[7-3-0] Two destructive higher entities who keep the Multiverse enter a bar - Ao vs Master Unit: Amaterasu

[Theglassman12]

It is instant though, PI on Amaterasu’s scale just happens the moment she arrives and it can extend across all of reality, also is there any evidence that Ao would start with 1-A BFR without his precog working since Amaterasu has layers upon layers of resistance to that?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ao also has layers upon layers of scaling, being the most notable overdeity.

Otherwise, maybe. The 1-A stuff, if you can believe it, is not particularly notable in the lore- although that's not to say that the practitioners of it aren't aware of the catastrophic effects it has, moreso that the setting establishes it as a thing and then only returns to it as a concept in passing. This means that Ao is aware of the abilities great destructive capacities over those others he may deign to use, so, it is at least within consideration that he would, yes- he has little reason not to do so.

I'm not sure what you mean, by the way, that it is instant- we've just seen that it isn't.

 

[Theglassman12]

It would help if he has some showings of starting off with it, especially against someone he’s never met before

If it isn’t then there’d be no reason for the Embryos to not stay away from reality in the first place, or the fact that her appearing caused the embryos to merge together.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The scans state that Amaterasu was bringing them, though. I'm not contending that part, I'm contending that being an instant effect.

You might have misread my last post, because the first part there also doesn't really make sense.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To offer some insight by way of metaphor: asking for evidence that Ao would use this ability would be more or less the same as asking if a person would know to use a gun to kill someone.

To offer another tidbit of knowledge, Ao has never fought anybody because Ao has never needed to fight anybody. He's the Overdeity, his word is backed by the Luminous Being, what he says goes. This isn't an anime character who has training arcs and a catalogue of techniques they patented at the Anime Character Fighting Moves Patent Office.

What I'm saying he has, he has based on fundamental truths of the setting: Gods can use all spells by will or thought alone, the powers of a higher god overwrite the powers of a lower god, all gods have an awareness of their portfolios across all the Planes. These three facts tell us all we need to know: that Ao is aware of the ability's potency, that Ao can use the ability, and that his abilities supercede those resistances of other less notable Overdeities.

 

[noninho]

Just to be sure: 1-A hax> beyond-infinite layered L1-C hax?

 

[Theglassman12]

@noninho why would Low 1-C hax be better than 1-A hax at all? The argument is who’s use their instant win move first.

@Mr._Bambu we’re talking about crossover matches, so having some insight on what the characters do in the first place when faced with any conflict would be helpful since it gives us an idea on what they’d use. He doesn’t know Amaterasu and doesn’t know she can resist a lot of abilities by default so if he’s ever in character started with 1-A BFR against anyone a majority of the time that would help, especially if him not knowing what Amaterasu can do will result in him using any other abilities he has no idea would get resisted by her in the first place.

 

[noninho]

@noninho why would Low 1-C hax be better than 1-A hax at all? The argument is who’s use their instant win move first.

Lemme try to explain with an example:
If we stack 100000000 (or any number higher than the diff between those tiers) layers of a 5-A Explosion Manip, will it be still worse than 4-B or would be enough to win?

In other words: is an ability which the quantity of layers is higher than a gap between certain tiers strong enough to beat the higher tier?

 

[Theglassman12]

Explosion manipulation is not a hax, and you’re comparing two 3-D tiers compared to 5-D and beyond dimensional tiers

 

[noninho]

Explosion manipulation is not a hax, and you’re comparing two 3-D tiers compared to 5-D and beyond dimensional tiers

I...know.
I tried to ask the same question with an example, and now that I know that it doesn't work, may i try again on terms closer to our situation:

When we scale a hax to above infinite layers in L1-C and the owner of said hax is against a 1-A
Is the potency of the hax higher than the 1-A (since it's above infinite layers) or is it still lower (since it's L1-C vs 1-A)?
4th time trying to ask let's gooooooo

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

@Mr._Bambu we’re talking about crossover matches, so having some insight on what the characters do in the first place when faced with any conflict would be helpful since it gives us an idea on what they’d use. He doesn’t know Amaterasu and doesn’t know she can resist a lot of abilities by default so if he’s ever in character started with 1-A BFR against anyone a majority of the time that would help, especially if him not knowing what Amaterasu can do will result in him using any other abilities he has no idea would get resisted by her in the first place.

