[7-3-0] Two destructive higher entities who keep the Multiverse enter a bar - Ao vs Master Unit: Amaterasu

[Theglassman12]

Which I’ve already argued it’s instant due to how PI works in general. Plus the conflicting arguments for what Ao starts with doesn’t really help the case he’d immediately start with 1-A stuff

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I mean, Ao's precog won't let him see Amaterasu, but won't it still enable him to see that something unexplainable is happening to the multiverse in the future? And if he suddenly finds himself unable to use his precog, that should tip him off that an outside threat is coming that he should take very seriously, hence the 1-a stuff being his starting move.

 

[Theglassman12]

If he’s using precognition first over his instant win button that would still be the wrong move to do when the moment he does precognition, Amaterasu’s PI would already occur, meaning she’d get the first hit before he does and it’s GG.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If he’s using precognition first over his instant win button that would still be the wrong move to do when the moment he does precognition, Amaterasu’s PI would already occur, meaning she’d get the first hit before he does and it’s GG.

Precog is passive, Glass. And the earlier discussion of PI would make me doubt it's an instant GG even if it weren't.

 

[Theglassman12]

You haven’t explained why it’s not an instant win GG when Ao doesn’t resist all of the innate abilities PI has in the first place.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I have, the video screens you showed clearly display PI not being instant, with time enough for entire dialogues and and seemingly fights to carry out before their effects take place. I called attention to that earlier.

 

[Theglassman12]

You mean the dialogue where one person is immune to PI in the first place to have a conversation, and the other has just been researching Embryos in general due to the Boundary, something the Embryo is connected to? Not really an argument when Xblaze literally has someone go to a realm where an Embryo lies in and she immediately lost the abilities to use her magic because of the PI that occurs

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The dialogue in which they mention that Amaterasu is calling on the Embryo and noting that it has not happened at that point, yes. I am confident in what I'm seeing, and that is that while Amaterasu is capable of calling on these things, they are not immediately forthcoming. There is time.

 

[Theglassman12]

Wdym calling in these things? Literally the scene prior all of reality was being warped by her appearance alone and Izanami explains what’s happening, if you’re trying to use the fact the other characters are still there despite the PI occurring, they’re chosens, which lets them survive PI due to their status of obtaining the azure or are just flat out immune to it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, I'm not using that, I haven't referred to that. I'm referring to the dialogue itself referring to Amaterasu's effects indicating that they aren't presently taking place. It isn't instant.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah the dialogue where the event already happened with Amaterasu’s appearance, and again every other instance of Phenonena Intervention occurs practically instantaneous where merely observing things is enough for it to work. Bring another argument to the table because saying it’s not instantaneous flies in the face of how Observation and Intervention works in the first place.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your own evidence contradicts the notion that Amaterasu bringing the PI occurs instantaneously. I don't see why I should need a different argument, given that my limited knowledge of the verse comes from what you've provided- which specifically runs against what it is you're arguing for Amaterasu. Insofar as evidence can tell, my argument is fine.

 

[Theglassman12]

So we’re just gonna ignore the part where Amaterasu’s already done the feat and that your whole “entire conversations were held” was refuted already, ok good to know.

Given that both Udl AND Qawsed have both said completely different things on what Ao actually starts with, it’s not really fine when it’s contradicted by other folks to begin with. So I’m really doubting that Ao starts with the 1-A stuff right off the bat after precognition.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regarding Ama, before shifting off of this: this seems to be blatantly false given your own evidence. Your evidence does show people having conversations during the supposed "instantaneous" feat. I don't understand how you keep glossing over that, and am tired of trying to get this across to you.

Now, onto the topic change: As has been told to you multiple times: Ao's starting move is open to interpretation. This has not been disputed. What has been debated is what will be used. Qawsedf mentioned Ao may destroy the multiverse before allowing it to be subjected to the Far Realm, but this would not seem to be true given his motives and what he has allowed to occur already. I didn't catch what Udl said, truthfully, but I don't see any reason for extreme debate here. Ao is aware of the potency of his abilities and whether they're needed- he has the gun and can use it.

