From what I recall, it was Merus' 'power' in the sense that he gained Merus' Ultra Instinct, which Goku specifically stated wasn't trained to withstand the technique. This would make sense as Moro had never shown to also copy the level of power a character had, instead, just their abilities which he could use in unison to his own abilities. It should still be Moro's own power, given that in Whis' statement, they claim that It's Moro's swollen energy. Not Merus' swolen energy which would've suggested it was Merus' power, not Moro's (Even though if Moro absorbed Merus' power, I do believe it should scale to Moro after copying Merus' abilities). I would also like to note (This part isn't specifically targeted towards you), that I don't believe Moro's detonation scales to his full Destructive Capacity. But that wouldn't change much anyways.
Yeah, but Whis blatantly states that it was the earth that was containing the angel powers of Merus. Moro himself doesn't scale to the full power of Merus, which is shown in the manga.
he scales to it in planet form, but he also does in UI form, he just couldn't control that power.
What happened to this?
Again, can't 'power' in this context just be referring to Merus' abilities? Energy/Chi doesn't necessarily need to mean the same thing as power. We can agree that Ultra Instinct was a power that Merus possessed, correct? And Goku stated that Moro's body wasn't trained to handle Ultra Instinct like Merus' body was. So I think it's just as fine to interpret it as Ultra Instinct (Merus' ability which is referred to as 'power') is causing his energy to bloat (As stated by Whis), which will result in great destruction. There could be context I'm missing, but Moro has NEVER shown to copy the raw power/energy of his targets before. So why would he randomly gain Merus' raw power in addition to all of his abilities for no reason? I think power is really referring to Merus' abilities in this case. Not their energy.
bro, google translate gotchu fam.
2) Characters have always used 宇宙 (uchuu) when talking about the universe, and never 銀河ごと (ginga-goto):
3) Krillin didn't mean it as "every galaxy":
It could, but it's pretty blatantly referring to the strength of Merus's angel abilities, rather than just some hax.
Yes, that's what I was referring to. The 'strength' of Merus' abilities, or in this case Ultra Instinct, was causing his energy to bloat. Goku stated that Moro's body wasn't trained to maintain Ultra Instinct, which was causing his energy to bloat which would eventually detonate. From what I've seen, it wasn't Merus' raw power that was going to destroy the Galaxy. It was Moro's raw power that was going to destroy the Galaxy, as a result of his body not being able to handle Ultra Instinct. So the attack should count as his own, rather than Merus' energy.
Exactly, Moro couldn't handle the power of ultra instinct, meaning that Moro himself doesn't scale to Merus's ultra instinct abilities, so the explosion thing doesn't work for him.
I think I can adress some of these points. First, looking back at it, destroying every Galaxy might not be Universal anyways. From what I recall, isn't there other stuff that the Universe is made of that would need to be destroyed for it to count as Universal (I've also heard it's being debated if Space-Time is relative and thus the point of separating Universal and Universal+ is pointless). Destroying every Galaxy would just be like high Multi-Galaxy level, would it not? If this is the case, Whis' statement of destroying every Galaxy can be taken into consideration as some aspects of the Universe will still remain.
He should scale to it while he is using Ultra Instinct. His body couldn't handle the drawbacks/strain of that level of mastery over UI. However, that doesn't mean he shouldn't scale. That would be the equivalent of saying Goku doesn't scale to his Ultra Instinct technique in the Tournament of Power because it strains him to the point it only lasts for a short period of time. It was still Moro's own power that was going to destroy the Galaxy, not Merus' power. Merus' level of Ultra Instinct only caused his body to bloat. Why would he not scale if he could still use the power to its fullest extent, even if it is destroying his body? He was still able to use Ultra Instinct to its full power which allowed him to be equal with Ultra Instinct Goku, and it was his energy that was going to destroy the Galaxy, or Galaxies, not Merus' power.
For what it's worth, Earth is stated to be at the edge of Universe 7:
Reading the official English translation of these panels, Krillin said that Yamcha's idea (to leave the planet and use the Super Dragon Balls to fix everything) won't work because when Moro explodes, "the whole galaxy" (putting emphasis on this part since the original Japanese text says この銀河/“this galaxy”, or maybe "these galaxies" since Japanese doesn't have plurals, but it's not a way of saying "every galaxy") goes down with him, and that's when Tien asks "So even the Dragon Balls in space will be dust?"While it's also true that even one Dragon Ball being destroyed would result in the others being useless. The scan I initially used when making this thread specifically specifies that several Super Dragon Balls would be destroyed by Moro's blast, not by one being destroyed which causes the others to be useless:
"But Tenshinhan still responds as if the destruction of 'this galaxy' will automatically mean the destruction of the DB's in space."
Based on that wording, Tien responds as if the destruction would mean the immediate destruction of numerous Super Dragon Balls. Not just one. One Super Dragon Ball being in the Milky Way? Sure, but numerous? I find that to be unlikely, if not impossible.
No problem. I've heard about the problems vs wiki has with Dragon Ball on other platforms. Don't want to give a bad impression. Especially since I do like this site, despite disagreeing with a fair share of it. I debate quite frequently off of the site, and I'll say this; I may come off as rude sometimes, but I never mean to. I'm just blunt. I want to put that out there in case (As I've run into people thinking I'm trying to be rude when it's not the case).
