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[7-3-0] GRACE...this went a little bad (Xande vs Mikey)

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noninho said:
blatant and simple on the same tone as you:
he won't, Xande will kill him first.


basic logic and maths
the ritual says 15 damage*, his AP is based on the feat of a creature's claws, i calced his damage to say why the ritual would half the damage.
every aspect is on the page. you're just wrong.

*-> the translation:
  • Effect: This ritual creates an Energy screen who covers the user's entire body and absorbs kinectic energy. [...] Alternatively, this ritual can be used as an Reaction when damage is dealt, making the user receive a 15 Resistance to only this damage.
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Even with a higher AP, he would need his hax to hurt Mikey, but by then when this guy gets close, the fight would be over and he would be incapacitated, have his arm broken or be paralysed, Xan's abilities will take a minute or a couple to kill Mikey off, Mikey would take seconds to finish Xan especially since the distances are close, Mikey is just too strong via pressure points
noninho said:
nope. first move of mikey's is to kick (maybe punch as he's already on that Dark Impulse state).
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No it isn't ? He's in close range ?! Takemichi was in close range with Mikey dark impulses and Mikey's first thing was to break his arm, same would happen here
noninho said:
cool, ignore the bat damage like Mikey's durability is getting negated all the time here!

likely is not enough here, and the effects of the duraneg are reaching Mikey immediately via being something he's not used to!
see, his pain tolerance came from being highly trained in martial arts (maybe also from the fact he's kind of a psycho), but he never took anything like a Knowledge or Blood damage hitting right through all his defenses.
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Yes it's getting negated but Mikey is finishing this fight quickly

How is it not enough, Mikey literally paralysed a person twice the size of Xande in a matter of seconds ? Mikey would end this quickly, breaking his arm, throwing him to the floor, although bleeding and weakened he would make quick work from his current positon, or at the very least would paralyse Xan resulting in a win before he dies
noninho said:
he won't my g, one minute is also much time for Xande, remember he's not just standing still.
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He's not but he has to touch Mikey, and for that he has to get within less then a metre, Mikey's LS would help Mikey to incapacitate him and keep him close where Mikey would finish him, simple as that.
noninho said:
Mikey's usual IC does not grab people, he tries to kill via one kick.
not killing with one kick is kinda surprising for this guy, my g, remember that.
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This is just incorrect though, Mikey in dark impulses is either starting out with breaking their arm or kicking them (to the floor) where he mounts them and beats them to death, Xan has nothing to counter this since his LS isn't high enough to break from Mikey's grip.
noninho said:
you can't be saying that lmfao
there was a guy who just agreed to you saying less than 10 words who's listed as an verse supporter, you're being hypocrite here to say this just for a guy who's not on your side.
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If you seen the past threads you would agree zetsu is some what biased
noninho said:
clearly biased (which is ok) and all the sudden speed is making the match unfair and unlikeable for you
and you're pointing out someone's bad and biased? that's not cool, mate.
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uhm what
XxZetsuxX said:
Not to the point of comparing a deliquent to a war guy (Unrelated to this thread sorry)
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I hate this argument, literally a garbage argument. I can't take you seriously if you say shit like this bruh
 
DekuGlazer said:
Lets start a challenge. If anybody can find a @XxZetsuxX comment voting for Mikey i will cashapp this entire thread $100.
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Ah, I'm just simply voting on the character who obviously wins that's all

Which is what you should be doing, But no

You guys just literally want Mikey to win everything

You guys really think characters who fight on wars filled with magic and monsters/demons/dragons somehow loses to a deliquent who fights a bunch of deliquents who have no training? Are you for real? (Unrelated to the thread again i'm sorry)
 
This thread is starting to get a bit sus...
Though yes he does have something to counter LS. Legit him getting grabbed is the best case scenario since he can use as many rituals as he wants in that range.
 