Bambu did say that Ao has layered precog that lets him see weeks in advance, so he would know how much of a threat PI is and react accordingly.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@noninho why would Low 1-C hax be better than 1-A hax at all? The argument is who’s use their instant win move first.

@Mr._Bambu we’re talking about crossover matches, so having some insight on what the characters do in the first place when faced with any conflict would be helpful since it gives us an idea on what they’d use. He doesn’t know Amaterasu and doesn’t know she can resist a lot of abilities by default so if he’s ever in character started with 1-A BFR against anyone a majority of the time that would help, especially if him not knowing what Amaterasu can do will result in him using any other abilities he has no idea would get resisted by her in the first place.

Sure, but I'll reiterate that he would know that the 1-A ability would be the best hope of anything he has. Hence the metaphor of asking why he'd use a gun to kill someone- it is the natural option. I still posit that he can almost definitely precog (be it by god precog or the analytical prediction afforded by intelligence leagues below his own), but even if he couldn't, if he wasn't instantly wiped, it's known to him as the most definitive option to win.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just to be sure: 1-A hax> beyond-infinite layered L1-C hax?

To be clear: yeah. No amount of layers for a L1-C ability will make it better than a 1-C ability, at least not traditional layers (chains of "this guy resists and then this other guy can do the ability to him so the second version of the ability is stronger and thus layered").

 

[Theglassman12]

@BrackishBrineBroth the layered precog would mean Jack shit when Amaterasu has beyond infinite layers of resistance to Precog and is also a type 2 Acausal being in the first place, the precog would need to be able to get through both of these for it to work.

@Mr._Bambu So it would just boil down to if Ao can use BFR first (btw his range caps at Multi+ so if his BFR is accepted at 1-A that needs to change) or Amaterasu just PI GG on him. I’ll vote for inconclusive.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ao's page sucks, but to be fair the nuances in D&D would allow for Multi+ range to land you in the Far Realm.

It seems like we're accepting that Amaterasu's thing isn't instant in its results (just instantly active) and so I'll go ahead and vote Ao.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do realize just Multi+ range wouldn’t help for someone who can traverse across a Low 1-C range right? That would make the BFR null and void.

I never said it’s accepted to not be instant, I’ve argued otherwise.

 

[noninho]

Aaaaaaas this isn't a stooooooooomp
Imma vote Ao FRA

 

[Theglassman12]

Actually wait hold on, where is BFR in Ao’s page to begin with? Because I’m not seeing it anywhere there at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually wait hold on, where is BFR in Ao’s page to begin with? Because I’m not seeing it anywhere there at all.

It's a spell. All deities have access to all spells under their mechanical rules for reality warping. I can grab the scan saying deities have all spells, and the scan for the spell, if you like, but I assure you it's as I'm presenting it- any deity can will any spell's effect into existence simply by willing it. Finger of Expulsion isn't even a terribly high level spell, I think it's like 6th or 7th.

You do realize just Multi+ range wouldn’t help for someone who can traverse across a Low 1-C range right? That would make the BFR null and void.

I never said it’s accepted to not be instant, I’ve argued otherwise.

Sure, I agreed that the page was ass- this would be legitimate 1-A range stuff. You can probably tell Ao's page is ass by the fact that he, a Low 1-C, has Multi+ range to begin with (Overdeities are complicated), I just wanted to note that Multi+ wouldn't be invalid for a D&D universe sending someone to a 1-A place, either. In fact, the other 1-A-damage-BFR-spell-in-obscure-media has normal 3-D range, as it instead summons the 1-A realm around the target itself (Welcome to the Amoebic Sea is a very cool spell).

 

[noninho]

Actually wait hold on, where is BFR in Ao’s page to begin with? Because I’m not seeing it anywhere there at all.

