you say that clouds and gods exist in the same dimension while showing no scan for that

I am not saying that Cloud is in the same dimension as the Akashic. I'm just saying that Cloud is connected to the Akashic.

For example;
A-----B

A is the Cloud and B is the Akashic. So, they are literally two different dimensions, yet the Cloud is connected to the Akashic Records dimension.

mages have shown to both access and have knowledge about the cloud while the same doesn't apply to god so idk where does that come from.

The Gods have absolutely no need for Archives or Thema, as they already have concepts that will generate magic endlessly.

The only thing you show is just this simple statement
But yea I don't know since when lower dimensional stuff linked with higher dimension results in anti feat at all.

The statement only proves that the Higher Dimension referred to by Cloud only refers to God's Higher Dimension.

That said, I don't mind removing the tier 1 rating as what you describe on the profile has little to nothing to do with tier 1 (yea destroying a character who exists in higher dimension doesn't mean you have higher dimensional AP by any chance).

Edit: Not that I disagree with Arata tier 1, but the justification is bad.

Umm, someone seems to be telling me to apply that justification, who do you think?.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

That and the fact about many things in the series point out that mages can't reach the akashic record of god, while they already accessed to the cloud.

reach out? You mean, it exists in the Akashic? yes, no. However, there is a Magus, a former adjudicator who knows in great detail about the truth of the Akashic Records, that is because she has transcended time and space.

 

[Delta333]

I am not saying that Cloud is in the same dimension as the Akashic. I'm just saying that Cloud is connected to the Akashic.

So what is the point of this thread? You want to downgrade because they're connected so they don't have different dimensionality or what? What you described on OP is hardly understandable for even a supporter like me, let alone those who have no knowledge about the series.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

So what is the point of this thread? You want to downgrade because they're connected so they don't have different dimensionality or what? What you described on OP is hardly understandable for even a supporter like me, let alone those who have no knowledge about the series.

Just proves that Cloud is not higher dimensional as you said earlier.

 

[Delta333]

Just proves that Cloud is not higher dimensional as you said earlier.

I said cloud is higher dimensional, it's the reason for 7-D in the first place.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

I said cloud is higher dimensional, it's the reason for 7-D in the first place.

Yes, that's why I proposed the removal of the 7D rating for the Trinity Sven, because the Clouds are not as you said.

(I found this out after rereading the series).

 

[Delta333]

Yes, that's why I proposed the removal of the 7D rating for the Trinity Sven, because the Clouds are not as you said.

(I found this out after rereading the series).

So which scan says that it’s not higher dimensional?

 

[Georredannea15]

I don't know much about the verse, does the verse downgrade to 2-A or will it still remain tier 1? Or will someone still be scaled to tier 1?

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

So which scan says that it’s not higher dimensional?

i will reply to this later

I don't know much about the verse, does the verse downgrade to 2-A or will it still remain tier 1? Or will someone still be scaled to tier 1?

remains in tier 1, and Arata should be in tier 1 as well. I will make a new justification when I have published the latest T7 cosmology thread

 

[Georredannea15]

remains in tier 1, and Arata should be in tier 1 as well. I will make a new justification when I have published the latest T7 cosmology thread

I guess he's still remain in 6-D, right?

OP said above he would be 2-A , that's why i was confused.

 

[Wikisource]

I find it quite confusing, why is the cloud not 6D?

 

[Delta333]

The OP's writing is not really comprehensible.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

I hope you read the Delta thread first about Cloud.

 

[Anzu_Hanashiro]

I think what you need to prove is that cloud is not a higher dimension

In any case, Cloud ( A ) Linking/Connecting to Akashic Record ( B ) does not make Cloud equal to Akashic Record.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

I guess he's still remain in 6-D, right?

OP said above he would be 2-A , that's why i was confused.