I came back to this match because I was curious about it but a more interesting opponent for this character same verse would have been Nana Kaneda. Who has better hax to match up with this fight

Supernatural Intuition
According to the rules Mikey has prior knowledge of his opponent being a sorcerer. This would make him have to more cautious, and focused during the fight. Mikey has a rather unique and fairly keen sense of intuition that manifests in differing somewhat supernatural ways. Upon his first encounter with Takemichi, he was somehow able to tell that he was not a normal middle schooler, although he couldn't fully understand the true extent of Takemichi's nature, and remained somewhat suspicious about who and what he was and eventually figured it out, due to being capable of somewhat predict future events. Mikey correctly deduced Draken was being ambushed after being led astray on the other side of town and still made it in time. Mikey also deduced that Mitsuya was going to do something on Christmas night and even figured out his location, saving his friends from a predicament. He claims that his big brother and Baji's souls guided him to where Mitsuya was.

Now how does this apply to a fight? If Mikey has awareness he is about to fight a sorcerer he would be cautious about every move he makes and try to end the fight as quickly as possible. Mikey has feats knowing if a character is strong or weak on appearance, since he "likes strong guys" to join his gang and has never made a bad recruiting choice. He would be able to recognize Xande is weaker than him physically and know he can put him down with physical strength, but still with caution.

What I think likely happens:
Xande will attempt to use Deadly Speed , which will cause to Mikey will use reactive power from the start, break both of Xande's arms to remove his ability to use his bats then proceed to kill him. Now, the full breakdown of more ways Mikey can win.

Speed:
This was said for Xande's speed:

"Deadly Speed is instant and allows Xande to overwhelm targets he had difficulty tagging beforehand. Even if Mikey has the edge speed wise, Xande still has overwhelming mobility in the form of his shoes, Deadly Speed and Skateboard."

My response:
Speed is equalized and if the speed starts equalized and Xande use's Deadly speed then Mikey's reactive Power will boost Mikey's speed every time Xande's grows since is a reactory ability and negates equalized speed. Deadly Speed I assume is limited due to what his weakness states "stronger rituals take a toll on the user's mind and overusing them may cause insanity". I havent read the story but Time manipulation is a strong power so I'm assuming this is apart of that weakness, while Mikey's Reactive Power is unlimited and will just keep reacting to Deadly Speed, while being the better skilled offensive fighter be would land more attacks in CQC as well as break the arms of Xande with disarticularticilation/luxation. He cant use his bat if his arms are broken

Another response I seen:
I don't fully get what you mean with this. Deadly Speed makes Xande faster by accelerating him in time, that's it. If Xande is faster than Mikey, he would likely be able to get a hit in, and if he uses Decadence, that's 2 layers of duraneg damage which would definitely oneshot.

My response:
Xande cannot start faster than Mikey when the speed is equalized. Only after the match starts can amplifiers negate equalized speed. Also Mikey has far faster travel I think cannot be equalized(if it can I have more proof). Making the next point you made invalid.

This was said for AP
Xande's Shield, Blood Armor and Noise Screen all scale to the 418 feat,
also, i gotta say: it upscales to that feat, as that zombie won't do 15 damage points that easily (i'm reading the page rn and his claws are 2d6+5. the mean value for a d6 is 3.5. fraction values are actually rounded down usually, so (2*3)+5, meaning 11 is the what he may have caused there), so not even a Xande usual hit. So my mistake was to say it would ignore the damage entirely, it'd just cut the AP gap to 1,3x, and the shield((s) the skate one and the Sangue armor) would reduce it even more.

My Response:
Was this even accepted and reviewed on the site? You tagged a site not affiliated with Wiki to make his AP higher when the AP for this site is 418kj. Unless you can tag the CRT this was discussed and accepted, it cant be used. The same reason we can't use Mikey AP being half since the 1 megajoule feat was done on a kick he did while having bad balance = not full power.


Another response:
he won't survive long with the duraneg attacks Xande can use to make profit outta acc. develop., because it takes a time Xande won't allow him to have via...again, attacks that duraneg and lowballing his damage all the time with a buncha stuff.

My Response:
Xande has no response to consistent response to Mikey's reactive power and you cannot assume he will land more attacks than Mikey when he is less skilled and mikey can break both of his arms at once making him using the this entire premise invalid.



"Decadence is a Death ritual that causes rapid decay, and Xande can infuse his bat swings with it, meaning his bat will be dealing 2 layers of Duraneg damage on hit.