 

[Theglassman12]

The conversations with people who have flat out immunity to the PI and it’s already done with how there’s tremors that occur because of her existence appearing. You keep glossing over that fact every time I bring it up.

He can use it, doesn’t mean he automatically starts with it, especially when it’s like 3 different spells that have 1-A potency compared to everything else which doesn’t have anything beyond Low 1-C that’s stated, it makes it really hard to believe he’d use those 3 abilities (1 of them would make the situation worse as Fear would just motivate Amaterasu to instantly wipe everything that exists) over every other spell he has.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That doesn't matter though, they're still stating that it isn't a thing that has happened, and rather that it is a process. Whether they're immune to it or not doesn't interface with the statements, hence why I don't see a need to address that- it's a strawman, addressing an argument I'm not making.

minor nitpick but there's actually significantly more than three but those handful from Cerebrosis are more reliable

There's no reason to use the fear spell given how weak it is in context (a brief reprieve). Finger of Expulsion or Welcome to the Amoebic Sea are directly instant wins.

 

[Theglassman12]

It being a process doesn't mean shit when it already happened like moments prior to the conversation. You keep treating this like Phenomena Intervention somehow takes like 10 minutes to work when that's never how PI works in the first place when merely observing the targets is enough for the effects to kick in.

Again, your entire argument of Ao winning stems on the off chance he'd use one of those 3 1-A spells for an instant win when he's got no clear in character mindset and has so many abilities in his arsenal, on top of fighting someone he has no idea what their strengths and weaknesses are, so he'd be flipping a countless sided die with what spell would work and hope he'd get lucky where Amaterasu's major move is all she needs to instantly win.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The text does not seem to align with what it is you're saying, and I think you're tackling a different thing than I am. Your text dialogue shows a process of converging/merging/whatever the embryos/PI. This is what takes some amount of time- long enough for people to observe it happening, talk about it, and seemingly implicitly fight about it. When the embryos are present, it is entirely possible that what you're saying is true- but you're not understanding the bit of the process that I'm pointing out.

My argument hinges on Ao using something that is acknowledged to be a win button, yes. Your counter argument to that is that he might just choose not to and instead maybe conjure a torch-equivalent light above Amaterasu's head, because you seem to be of the mistaken belief that anything anybody does in D&D is determined randomly. Qawsedf's argument hinges on a false belief that Ao would sooner nuke a multiverse he is accredited with maintaining (against all evidence) to avoid allowing something to be used that, up to now, he has allowed without intervention.

The facts are that Ao will foresee elements of the fight, and if he doesn't, possesses the intellect to surmise them beforehand. He has access to the tools and an awareness of their potency and relevancy to the task at hand (that is, killing off an equal). He has x amount of time to use them and can activate them by will. The facts suggest it is more likely that Ao would use his actually relevant stuff instead of conjuring 1d4 woodland animals, and it's such a silly notion that he would instead choose something like fear.

I don't intend to bicker with you because you have made it clear that you take the defense of this particular verse to be extremely personal, going so far as to level personal insults over the matter. I am embittered by this thread and the behavior on it, reinforcing my hitherto existing beliefs of what Tier 1 threads tend to bring about. To be frank: you have driven conversation to points that are not my own, and thus in circles, for awhile now, and I've come to the conclusion that no further discussion can be had about this match. The time has come to vote, and I damned hope people do so I don't have to hear about open misinterpretations of static images again for awhile.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m talking about how Phenomena Intervention works in general at this point since you keep claiming it takes too long for it to work when that’s never how the ability works in the first place, especially when it works on Quantum mechanics/Observation for it to work as opposed to it being a long process of it working in the first place.

Not just Qawsed but Udlmaster’s points too, you keep ignoring him for some reason when he’s also brought up things that are also in odds with your point.

