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3-A Moro upgrade

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Anyway, yeah. I disagree with this upgrade, but we could use a bit more staff input. Maybe we can start with the three thread moderators who already gave their two cents? New points have been brought up since they commented here, so I don't think it would hurt to contact them again.
 
I only agreed with 3-A if the scan was accurate. If "entire galaxy" is more appropriate in this context, then yeah I'd disagree with the upgrade.
 
I’m neutral, but I want to point out that it wasn’t moro’s energy, primarily. It’s more of the angel power that Métis had that Moro can’t control. Moro doesn’t really scale to that
 
I’m neutral, but I want to point out that it wasn’t moro’s energy, primarily. It’s more of the angel power that Métis had that Moro can’t control. Moro doesn’t really scale to that
From what I recall, it was Merus' 'power' in the sense that he gained Merus' Ultra Instinct, which Goku specifically stated wasn't trained to withstand the technique. This would make sense as Moro had never shown to also copy the level of power a character had, instead, just their abilities which he could use in unison to his own abilities. It should still be Moro's own power, given that in Whis' statement, they claim that It's Moro's swollen energy. Not Merus' swolen energy which would've suggested it was Merus' power, not Moro's (Even though if Moro absorbed Merus' power, I do believe it should scale to Moro after copying Merus' abilities). I would also like to note (This part isn't specifically targeted towards you), that I don't believe Moro's detonation scales to his full Destructive Capacity. But that wouldn't change much anyways.
 
From what I recall, it was Merus' 'power' in the sense that he gained Merus' Ultra Instinct, which Goku specifically stated wasn't trained to withstand the technique. This would make sense as Moro had never shown to also copy the level of power a character had, instead, just their abilities which he could use in unison to his own abilities. It should still be Moro's own power, given that in Whis' statement, they claim that It's Moro's swollen energy. Not Merus' swolen energy which would've suggested it was Merus' power, not Moro's (Even though if Moro absorbed Merus' power, I do believe it should scale to Moro after copying Merus' abilities). I would also like to note (This part isn't specifically targeted towards you), that I don't believe Moro's detonation scales to his full Destructive Capacity. But that wouldn't change much anyways.
Yeah, but Whis blatantly states that it was the earth that was containing the angel powers of Merus. Moro himself doesn't scale to the full power of Merus, which is shown in the manga.
 
Yeah, but Whis blatantly states that it was the earth that was containing the angel powers of Merus. Moro himself doesn't scale to the full power of Merus, which is shown in the manga
he scales to it in planet form, but he also does in UI form, he just couldn't control that power.
 
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Yeah, but Whis blatantly states that it was the earth that was containing the angel powers of Merus. Moro himself doesn't scale to the full power of Merus, which is shown in the manga.
Again, can't 'power' in this context just be referring to Merus' abilities? Energy/Chi doesn't necessarily need to mean the same thing as power. We can agree that Ultra Instinct was a power that Merus possessed, correct? And Goku stated that Moro's body wasn't trained to handle Ultra Instinct like Merus' body was. So I think it's just as fine to interpret it as Ultra Instinct (Merus' ability which is referred to as 'power') is causing his energy to bloat (As stated by Whis), which will result in great destruction. There could be context I'm missing, but Moro has NEVER shown to copy the raw power/energy of his targets before. So why would he randomly gain Merus' raw power in addition to all of his abilities for no reason? I think power is really referring to Merus' abilities in this case. Not their energy.
 
I really, really don't think you should use Google Translate - or any form of machine translation at all. They are often very inaccurate compared to human translators and they are just widely hated in general when it comes to trying to translate stuff seriously. In fact, I'm pretty sure that we even discourage the use of machine translators - because why else would we have a translations request thread in the first place if you could just get a machine to do it for you at any time?




I thought more staff or knowledgeable members would come to provide input here and settle the matter, but I guess that didn't happen, so... unless there's some overriding reason to close it, I think that we should keep it open until we have more opinions from people that we can trust.

Anyway, my stance on this hasn't changed. I still think that context from other pieces of dialogue and how the series itself generally does things makes it more likely that Moro's self-destruction threatened one galaxy, and I don't see how dictionary definitions or vague statements about saving the universe can make any difference here.