-He still has to land it on someone more naturally skilled than him.
Speed is
He would not know about Noise Screen, Blood Armor or Chaotic Polarization though since Mikey never prepares for fights for studies opponents but these won't help keep Mikey from constantly landing hits with the AP advantage since Xande is a glass canon with less durability it wont take much to put him down when Mikey only attacks pressure points.

He would be able to hurt and even kill Mikey with the extra damage, seen as it also negates durability.

Yes , he has to hit him enough times for this, and with his level of skill I dont see happening.

I vote Mikey for my above reasons.
 
Redite250 said:
This thread is starting to get a bit sus...
Though yes he does have something to counter LS. Legit him getting grabbed is the best case scenario since he can use as many rituals as he wants in that range.
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This is false as he would have his arms broken due to mikey's supernatural intuition knowing he is carrying a bat and likely needs it for sorcery. He can easily break his arms to keep him from using his weapons
 
DekuGlazer said:
I came back to this match because I was curious about it but a more interesting opponent for this character same verse would have been Nana Kaneda. Who has better hax to match up with this fight
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Good points.

Xande only really has to land a single hit. Decadence has made people puke out their own organs before. Tear Flesh can turn beings into puddles of blood and flesh in a couple turns. Besides idc how tough you are, you're not gonna be able to fight well when under the effect of these rituals, Xande has used this on creatures with Pain Tolerance before and even they were shaken.

Sure Mikey can break Xande's arms, but he would need to get past the Blood Armor, Noise Screen, and his living shield which is gonna parry any attack.
 
DekuGlazer said:
mikey's supernatural intuition knowing he is carrying a bat and likely needs it for sorcery
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He needs the Bat only for the ritual that...buffs the Bat with duranegging effects.
Also via that argument, ain't Mikey trying to take the Bat outta him first??

DekuGlazer said:
He would be able to recognize Xande is weaker than him physically and know he can put him down with physical strength, but still with caution.
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Not feasible.
How do you pin someone down with caution?
Also, why you're saying he'll just do it because yes when there's the shield telling Xande he'll be attacked and not only that helping also on his defense, but 2 other rituals and one who makes him outspeed Mikey by a little on the start of the fight?

DekuGlazer said:
Was this even accepted and reviewed on the site?
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Yes. The ritual is on the profile, and I got an official description for that translated.
DekuGlazer said:
You tagged a site not affiliated with Wiki to make his AP higher when the AP for this site is 418kj.
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Not at all, I'm not upping his AP here.
I'm talking about how via calculations LOGICALLY doable with numbers the official source (the rulebook) how much one of his rituals help his Durability.
DekuGlazer said:
The same reason we can't use Mikey AP being half since the 1 megajoule feat was done on a kick he did while having bad balance = not full power.
Click to expand...
So I calced exactly how much his ritual would deffend him from Mikey's AP and you're saying Mikey's AP is incorrect? Than that's not on me, cuz I'm using what's calculated my g.

DekuGlazer said:
Xande has no response to consistent response to Mikey's reactive power and you cannot assume he will land more attacks than Mikey when he is less skilled and mikey can break both of his arms at once making him using the this entire premise invalid.
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Remember that while his Reactive Power is applying, Xande's not just an statue but it's literally outspeeding him
Also Xande may not be as skilled in martial arts but he knows how to fight too, you can't just say it'll be simple because it'll be simple, mate.

DekuGlazer said:
-He still has to land it on someone more naturally skilled than him.
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That's fair but remember, once again, Xande's outspeeding him and is also skilled

DekuGlazer said:
He would not know about Noise Screen, Blood Armor or Chaotic Polarization though since Mikey never prepares for fights for studies opponents but these won't help keep Mikey from constantly landing hits with the AP advantage
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Ahm what?
They will because that's what they do, mate
Not only defenses but helps for Xande to dodge too

DekuGlazer said:
since Xande is a glass canon with less durability it wont take much to put him down when Mikey only attacks pressure points.
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There are two misunderstandings here:
-Xande is no glass Cannon here. Xande has plenty of defenses and attacks that do much on the Duranegging.
-We talked a lot on how Mikey would start this battle, but clearly It is not on pressure points.
He may start by his kick, or punch because of his Dark Impulse thing
Seeing that it doesn't work, he may try to pin Xande down (but will miss because Xande's still outspeeding)
THEN he'd try pressure point attacks
And I'm not assuming that, that's exactly what's being stated on this thread, y'know

DekuGlazer said:
I vote Mikey for my above reasons
Click to expand...
Will be adding your vote on a minute
 
Alright I’m going to focus on speed here.