It is in 2 places, technically:

Can give or take away any god's Divine Power and raise any being into their same level of power with a thought

likely many more

Well, one of the goddesses he created/has complete domain over (even ended her with other gods on the crisis) is Mystra, the goddess of Magic who has access to all spells in the multiverse, and we for sure have BFR spells.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It is in 2 places, technically:



Well, one of the goddesses he created/has complete domain over (even ended her with other gods on the crisis) is Mystra, the goddess of Magic who has access to all spells in the multiverse, and we for sure have BFR spells.

No, he's right that it's not on the page explicitly, it's just one of the applications of his Reality Warping (which has no follow-up text after it, because Ao's page is shit). And it's not due to his link with Mystra, every deity has those spells and can even use them against Mystra.

 

[Theglassman12]

is the 1-A stuff actually accepted to be in these guy’s pages or no? Because if not that’s being disengenuous as hell. As for spells happening by their will, Phenomena Intervention happens via their will too so that’s not really an argument, DnD spells aren’t faster than BB PI unless you can prove otherwise, so at best this is an inconclusive, either he can use BFR on someone (with proof required he’d start with it since saying “he should” isn’t an argument as a lot of characters don’t start with their best moves right off the bat due to how they’re written) or Amaterasu uses PI to win. The latter happening far more likely than the former given we’ve seen her use PI all the time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

is the 1-A stuff actually accepted to be in these guy’s pages or no? Because if not that’s being disengenuous as hell. As for spells happening by their will, Phenomena Intervention happens via their will too so that’s not really an argument, DnD spells aren’t faster than BB PI unless you can prove otherwise, so at best this is an inconclusive, either he can use BFR on someone (with proof required he’d start with it since saying “he should” isn’t an argument as a lot of characters don’t start with their best moves right off the bat due to how they’re written” or Amaterasu uses PI to win. The latter happening far more likely than the former given we’ve seen her use PI all the time.

Yeah, Glass. It's accepted.

Yeah, Glass, it is an argument, because the results here are instantaneous. We went through the thread going over that point. So it's not inconclusive.

I don't like being called a liar. I have no interest in these threads, Glass, and have little to gain by encouraging the public perception of Ao as some "OMG TURBO POWERFUL SMURF!!!!!!!". I'm here because people have consistently and repeatedly misrepresented D&D in the name of these wretched Top Strongest threads based on a misunderstanding of some shit I said in like, 2018.

It's accepted. It's on the page, just not explained to be as such. The activation may be equal in speed with PI (although earlier you said PI was passive), but the results are instantaneous, whereas the results of PI are not, hence the votes in favor of Ao.

 

[Theglassman12]

You haven’t explained or shown me how it’s instantaneous at all beyond saying it is, where I’ve actually given scans to prove my point, so no it’s not an argument.

If you don’t like me saying the arguments are disingenuous, then the ability and 1-A range should’ve been on the page in the first place, and again where the hell has PI been not instantaneous? Because you’re just making assumptions out the ass here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I offered to show scans, you didn't reply that you wanted them. If you wanted them, I'd have asked you to make that clear. At the very least, I'd figured I would get some benefit of the doubt.

I haven't made any assumptions. I've read the evidence you provided and explained what was true of Ao. Quite honestly, I thought it a little odd that you stuck with the claims of instantaneous usage when your scans explicitly went against that.

Legends and Lore (2nd Edition), page 4

This shows you that all deities have all spells at-will, no matter the spell.

Next time just ask when I offer it.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by “scans that show against it”? Because you’re not making it clear on what you mean by it going against what’s said.

Also again, where is the proof Ao would just instantly start with BFR and not any other spell?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So it would just boil down to if Ao can use BFR first (btw his range caps at Multi+ so if his BFR is accepted at 1-A that needs to change) or Amaterasu just PI GG on him. I’ll vote for inconclusive.

For Finger of Expulsion it's just warping someone into to the stomach of a 1-A, which destroys them if they don't have portal resistance.

Range wise it's Outerversal but it's with the single spell, but in-character I don't think Ao would use it considering how badly FR magic is viewed in-universe. Though I guess it's a last resort option, but for Ao he'd sooner bust a multiverse nuke than use Far Realm magic from my readings.