If anyone needs a recap, here are the points I'm using to say that Toyotaro meant "entire galaxy" in this case:

1) Toyotaro usually uses ごと to mean "entire" rather than "every":
The dictionary definition of ごと is “every”, but it’s also used as a contraction of 丸ごと, “entire”, and Toyotaro tends to use it in the latter sense. Case in point, when U9 is wiped out in the ToP, the Great Priest describes the annihilation of 宇宙ごと, the entire universe.
2) Characters have always used 宇宙 (uchuu) when talking about the universe, and never 銀河ごと (ginga-goto):
With all the talk of universal destruction throughout the ToP, it’s be rather strange and clunky for Whis to suddenly start saying “every galaxy” rather than simply “the universe”.
3) Krillin didn't mean it as "every galaxy":
After hearing Whis’ comment, Kuririn tells the others that Moro’s explosion will blow away この銀河, “this galaxy”. With Japanese lacking a true plural form, it’s maybe possible to take this as meaning “these galaxies”, but it’s not a way of saying “every galaxy”.

The arguments used to support it being "every galaxy" rather than "entire galaxy" are as follows:

1) The dictionary definition of ごと is "every".
2) Krillin was working under the assumption that one of the Super Dragon Balls was in the galaxy, which is not impossible, but it's a big stretch.
3) After Moro's death, Dai-Kaioshin tells Uub that he is the savior of the universe.

I have issues with all of these points. For the first one, dictionary definitions don't matter much when the author uses a word in an obviously different way than what dictionaries say, as I showed before. The second one, regarding Krillin believing that the SDBs would be destroyed, can be explained as Krillin being genuinely concerned about the possibility of Moro's detonation affecting the SDBs in case one of them happened to be floating around. After all, this was a dire situation with much more than the Earth on the line, and if even one SDB gets nuked, the entire set becomes worthless. Finally, "savior of the universe" is a blanket statement and doesn't necessarily mean that the entire universe was at stake: if a villain plotted to destroy Texas and a hero stopped that from happening, the POTUS might very well hail them as the savior of the country.
 
Again, can't 'power' in this context just be referring to Merus' abilities? Energy/Chi doesn't necessarily need to mean the same thing as power. We can agree that Ultra Instinct was a power that Merus possessed, correct? And Goku stated that Moro's body wasn't trained to handle Ultra Instinct like Merus' body was. So I think it's just as fine to interpret it as Ultra Instinct (Merus' ability which is referred to as 'power') is causing his energy to bloat (As stated by Whis), which will result in great destruction. There could be context I'm missing, but Moro has NEVER shown to copy the raw power/energy of his targets before. So why would he randomly gain Merus' raw power in addition to all of his abilities for no reason? I think power is really referring to Merus' abilities in this case. Not their energy.
It could, but it's pretty blatantly referring to the strength of Merus's angel abilities, rather than just some hax.
 
It could, but it's pretty blatantly referring to the strength of Merus's angel abilities, rather than just some hax.
Yes, that's what I was referring to. The 'strength' of Merus' abilities, or in this case Ultra Instinct, was causing his energy to bloat. Goku stated that Moro's body wasn't trained to maintain Ultra Instinct, which was causing his energy to bloat which would eventually detonate. From what I've seen, it wasn't Merus' raw power that was going to destroy the Galaxy. It was Moro's raw power that was going to destroy the Galaxy, as a result of his body not being able to handle Ultra Instinct. So the attack should count as his own, rather than Merus' energy.
 
Yes, that's what I was referring to. The 'strength' of Merus' abilities, or in this case Ultra Instinct, was causing his energy to bloat. Goku stated that Moro's body wasn't trained to maintain Ultra Instinct, which was causing his energy to bloat which would eventually detonate. From what I've seen, it wasn't Merus' raw power that was going to destroy the Galaxy. It was Moro's raw power that was going to destroy the Galaxy, as a result of his body not being able to handle Ultra Instinct. So the attack should count as his own, rather than Merus' energy.
Exactly, Moro couldn't handle the power of ultra instinct, meaning that Moro himself doesn't scale to Merus's ultra instinct abilities, so the explosion thing doesn't work for him.
 
I really, really don't think you should use Google Translate - or any form of machine translation at all. They are often very inaccurate compared to human translators and they are just widely hated in general when it comes to trying to translate stuff seriously. In fact, I'm pretty sure that we even discourage the use of machine translators - because why else would we have a translations request thread in the first place if you could just get a machine to do it for you at any time?




I thought more staff or knowledgeable members would come to provide input here and settle the matter, but I guess that didn't happen, so... unless there's some overriding reason to close it, I think that we should keep it open until we have more opinions from people that we can trust.

Anyway, my stance on this hasn't changed. I still think that context from other pieces of dialogue and how the series itself generally does things makes it more likely that Moro's self-destruction threatened one galaxy, and I don't see how dictionary definitions or vague statements about saving the universe can make any difference here.