Speed is equalized right? And are we aware that Mikey’s signature kicks are far faster than his regular attacks?

Let’s start with that.
 
noninho said:
We spoke a lot on how Xande's defenses are hard to bypass and how he has the move speed advantage for now
So...
Click to expand...
I told everyone I am specifically talking about speed at the moment. So this movement speed advantage is from his Skateboard right? What does that look like.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
So this movement speed advantage is from his Skateboard right?
Click to expand...
It's from a ritual and I've described how it works earlier
His Skateboard is actually being used as one of his defenses who I'm arguing is enough for xande to not get hit (and if he is, less badly) from Mikey's moves
 
noninho said:
here's the thing:


1093/418,69 = 2,6105x AP advantage for Mikey is not that big of a deal.
ALSO you guys gotta remember Xande's Noise Screen (imma call NS) that would make him immune to one hit per time, and it's a pretty fast ritual...lemme explain something:
turns in Ordem are divided on Action (attack, do "major" rituals, do "major" actions), Bonus Action (do "minor" rituals, "minor" actions and trigger some abilities), Movement Action (walk, lie down, get up, etc) and Free Action (talk, triggering a handful abilities may be possible here), one of each per turn.
NS can be used in Action (works a bit different) or after the opponent declares his Action being attack and how, as what is called Reaction.
Meaning that if we would adapt to the TTRPG system, Mikey's player says "i'll do the roundhouse kick" and Xande's player says "i'll use my reaction to activate TS, and not take the damage" (of course i'm not saying this battle system is the same of a TTRPG, just explaining how and why it would work).
How many times can he do that? A ton. a ton of times.
Also, Mikey's used to facing someone he just kicks, drops either dead or passed out, and changes the opponent, meaning at least 7x the AP gap according to this wiki...so Him being able to sometimes hit Xande and not just drop him dead will give Xande some opportunity windows here (i'll derail about it in a bit)
one more also: Xande's skateboard's reinforced (see the metalic stuff on the outside of the shape?) to be a shield, but not only that, it has some Conhecimento marks! This gave him a chaotic conscience that tells Xande when, how and where he's getting hit giving a resistance to some damage (like...it's a shield) and making a whole lot easier to dodge...
last also: speaking of dodge, Student Deadly Speed (i'll call VM for Velocidade Mortal, the portuguese name of it) gives him another Action per turn, which here means he's faster to react and to attack.

this one is pretty simple: Xande is an Occultist with the sub-class Lâmina Paranormal, who can recover Effort Points (EP) with every ritual used, making him able to use even more rituals!
Also, most of the damage Xande's doing, is duranegging via...that's what ritual's do! Sangue element acts on itself on some level while hurting the opponent and Knowledge element hurts your...existence (yeah, imagine the truths of how the universe actually works being carved into your skin and existence while getting beaten)
and when Mikey's not hitting the TS, remember the skateboard-shield-chaotically-alive.

Actually you better hope that the main use of that (like being able to toss away his problematic bat (i'll talk more about it in a bit)) is not done here
Because Tear Flesh is a ritual that not only also duranegs, but hurts way more than the bat and can be used while preserving his distance (which he'll do to get his bat back or keep it this way if Mikey decides to toss him a bit far)


Ok, speaking a bit more on how the fight will go:
first, let's read VM:
"This ritual accelerates the user temporally, like the rest of the world beside him moves in slow motion, guaranteeing twice as much actions in a combat."
It's pretty usual for Death element rituals to mess up with time (his Time Manip and Healing is related to that), but now we're seeing a pretty hard to hit fella!
Xande won't attack first, that's what Mikey do and as i said before, won't work because TS.
Xande'll cast his Student (it's the only translation for the word "Discente", i know it's lame) Curse Weapon with Knowledge and hit Mikey, and this'll hurt a ton, because we have Duraneg and Xande using a pair of sunglasses that tells the weak parts of Mikey in each moment and VM.
If Mikey punches (like for some reason he does that when he's on Dark Impulse) or kicks, TS.
If Mikey tries to push or toss Xande away, TS.
If for any reason Xande doesn't TS, he can dodge or deffend via Alive-Skate-Shield+VM.
If Xande gets tossed, he can use a multitude of rituals, but the first one that crosses my mind is Tear Flesh, which duranegs, hurts a f*** ton and leaves supernatural hemorrages on the victim