Yes, Arata deliberately returned to 2-A because he had a poor justification.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

If Magus in the 4-D worlds draws power upon the Archives of the 5-D Heavenly Realm, then the Arbitrator in the 5-D Heavenly Realm will draw power upon the Clouds of even higher and more archetypal dimension, from this, it can be inferred that there is a 6-D structure that's superior to 5-D realm in the similar way that the 5-D realm being superior to infinite 4-D worlds.

The OP's writing is not really comprehensible.

Actually, it's not confusing, the OP's main point here is just to remove the 6D rating from your assumptions in the previous thread. There you brutally claimed that "Clouds" are 6D because they are "associated with Higher Dimensions". In fact, the "Higher Dimension" in question is the Higher Dimension of the Gods, not the Higher Dimension of the Cloud itself. Please read the OP of the thread you made in the past.

 

[Delta333]

they are "associated with Higher Dimensions"

So you are misreading the text itself, it doesn't remotely say that the cloud is associated with a higher dimension, but it says the heavenly adjudicators are those who are associated with something of a higher dimension in relation to themselves, said "something" then is directly referred to the clouds.

Here is the scan in question, feel free to let me know which part says like what you're referring to.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

reading the scans it just says those things (cloud) are just the pinnacle of those of a higher dimension

now I do not know if this higher dimension refers to the already 5D heavenly principles because there's literally 0 context in this scans
but base from the sentence structure
Rendy's point makes sense here. it did not say it is a higher dimension. it just says they are the pinnacle of those higher dimension which is the heavenly principles as established

reading back into the old thread
I can see 6D being solid

 

[Delta333]

reading the scans it just says those things (cloud) are just the pinnacle of those of a higher dimension

now I do not know if this higher dimension refers to the already 5D heavenly principles because there's literally 0 context in this scans
but base from the sentence structure
Rendy's point makes sense here. it did not say it is a higher dimension. it just says they are the pinnacle of those higher dimension which is the heavenly principles as established

reading back into the old thread
I can see 6D being solid

I mean “something of higher dimension” can only mean that it belongs to the higher dimension. If you read the text at the right you would know that “those associated with something of a higher dimension” here refers to the mages using the cloud (the heavenly adjudicators are pinnacle among them) rather than the clouds themselves.

(Wiki fandom seems to say the same to btw)

Since Arbitrators are those who at the pinnacle level and who can connect to the Clouds, which represent the eight cardinal sins and the four cardinal virtues. Something on a higher level and more ancient than "Archive".

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

wiki fandom literally says pinnacle level which also translate to higher level
not all higher level translate to higher dimension
further more they classified it as more ancient than Archive

idk you asked us to see for ourself and that's how I see it even If i try to frame it differently

 

[Delta333]

wiki fandom literally says pinnacle level which also translate to higher level
not all higher level translate to higher dimension
further more they classified it as more ancient than Archive

idk you asked us to see for ourself and that's how I see it even If i try to frame it differently

Higher dimension is translated from the official translation, if that's what you want to know.

Edit: I think you misunderstand the contexts here, well quite understandable for non readers anyways.

"Pinnacle level" refers to the level of mages rather than the clouds or the archives. Those who can master the ability to use the clouds or the archive will be identified as the pinnacle at that cores of magic respectively.
For example, Trinity Seven are 7 mages who are pinnacle of those who are associated with the Archives.
Then we have the Heavenly Adjudicators (the Arbitrators), who are 9 mages (formerly 12) at the pinnacle of those being associated with the Clouds.

So the scan above just simply explains that the Arbitrators are just bunch of mages who are basically the elite among those who use the clouds in combat, and then saying that the clouds here are "something of higher dimension". It's really just simple as that.

 

[Anzu_Hanashiro]

Actually, it's not confusing, the OP's main point here is just to remove the 6D rating from your assumptions in the previous thread. There you brutally claimed that "Clouds" are 6D because they are "associated with Higher Dimensions". In fact, the "Higher Dimension" in question is the Higher Dimension of the Gods, not the Higher Dimension of the Cloud itself. Please read the OP of the thread you made in the past.