If anyone needs a recap, here are the points I'm using to say that Toyotaro meant "entire galaxy" in this case:

1) Toyotaro usually uses ごと to mean "entire" rather than "every":

2) Characters have always used 宇宙 (uchuu) when talking about the universe, and never 銀河ごと (ginga-goto):

3) Krillin didn't mean it as "every galaxy":


The arguments used to support it being "every galaxy" rather than "entire galaxy" are as follows:

1) The dictionary definition of ごと is "every".
2) Krillin was working under the assumption that one of the Super Dragon Balls was in the galaxy, which is not impossible, but it's a big stretch.
3) After Moro's death, Dai-Kaioshin tells Uub that he is the savior of the universe.

I have issues with all of these points. For the first one, dictionary definitions don't matter much when the author uses a word in an obviously different way than what dictionaries say, as I showed before. The second one, regarding Krillin believing that the SDBs would be destroyed, can be explained as Krillin being genuinely concerned about the possibility of Moro's detonation affecting the SDBs in case one of them happened to be floating around. After all, this was a dire situation with much more than the Earth on the line, and if even one SDB gets nuked, the entire set becomes worthless. Finally, "savior of the universe" is a blanket statement and doesn't necessarily mean that the entire universe was at stake: if a villain plotted to destroy Texas and a hero stopped that from happening, the POTUS might very well hail them as the savior of the country.
I think I can adress some of these points. First, looking back at it, destroying every Galaxy might not be Universal anyways. From what I recall, isn't there other stuff that the Universe is made of that would need to be destroyed for it to count as Universal (I've also heard it's being debated if Space-Time is relative and thus the point of separating Universal and Universal+ is pointless). Destroying every Galaxy would just be like high Multi-Galaxy level, would it not? If this is the case, Whis' statement of destroying every Galaxy can be taken into consideration as some aspects of the Universe will still remain.

While it's also true that even one Dragon Ball being destroyed would result in the others being useless. The scan I initially used when making this thread specifically specifies that several Super Dragon Balls would be destroyed by Moro's blast, not by one being destroyed which causes the others to be useless:
main-qimg-533686684c83acf4418e9738885c2415

"But Tenshinhan still responds as if the destruction of 'this galaxy' will automatically mean the destruction of the DB's in space."
Based on that wording, Tien responds as if the destruction would mean the immediate destruction of numerous Super Dragon Balls. Not just one. One Super Dragon Ball being in the Milky Way? Sure, but numerous? I find that to be unlikely, if not impossible.
I agree with the saviour of the Universe stuff though.
 
Exactly, Moro couldn't handle the power of ultra instinct, meaning that Moro himself doesn't scale to Merus's ultra instinct abilities, so the explosion thing doesn't work for him.
He should scale to it while he is using Ultra Instinct. His body couldn't handle the drawbacks/strain of that level of mastery over UI. However, that doesn't mean he shouldn't scale. That would be the equivalent of saying Goku doesn't scale to his Ultra Instinct technique in the Tournament of Power because it strains him to the point it only lasts for a short period of time. It was still Moro's own power that was going to destroy the Galaxy, not Merus' power. Merus' level of Ultra Instinct only caused his body to bloat. Why would he not scale if he could still use the power to its fullest extent, even if it is destroying his body? He was still able to use Ultra Instinct to its full power which allowed him to be equal with Ultra Instinct Goku, and it was his energy that was going to destroy the Galaxy, or Galaxies, not Merus' power.
 
First of all, thank you for responding to me in a constructive manner. I feel like whenever I do anything Dragon Ball-related, people either ignore me or get up in arms over what I say.

Anyway, I'll go over your arguments:

First, looking back at it, destroying every Galaxy might not be Universal anyways. From what I recall, isn't there other stuff that the Universe is made of that would need to be destroyed for it to count as Universal (I've also heard it's being debated if Space-Time is relative and thus the point of separating Universal and Universal+ is pointless). Destroying every Galaxy would just be like high Multi-Galaxy level, would it not? If this is the case, Whis' statement of destroying every Galaxy can be taken into consideration as some aspects of the Universe will still remain.
For what it's worth, Earth is stated to be at the edge of Universe 7:

Bi81Cct.png


So, considering inverse square law, the energy yield would surely be high enough to reach 3-A, no?