My boy Xande, i'm glad to say, is able to end this guy!
Xande FRA, i'll now count the 2 votes for him too
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At this point I'm 100% convinced no-one read my post. Some of it was more discussed later but some explanations were here
 
noninho said:
It's from a ritual and I've described how it works earlier
His Skateboard is actually being used as one of his defenses who I'm arguing is enough for xande to not get hit (and if he is, less badly) from Mikey's moves
Click to expand...

Alright while we are waiting for the Mikey thread to be over. Are there any Xander fights I can see?

noninho said:
1093/418,69 = 2,6105x AP advantage for Mikey is not that big of a deal.
ALSO you guys gotta remember Xande's Noise Screen (imma call NS) that would make him immune to one hit per time, and it's a pretty fast ritual...lemme explain something:
turns in Ordem are divided on Action (attack, do "major" rituals, do "major" actions), Bonus Action (do "minor" rituals, "minor" actions and trigger some abilities), Movement Action (walk, lie down, get up, etc) and Free Action (talk, triggering a handful abilities may be possible here), one of each per turn.
NS can be used in Action (works a bit different) or after the opponent declares his Action being attack and how, as what is called Reaction.
Meaning that if we would adapt to the TTRPG system, Mikey's player says "i'll do the roundhouse kick" and Xande's player says "i'll use my reaction to activate TS, and not take the damage" (of course i'm not saying this battle system is the same of a TTRPG, just explaining how and why it would work).
How many times can he do that? A ton. a ton of times.
Also, Mikey's used to facing someone he just kicks, drops either dead or passed out, and changes the opponent, meaning at least 7x the AP gap according to this wiki...so Him being able to sometimes hit Xande and not just drop him dead will give Xande some opportunity windows here (i'll derail about it in a bit)
one more also: Xande's skateboard's reinforced (see the metalic stuff on the outside of the shape?) to be a shield, but not only that, it has some Conhecimento marks! This gave him a chaotic conscience that tells Xande when, how and where he's getting hit giving a resistance to some damage (like...it's a shield) and making a whole lot easier to dodge...
last also: speaking of dodge, Student Deadly Speed (i'll call VM for Velocidade Mortal, the portuguese name of it) gives him another Action per turn, which here means he's faster to react and to attack.
Click to expand...
Game mechanics ❌.


Hold on a lot of the rest of what you’re saying is Game Mechanics. And WTF is TS.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Alright while we are waiting for the Mikey thread to be over. Are there any Xander fights I can see?
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Nah, Xande is pretty new. Any suggestions?

This is Xande with DS active
It's all in portuguese though so I'll try to give some context: Xande is chasing an alien through a cornfield, he leaves all his friends in the dust as he's the only one who can catch up. The Alien is also using all its moves to flee, Xande wouldn't be able to grab him without DS, this is also before Xande gets his Lepid Shoes which boost his movement speed even more. He can also skate, which he has done in the middle of combat before
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Are there any Xander fights I can see?
Click to expand...
Xande*
You mean in his series or here on the site?
Arnoldstone18 said:
Game mechanics ❌.



Hold on a lot of the rest of what you’re saying is Game Mechanics. And WTF is TS.
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Must ask that you read again with a bit more attention, as I explained why I'm talking about game mechanics and how do they translate here.
My bad, i should be saying NS for Noise Screen, not TS (I think I put the T there because my initial idea for this post was to call things by their portuguese name, which would be Tela de Ruído. Technically I'm saying Tela Screen lmao)
 
noninho said:
You mean in his series or here on the site?
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His series. Like canon fights and any cutscenes.

noninho said:
Must ask that you read again with a bit more attention, as I explained why I'm talking about game mechanics and how do they translate here.
My bad, i should be saying NS for Noise Screen, not TS (I think I put the T there because my initial idea for this post was to call things by their portuguese name, which would be Tela de Ruído. Technically I'm saying Tela Screen lmao)
Click to expand...