I don't think they are said to be linked

Here they are said to be a Higher Dimension and not linked to something

RATHER THAN THE "ARCHIVES" BASED ON THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS, THEY ARE THE PINNACLE OF THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH SOMETHING OF A HIGHER DIMENSION AND MORE ARCHETYPAL- "CLOUDS" BASED ON THE EIGHT EVIL THOUGHTS AND FOUR CARDINAL VIRTUES...

 

[Delta333]

Anyways, currently there are two different interpretations of the part "the pinnacle of those associated with something of a higher dimension"
Rendy interprets it as "the pinnacle of clouds associated with something of a higher dimension" while I interpret it as "the pinnacle of people (mages) associated with something of a higher dimension" (something here refers to the clouds). As Anzu said above, nothing says that the clouds are linked with anything at all.

So I believe that me and Trinity Seven wiki fandom interpret it correctly for the following reasons:
1. The fact that they put the archives and T7 mages in the normal world in comparison with the clouds and the heavenly adjudicators in the heaven heavily implied that the relationship between the archives and T7 mages has no difference from the relationship between the clouds and the heavenly adjudicators at all (That is, if the archives exist in a higher dimension than T7 mages, so do the clouds exist in higher dimension than the heavenly adjudicators).
2. As I said earlier, "those" here should refer to people (mages) who use the clouds in combat. We know that for each dimension, there always exists the group of mages who are the pinnacle of those who use the power source that's used by the mages belonging to that dimension. For example, in the normal world (baseline dimension), T7 mage is the group of those who master their respective fields of magic, those who don't master any field of magic are just normal mages.
3. Why do I say that they are the pinnacle among mages associated with the clouds? Because the heavenly adjudicators are not the only people who use the clouds at all, for example, the candidates of the heavenly adjudicators can use them too. So the heavenly adjudicators are just basically the mages that can use the cloud better than other cloud users, hence they are "the pinnacle of those associated with something of a higher dimension", with "those" here referring to the other mages that use clouds.
4. So if my three points above are correct, then "something of higher dimension" can only mean "clouds of higher dimension", which in turn, means that they belong to the higher dimension as a part of it. So the 6-D clouds remain unchanged, the whole "clouds link to the gods" stuff will just simply mean that they link to the gods while still existing in their higher dimension rather than being contradicted by any chance (for example, you can have a 6-D being having immortality as long as 100-D still exist, they are connected but not leading to anti feat obviously).

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

1. The fact that they put the archives and T7 mages in the normal world in comparison with the clouds and the heavenly adjudicators in the heaven heavily implied that the relationship between the archives and T7 mages has no difference from the relationship between the clouds and the heavenly adjudicators at all (That is, if the archives exist in a higher dimension than T7 mages, so do the clouds exist in higher dimension than the heavenly adjudicators).

Ah, sorry.

The last sentence you said was an extreme conclusion. After I read the feats again, this really makes Cloud not get +1 dimension by default, there is no qualitative superior there that makes Cloud have a higher dimension than Archive.

2. As I said earlier, "those" here should refer to people (mages) who use the clouds in combat. We know that for each dimension, there always exists the group of mages who are the pinnacle of those who use the power source that's used by the mages belonging to that dimension. For example, in the normal world (baseline dimension), T7 mage is the group of those who master their respective fields of magic, those who don't master any field of magic are just normal mages.

We can't assume like that, "those" here could also refer to magus in general. As you know, Magus itself is related to the higher dimension, the Archives.

Archive and Cloud can be thought of as Stamina and Strenght, so no matter how strong an Archive user's magic is, it still can't beat a Cloud user's magic, this was proven when Faunaria fought Lieber, where she was far superior to Lieber, this is because Faunaria is a magus who uses Cloud.

And in the quote in the OP, we are told that "The Cloud" is the highest ranked archive. So, "Peak" means that the Cloud is above the Archives.