Having X amount of time wont help him when the moment he’s being Observed on by Amaterasu he’s doneso, again this all hinges on the idea that he’d use the 1-A moves when I’m getting conflicting arguments on what exact moves he starts with in the first place. So forgive me if I’m not completely sold on him instantly using a 1-A move in the first place.

First off the most the personal insults have gotten that I’ve done is the fact I claimed you’re being disingenuous with the arguments (something we settled under the bridge) but you seem to like to bring up stuff that we got over for no reason at all but whatever, and what do you mean “driven the conversation to points that aren’t your own”? You do realize that both Qawsed and Udlmaster are bringing up points that go against what Ao’s mindset is right? Given the lack of scans to prove otherwise what am I supposed to believe in?

Sure if you wanna get straight to the votes, fine by me.

 

[noninho]

Well, I think I have reached every active dnd supporter here on the wiki
You guys want me to reach someone else, like all BB supporters?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Given that both Udl AND Qawsed have both said completely different things on what Ao actually starts with, it’s not really fine when it’s contradicted by other folks to begin with. So I’m really doubting that Ao starts with the 1-A stuff right off the bat after precognition.

Well I said that Ao wouldn't start off with it without prior knowledge.

With prep or OoC he'd use it pretty quickly from my reading, but in-character he'd only use the Finger if he's hard pressed because it involves tapping into Far Realm magics, which very few being from the normal multiverse will do.

If Bambu is arguing that Ao would precog his death and to avoid that it he'd use the Finger then that wouldn't contradict what I said. To expand on Bambu's argument if I'm reading him right, Ao is scaling above people who have rather intense precog like Odin or Mystra and his domain is "Cosmic Balance" so its likely he has about 210+ days of precog regarding what effects him or the multiverse. Which is where Bambu is argument is coming from.

Qawsedf's argument hinges on a false belief that Ao would sooner nuke a multiverse he is accredited with maintaining (against all evidence) to avoid allowing something to be used that, up to now, he has allowed without intervention.

I mean I just don't see him using it, the last time even remote energies were used it nuked the weave and nearly caused the apocalypse, which Ao couldn't stop because the Far Realm is beyond his power. But if you think that Ao would use the energy if it meant saving the Multiverse, I won't disagree with that view. Though I do think there's some counter evidence like Pandorym that should be accounted for.

 

[noninho]

Oh yeah, important to notice:

I've set this battle in an infinite minecraft superflat world, so if they were to do or not something because "they preserve their multiverses", it wouldn't interfere here and now.

 

[Theglassman12]

@noninho that would hardly matter to someone like Amaterasu who constantly rewrites everything on a daily basis regardless of collateral damage

@Qawsedf234 that doesn’t really change my point that Amaterasu still resists precognition on an insane level given her resistance is on a 5-D level, so he’d still not know what she’d do or what works on her. Either way the debate section is practically done and we’re waiting for votes now

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean I just don't see him using it, the last time even remote energies were used it nuked the weave and nearly caused the apocalypse, which Ao couldn't stop because the Far Realm is beyond his power. But if you think that Ao would use the energy if it meant saving the Multiverse, I won't disagree with that view. Though I do think there's some counter evidence like Pandorym that should be accounted for.

Ao could prevent the usage of these spells, though, as they fall within the domain of Mystra and thus his own power. Knowing that he's about to get ****** if he doesn't, and knowing that he's in a barren multiverse, and knowing that these spells have a substantially lesser effect on reality, I don't see why he'd restrict himself from using it. If it were the Forgotten Realms I may argue differently, and if it were something like opening a consistent portal to the Far Realm I would immediately agree that he wouldn't, but it's neither of those things.

 

[Qawsedf234]

my point that Amaterasu still resists precognition on an insane level given her resistance is on a 5-D level, so he’d still not know what she’d do or what works on her.

If its just "Can't be seen on a 5-D level" then its not outlandish for Ao's precog to get to her, since the Realm he operates in does have higher dimensional slices as mentioned before.