Except, I don't believe Earth is at the edge of Universe 7. I believe they're at the edge of Outerspace. If you don't know what I'm referring to. Dragon Ball's Macrocosm is consistent of at least 2 separate Space-Time Continuum's. One being 'The Universe', which according to Daizenshuu is where Goku lives and all of the stories in the series take place (In DBZ):
I'll get into this point specifically, but it requires me to address your last point to answer the question:
Oh, I'm well aware of that. I believe you've misinterpreted my argument. I was never saying that Moro's explosion would destroy all of the Super Dragon Balls. But rather several of the 7. As the initial scan states it will destroy the Super Dragon Balls plural, not a single one. Meaning it can very well mean 2-6 as opposed to just one. Seeing as they scatter across Universe 6 and 7, several can be in Universe 7 at a time. Thus my argument is that Moro would destroy several Dragon Balls which are VERY unlikely to be in the Milky Way. More likely, they're scattered across Universe 7. Thus why I see this feat to be more than Galactic regardless. As the chance of several Super Dragon Balls is far too unlikely. It would be safter to assume that Moro's destroying several Galaxies with his explosion thus destroying several Super Dragon Balls than it would to assume that there's randomly 2-6 Super Dragon Balls in the Milky Way. Can we agree on that?
The DBS Manga and Anime are separated into their own profiles:
dbs anime /= dbs manga scaling
I kinda disagree with this cause it's mainly based on translation. As well as that, if there is going to be a 3A Moro, it should be in a separate key like a self destruct key cause his normal state, even with ultra instinct, shouldn't scale to it.
Why is that your immediate decision? People can still express their viewpoint.
First of all, thank you for responding to me in a constructive manner. I feel like whenever I do anything Dragon Ball-related, people either ignore me or get up in arms over what I say.
Anyway, I'll go over your arguments:
For what it's worth, Earth is stated to be at the edge of Universe 7:
So, considering inverse square law, the energy yield would surely be high enough to reach 3-A, no?
As for the Universal vs Universal+ thing, it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, but TL;DR: while we do treat individual universes as Low 2-C objects by default, feats involving universal destruction do not and should not necessarily reach that tier because more often than not, "destroying the universe" just means performing an attack (for instance, an explosion) that spreads out across all of space and destroys all of the planets, stars, galaxies, etc. that are contained within the universe. Only when time is explicitly affected as well (whether it's shown to us in the feat itself or informed by statements) do we count that as Low 2-C, and even then, it only counts if all of time in that universe is affected - i.e., it destroys everything that was, is, and will be, as opposed to just everything that is at the moment of the destruction.
Reading the official English translation of these panels, Krillin said that Yamcha's idea (to leave the planet and use the Super Dragon Balls to fix everything) won't work because when Moro explodes, "the whole galaxy" (putting emphasis on this part since the original Japanese text says この銀河/“this galaxy”, or maybe "these galaxies" since Japanese doesn't have plurals, but it's not a way of saying "every galaxy") goes down with him, and that's when Tien asks "So even the Dragon Balls in space will be dust?"
The thing is, I don't think that any of these people could have known that any of the Super Dragon Balls were in the Milky Way at that moment. I know that the Super Dragon Radar is a thing and that it should be able to tell them if there are any Super Dragon Balls in the galaxy, but judging by how the scene went, it seemed to me that they hadn't checked the Dragon Radar yet and were only going to do so to try and reverse all the damage that Moro caused. If you have points against this, I'd love to hear them.
One last thing, and I'm sure that this isn't what you meant, but it's established that the Super Dragon Balls disperse throughout Universe 7 and Universe 6 after being used. This means that if one took everything liberally to claim that Moro somehow would have destroyed all of the Dragon Balls, they're likely to subsequently argue that UI Moro is 2-C, and I don't think I need to explain why that's dumb. Again, I'm not saying that I think you believe this, but I still see this as an important detail to mention.
First of all, Jaco doesn't say that there isn't a center, he just says that it's not possible to find it in a certain amount of time due to how ridiculously big the universe is.
The "infinitely expanding" Universe statements... Which come from the Daizenshuu too.
But the daizenshu doesn't ...even say it?
wdym?
Exactly, and within an infinite sized structure it is quite literally not possible to have place a center as well. And he never said "in a certain amount of time" he was just speaking generally as far as we know. Which is why he suggests asking Zuno if he would know of a center, although they never end up actually finding it. Even if we take Jaco's statement out of the picture, we would then need to look into bulma's validity, as i stated earlier. How does bulma know shes on the edge? Is she able to see the the universe or even outside of her own planet? If so how far? I believe this statement only means as far as bulma can see, earth is the end of the universe, which means literally nothing unless this is an absolute fact.
Daizenshu doesn't say anything about endlessly expanding
First of all, he's not saying that at all. It literally just says that the universe is ridiculously big, which is why there's no point in searching for a center. It's not because one doesn't exist.
Firstly he says its due to the size specifically that it is impossible for a center to be located, yes. Which is consistent with the way an infinite sized body should work.
Oh...mb then.