3. Why do I say that they are the pinnacle among mages associated with the clouds? Because the heavenly adjudicators are not the only people who use the clouds at all, for example, the candidates of the heavenly adjudicators can use them too. So the heavenly adjudicators are just basically the mages that can use the cloud better than other cloud users, hence they are "the pinnacle of those associated with something of a higher dimension", with "those" here referring to the other mages that use clouds.

The heavenly adjudicator is indeed far superior compared to the heavenly adjudicator candidate, this is because the adjudicator candidate is still a magus using the Archive, but when (s)he uses Cloud, then (s)he can no longer be said to be an Adjudicator Candidate, but has become the Adjudicator him/herself.

This is evidenced when Selina was still said to be an Adjudicator candidate, she did not have "Cloud" at that time, still using Archive as before. But when she connected to the Cloud, she automatically became an Adjudicator. This was not only proven once. When Mira connected to her Cloud, she was immediately declared by Dis that she had become an Adjudicator.

So, if you look at the feats above, then an Adjudicator Candidate is just like any other high-level Magus, it's just that they have the qualifications to become an Adjudicator.

And, just being at the peak and using the Cloud better than other Cloud users doesn't get us a dimensional upgrade by default. You have to prove to be qualitatively superior to Archive and Cloud, which makes Cloud higher dimensional than Archive. And below Akashic/God.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

your input is highly appreciated here.
@Nexp06 @Rakih_Elyan

 

[Delta333]

The last sentence you said was an extreme conclusion. After I read the feats again, this really makes Cloud not get +1 dimension by default, there is no qualitative superior there that makes Cloud have a higher dimension than Archive.

The qualitative superiority between dimensions has already been proved in the previous thread, what are you talking about? If you already agreed with tier 1 of T7 then this should not be an issue.

We can't assume like that, "those" here could also refer to magus in general. As you know, Magus itself is related to the higher dimension, the Archives.

Archive and Cloud can be thought of as Stamina and Strenght, so no matter how strong an Archive user's magic is, it still can't beat a Cloud user's magic, this was proven when Faunaria fought Lieber, where she was far superior to Lieber, this is because Faunaria is a magus who uses Cloud.

And in the quote in the OP, we are told that "The Cloud" is the highest ranked archive. So, "Peak" means that the Cloud is above the Archives.

Not sure whether you ignore on purpose the fact that the terms "clouds" and "archives" can be used distinctively or not.
Also I literally say that "those" in that context refers to the mages (or magus if you want), so not sure what you are trying to prove here when you just agree with my point. So by saying that "those associated with something of a higher dimension" = "magus associated with something of a higher dimension", there is no longer thing like "cloud associated with something of a higher dimension", so thanks for supporting my point as the text never saying anything about the cloud linking with higher dimension.

The heavenly adjudicator is indeed far superior compared to the heavenly adjudicator candidate, this is because the adjudicator candidate is still a magus using the Archive, but when (s)he uses Cloud, then (s)he can no longer be said to be an Adjudicator Candidate, but has become the Adjudicator him/herself.

This is evidenced when Selina was still said to be an Adjudicator candidate, she did not have "Cloud" at that time, still using Archive as before. But when she connected to the Cloud, she automatically became an Adjudicator. This was not only proven once. When Mira connected to her Cloud, she was immediately declared by Dis that she had become an Adjudicator.

So, if you look at the feats above, then an Adjudicator Candidate is just like any other high-level Magus, it's just that they have the qualifications to become an Adjudicator.

And, just being at the peak and using the Cloud better than other Cloud users doesn't get us a dimensional upgrade by default. You have to prove to be qualitatively superior to Archive and Cloud, which makes Cloud higher dimensional than Archive. And below Akashic/God.

The fact that Selina and Mira can use the cloud doesn't disprove anything at all, if anything it just further proves that the amount of cloud users are not limited to a certain number, as we already know the original members of arbitrators don't include them at all.

Read whatever I write above again, I have proved that higher dimension in the verse has qualitative superiority, so if you want to say that cloud is not higher dimensional, try to debunk that first.