The sigil the Dread Rings defined could never exist again—not in the conventional, three-dimensional world. But there were many more dimensions than that, even if people couldn’t ordinarily perceive them. Were it otherwise, the mortal plane and all the higher and lower worlds wouldn’t be able to coexist.

He dropped his staff to clatter on the roof and summoned a different one, fashioned of clear crystal, into his hand. Once, it had belonged to Yaphyll, the greatest seer he’d ever known; he’d found it sealed in a secret vault in the Tower of Vision after the zulkirs had abandoned Bezantur. It was the best tool he possessed for what he had in mind, which was no guarantee that it was powerful enough.

He brandished the glittering staff and recited words of power, and an image of the realm’s plains, plateaus, and mountains, the rivers, lakes, and seashore appeared floating in the air before him. Black dots designated the Dread Rings and the Citadel.

He spoke again, and the map shifted, although no one else would have seen it alter. That was because Szass Tam now viewed it in four dimensions, in a manner foreign to normal human perception. And the experience was all but intolerable, like looking directly at the sun. As a necromancer, Szass Tam was used to contemplating the bizarre, the hideous, and the paradoxical, but even so, this view spiked pain through his eyes and deep into his head.

He forced himself to keep peering anyway, until he had the information to make his calculations. Which revealed that four dimensions were not enough. So he called for five and let out an involuntary groan. Five were much worse than four, exponentially worse, perhaps. And five weren’t sufficient, either.

So it was on to six, and then seven. Whimpering, shuddering, and jerking uncontrollably, he wondered if the mere act of observation could kill a man, even if the fellow was already dead. Given what he was suffering, he suspected it could, but even so, he refused to relent. He’d always known he was risking his existence by undertaking the Great Work, and if he perished now, so be it.

Eight dimensions. Then nine. And nine were enough. When he took the proper two-dimensional cross section of that curved and infinitely complex space, the surviving Dread Rings and his present location fell into the proper positions relative to one another.

Plus in general Ao's vision would apply to himself, since he's also a God and part of balance.

Either way the debate section is practically done and we’re waiting for votes now

My bad

Ao could prevent the usage of these spells, though, as they fall within the domain of Mystra and thus his own power. Knowing that he's about to get ****** if he doesn't, and knowing that he's in a barren multiverse, and knowing that these spells have a substantially lesser effect on reality, I don't see why he'd restrict himself from using it. If it were the Forgotten Realms I may argue differently, and if it were something like opening a consistent portal to the Far Realm I would immediately agree that he wouldn't, but it's neither of those things.

I see your point I guess.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 That probably should've been on the page since it doesn't mention any higher dimensional precognition in the first place, but ok. Either way, I've said my piece.

 

[noninho]

Will be posting this in Versus promotion, then

 

[Udlmaster]

Given that both Udl AND Qawsed have both said completely different things on what Ao actually starts with

I spoke about only if Amaterasu is weaker than Ao, because in which case, he'd do what he did in the Times of Trouble, where he made every God in Realmspace fight on Toril amongst each other by rewriting the rules of the Gods (causing things such as dying on Toril meaning dying for good)

Obviously, if we go with what you say and Ao can't even use his innate clairvoyance, he's obviously going to take it as a threat to reality, given nothing is supposed to be hidden from him and his Boss. So my point on what Ao starts with obviously doesn't apply.

The moment the fight starts, Ao is going to go with something that would end the fight as soon as possible against someone who is immediately a threat.

 

[noninho]

Obviously, if we go with what you say and Ao can't even use his innate clairvoyance, he's obviously going to take it as a threat to reality, given nothing is supposed to be hidden from him and his Boss. So my point on what Ao starts with obviously doesn't apply.

I see your point I guess.

May I count those as votes for him?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sure I guess

 

[noninho]

As both of you speaking sound like adding up to Bambu's vote, the score is now 7-3-0 and grace period shall begin

 

[noninho]

Grace period is now over.
Much obliged for the time of everyone involved, I will be adding it to the profiles. If any of the mods/admins could lock this, I'd be grateful.