I know why you’re talking about game mechanics but it’s still not making me understand how things would play out in a regular combat scenario. I am taking notes of the abilities tho so don’t worry.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
His series. Like canon fights and any cutscenes.
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Lemme check some things on youtube, if people got videos only for the fights
Cuz in the series he's in, each episode is 3~5 hours long

Arnoldstone18 said:
I know why you’re talking about game mechanics but it’s still not making me understand how things would play out in a regular combat scenario.
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Bring me what you didn't understand and if it's still something that plays into Xande's wincons here (remember there has been a lot of discuss after that), imma explain better

Arnoldstone18 said:
I am taking notes of the abilities tho so don’t worry.
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Gotta say: I think this is super cool.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
His series. Like canon fights and any cutscenes
Click to expand...

Sadly most of Xande's fights are like an hour long and they're all in portuguese with little to no visual cues to explain exactly what's happening, with it all being mostly narration. Best I can do is timestamp it and give some context
 
Redite250 said:
Sadly most of Xande's fights are like an hour long and they're all in portuguese with little to no visual cues to explain exactly what's happening, with it all being mostly narration. Best I can do is timestamp it and give some context
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Oh, you can timestamp? That'd be better and I'd appreciate
 
After reading this wntire thread...

90% of votes for Mikey seen to be people just ignorig ehat was pointed out for Xande before... like saying Mikey would tank 2 layes of dura neg... what just don't make sense

Not to mention a lot of Xande hax he just need to enter in contact with his oponent so even hittin Xande directly he still in disavantage

Voting Xande and also saying that 90% of Mikey points are sus

Speed: Xando start with the advantage but yes, eventually Mikey can bypass that, but hax make this battle not take long

AP: I mean... dura neg is above any AP, have You ever saw a sans battle? Lol

Dura:2 layers of defense with blood armour and skate, not to mention Xando ilusions messig with Mikey perception

Also would like to ask, has Mikey ever suffered fatal injures? Didn't saw anything about pain tolerance or anything like that on his profile to say "he would be able to witstand that" when he is having 2 layers of dura negation hitting him and a have his skin and organs full of lacerstions from a single ritual

Really can't see how 90% of mikey votes makes sense when they are just ignoring the characters stats and arguments to say "Mikey is superior beacuse yes"

To be fair, I can see Xando leaving this with a broken arm or somethig, maybe even without a arm

Any way, voting Xando
 
There is an ability thread going on about Mikey and most of the thread seems acccepted (although not sure) so i would like to debate this topic after that thread gets concluded tbh.
 
Using these characters in vsmatches are quite difficult.

You guys need to work on improving the profiles with scans.



Anyway,

Has Xande used Blood Armour, Shield and NS at the same time?

Mikey starts with a signature kick in almost all his fights. His signature kicks at this point in time are far faster than his regular attacks, and they are capable of blitzing those comparable to him. These kicks are often aimed for the head. Doesn't this mean than Mikey is landing his kick before Xander could land his hits or attacks? And since these attacks are landed on the head, wouldn't that disorient him before he does anything else?


JustANormalLemon said:
90% of votes for Mikey seen to be people just ignorig ehat was pointed out for Xande before... like saying Mikey would tank 2 layes of dura neg... what just don't make sense
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The layers don’t make the dura neg better. It’s not like Mikey has power nullification. And isn’t it based on touch?
 
I don't know why you guys won't just wait until Mikey ability thread finishes. It will just invalidate the votes and make everybody have to rewrite nee reasonings
 
Dinozxd said:
There is an ability thread going on about Mikey and most of the thread seems acccepted (although not sure) so i would like to debate this topic after that thread gets concluded tbh.
Click to expand...
DekuGlazer said:
I don't know why you guys won't just wait until Mikey ability thread finishes. It will just invalidate the votes and make everybody have to rewrite nee reasonings
Click to expand...
Tbf the guy just FRAd, all what he said, I had said before.
 
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