As for the Universal vs Universal+ thing, it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, but TL;DR: while we do treat individual universes as Low 2-C objects by default, feats involving universal destruction do not and should not necessarily reach that tier because more often than not, "destroying the universe" just means performing an attack (for instance, an explosion) that spreads out across all of space and destroys all of the planets, stars, galaxies, etc. that are contained within the universe. Only when time is explicitly affected as well (whether it's shown to us in the feat itself or informed by statements) do we count that as Low 2-C, and even then, it only counts if all of time in that universe is affected - i.e., it destroys everything that was, is, and will be, as opposed to just everything that is at the moment of the destruction.
While it's also true that even one Dragon Ball being destroyed would result in the others being useless. The scan I initially used when making this thread specifically specifies that several Super Dragon Balls would be destroyed by Moro's blast, not by one being destroyed which causes the others to be useless:
main-qimg-533686684c83acf4418e9738885c2415

"But Tenshinhan still responds as if the destruction of 'this galaxy' will automatically mean the destruction of the DB's in space."
Based on that wording, Tien responds as if the destruction would mean the immediate destruction of numerous Super Dragon Balls. Not just one. One Super Dragon Ball being in the Milky Way? Sure, but numerous? I find that to be unlikely, if not impossible.
Reading the official English translation of these panels, Krillin said that Yamcha's idea (to leave the planet and use the Super Dragon Balls to fix everything) won't work because when Moro explodes, "the whole galaxy" (putting emphasis on this part since the original Japanese text says この銀河/“this galaxy”, or maybe "these galaxies" since Japanese doesn't have plurals, but it's not a way of saying "every galaxy") goes down with him, and that's when Tien asks "So even the Dragon Balls in space will be dust?"

The thing is, I don't think that any of these people could have known that any of the Super Dragon Balls were in the Milky Way at that moment. I know that the Super Dragon Radar is a thing and that it should be able to tell them if there are any Super Dragon Balls in the galaxy, but judging by how the scene went, it seemed to me that they hadn't checked the Dragon Radar yet and were only going to do so to try and reverse all the damage that Moro caused. If you have points against this, I'd love to hear them.

One last thing, and I'm sure that this isn't what you meant, but it's established that the Super Dragon Balls disperse throughout Universe 7 and Universe 6 after being used. This means that if one took everything liberally to claim that Moro somehow would have destroyed all of the Dragon Balls, they're likely to subsequently argue that UI Moro is 2-C, and I don't think I need to explain why that's dumb. Again, I'm not saying that I think you believe this, but I still see this as an important detail to mention.
 
First of all, thank you for responding to me in a constructive manner. I feel like whenever I do anything Dragon Ball-related, people either ignore me or get up in arms over what I say.
No problem. I've heard about the problems vs wiki has with Dragon Ball on other platforms. Don't want to give a bad impression. Especially since I do like this site, despite disagreeing with a fair share of it. I debate quite frequently off of the site, and I'll say this; I may come off as rude sometimes, but I never mean to. I'm just blunt. I want to put that out there in case (As I've run into people thinking I'm trying to be rude when it's not the case).
Anyway, I'll go over your arguments:

For what it's worth, Earth is stated to be at the edge of Universe 7:

So, considering inverse square law, the energy yield would surely be high enough to reach 3-A, no?

As for the Universal vs Universal+ thing, it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, but TL;DR: while we do treat individual universes as Low 2-C objects by default, feats involving universal destruction do not and should not necessarily reach that tier because more often than not, "destroying the universe" just means performing an attack (for instance, an explosion) that spreads out across all of space and destroys all of the planets, stars, galaxies, etc. that are contained within the universe. Only when time is explicitly affected as well (whether it's shown to us in the feat itself or informed by statements) do we count that as Low 2-C, and even then, it only counts if all of time in that universe is affected - i.e., it destroys everything that was, is, and will be, as opposed to just everything that is at the moment of the destruction.
Except, I don't believe Earth is at the edge of Universe 7. I believe they're at the edge of Outerspace. If you don't know what I'm referring to. Dragon Ball's Macrocosm is consistent of at least 2 separate Space-Time Continuum's. One being 'The Universe', which according to Daizenshuu is where Goku lives and all of the stories in the series take place (In DBZ):

images


There's debateably two more Space-Time Continuums per Macrocosm. That being the Demon Realm and Other World. The Milky Way which Bulma and Goku live in is on the edge of the Universe, not Universe 7 as a whole (Universe 7 implies the entire Macrocosm). So they're on the edge of that specific space-time continuum, but not at the edge of the entire Macrocosm. THIS is what I think Moro was going to destroy, not the ENTIRE Macrocosm, which is referred to as Universe 7. Which is why Grand Priest states the entire Universe was erased, while in this case every Galaxy may be more appropriate as the entire Universe wasn't going to be wiped out. Just one Space-Time out of several in the Macrocosm.