 

[Eseseso]

For Finger of Expulsion it's just warping someone into to the stomach of a 1-A, which destroys them if they don't have portal resistance.

Range wise it's Outerversal but it's with the single spell, but in-character I don't think Ao would use it considering how badly FR magic is viewed in-universe. Though I guess it's a last resort option, but for Ao he'd sooner bust a multiverse nuke than use Far Realm magic from my readings.

Then I'm voting BB since Amaterasu would be likelier to use her wincon.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 So the 1-A BFR would be a last resort for Ao if that’s the case? Then I’m switching my vote to Amaterasu then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean your scans show PI not happening instantly, just being instantly started. I pointed it out before, and while you argued against it, I don't think it properly dispels what the scans actually show.

I will reiterate that this is like asking whether he'd use a gun or not to defend himself. It is the best weapon in his arsenal for dealing with someone who is not his direct inferior (the deities and such). To the best of my knowledge, there is no reason for Ao to not use it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then I'm voting BB since Amaterasu would be likelier to use her wincon.

Ao can just seal it considering that's a more in-character action and he has a vastly higher count of scaling chains. But I haven't looked into Amaterasu that much.

So the 1-A BFR would be a last resort for Ao if that’s the case?

With prep or OoC he'd use it pretty quickly from my reading, but in-character he'd only use the Finger if he's hard pressed because it involves tapping into Far Realm magics, which very few being from the normal multiverse will do.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Ao can just seal it considering that's a more in-character action and he has a vastly higher count of scaling chains. But I haven't looked into Amaterasu that much.

Sealing is listed on the phenomenon intervention page, which means Ama resists it on infinite layers.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr._Bambu literally every other showing of PI being shown is done instantaneously, I’m showing you proof that the characters on these levels of power can use PI instantaneously or passively. That was the point of my scans to prove that’s something they’d start with.

That’s not an argument when we need some actual evidence that he’d use this 1-A spell in the first place, especially knowing DnD has countless amounts of spells so knowing what exactly he does start with can help.

@Qawsedf234 Amaterasu resists Phenomena Intervention, which included Sealing as one of the abilities, and it scales beyond infinite layers which has been accepted in the layered hax thread.

So yeah it’s basically a last resort spell if that’s the case then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For Finger of Expulsion it's just warping someone into to the stomach of a 1-A, which destroys them if they don't have portal resistance.

Range wise it's Outerversal but it's with the single spell, but in-character I don't think Ao would use it considering how badly FR magic is viewed in-universe. Though I guess it's a last resort option, but for Ao he'd sooner bust a multiverse nuke than use Far Realm magic from my readings.

I don't think that's true at all, though. Ao's there to maintain the multiverse (at least, the FR one- whether that would extend to Central Park in New York City is debateable, ig).

Finger of Expulsion wins him the fight, he'd know this. His continued existence is paramount for his role he must upkeep.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Huh, alright then.

Finger of Expulsion wins him the fight, he'd know this. His continued existence is paramount for his role he must upkeep.

Well it's why I said without knowledge I don't see him using it off the bat. The last time someone used FR energy it exploded the weave and caused an edition change. While Ao would use it to win he'd have to be put into that position first, which might be difficult in this fight if there's ways to kill him quickly.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Major use of the Far Realm, yeah, but Cerebrosis isn't an instant invitation for Cthulhu-mind-******* (acknowledging that the same area mentions Cerebral Blots, of course). It's not on-par with the risk of the Far Gate or whatever it is Tharizdun did.

 

[noninho]

Oh yeah, forgot I was OP until I got home
Vote count is being updated to 2-1-1

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Voting for Ao because of all of Bambu's points.

 

[noninho]

Ao's there to maintain the multiverse (at least, the FR one- whether that would extend to Central Park in New York City is debateable, ig).

This battle is in Minecraft's infinite Superflat world lol
Not that it changes the point, just pointing out

 

[Robo432343]

can we just wait for Ao's profile to not be ass anymore??
bro look at Ao's profile on all fiction battle wiki compared to this one