As for the Space-Time thing, I brought it up because I heard there was a debate going on about Space-Time being relative here. Which essentially means with space, time can't exist, and vice versa. Meaning, if you destroy all the space of a Universe, that you also adversely destroyed time. Thus why I heard Universal isn't really necessary and that Universal+ would do. But destroying every Galaxy isn't destroying all of Space, just part of space. There's other things in the Space-Time Continuum besides Galaxies from what I'm aware.
Reading the official English translation of these panels, Krillin said that Yamcha's idea (to leave the planet and use the Super Dragon Balls to fix everything) won't work because when Moro explodes, "the whole galaxy" (putting emphasis on this part since the original Japanese text says この銀河/“this galaxy”, or maybe "these galaxies" since Japanese doesn't have plurals, but it's not a way of saying "every galaxy") goes down with him, and that's when Tien asks "So even the Dragon Balls in space will be dust?"

The thing is, I don't think that any of these people could have known that any of the Super Dragon Balls were in the Milky Way at that moment. I know that the Super Dragon Radar is a thing and that it should be able to tell them if there are any Super Dragon Balls in the galaxy, but judging by how the scene went, it seemed to me that they hadn't checked the Dragon Radar yet and were only going to do so to try and reverse all the damage that Moro caused. If you have points against this, I'd love to hear them.
I'll get into this point specifically, but it requires me to address your last point to answer the question:
One last thing, and I'm sure that this isn't what you meant, but it's established that the Super Dragon Balls disperse throughout Universe 7 and Universe 6 after being used. This means that if one took everything liberally to claim that Moro somehow would have destroyed all of the Dragon Balls, they're likely to subsequently argue that UI Moro is 2-C, and I don't think I need to explain why that's dumb. Again, I'm not saying that I think you believe this, but I still see this as an important detail to mention.
Oh, I'm well aware of that. I believe you've misinterpreted my argument. I was never saying that Moro's explosion would destroy all of the Super Dragon Balls. But rather several of the 7. As the initial scan states it will destroy the Super Dragon Balls plural, not a single one. Meaning it can very well mean 2-6 as opposed to just one. Seeing as they scatter across Universe 6 and 7, several can be in Universe 7 at a time. Thus my argument is that Moro would destroy several Dragon Balls which are VERY unlikely to be in the Milky Way. More likely, they're scattered across Universe 7. Thus why I see this feat to be more than Galactic regardless. As the chance of several Super Dragon Balls is far too unlikely. It would be safter to assume that Moro's destroying several Galaxies with his explosion thus destroying several Super Dragon Balls than it would to assume that there's randomly 2-6 Super Dragon Balls in the Milky Way. Can we agree on that?

As for the previous point; I agree. I don't think they did see the Super Dragon Ball Radar at that point, thus wouldn't know the Super Dragon Balls were in Universe 7. Thus Tien replying as though Moro exploding would result in several Super Dragon Balls implies he believed that several Galaxies would be affected by the explosion. Although this statement kind of helps me either was as one's a guess based on Moro's power, and assuming he saw the Super Dragon Ball Radar would make it a educated guess (As he would know exactly where the Super Dragon Balls are scattered throughout Universe 7 in particular).
 
Goku is at low 2c yet moro is at 3B why is that?
I guess that's for anime goku
 
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Tbf, I'm a bit neutral on the thread to get Moro to 3A cause I don't think his normal self scales to that, but that's just me.

However, if it is accepted, then High 3A definitely does work. Simply put, there's too much evidence supporting an infinitely-sized universe to actually deny it unless you were to argue that DBS retconned it, which is definitely a possibility.
 
I agree with 3-A Moro. From what I've seen in this thread, there's some strong evidence for it.
I kinda disagree with this cause it's mainly based on translation. As well as that, if there is going to be a 3A Moro, it should be in a separate key like a self destruct key cause his normal state, even with ultra instinct, shouldn't scale to it.

As for High 3A, I'm fine with it. I think it could still apply as the requirements for High 3A are simply to have infinite 3D space, and countable infinity should still work, unless I'm missing something.
 
I still maintain my view. A lot of people have already voiced disagreements with this. Should we close this?
 
Immediate may not have been a good word lol, my head hurts like a bitch, but people can still express their viewpoints. And most seem to be in agreement anyways.
 
I really, really don't think you should use Google Translate - or any form of machine translation at all. They are often very inaccurate compared to human translators and they are just widely hated in general when it comes to trying to translate stuff seriously. In fact, I'm pretty sure that we even discourage the use of machine translators - because why else would we have a translations request thread in the first place if you could just get a machine to do it for you at any time?




I thought more staff or knowledgeable members would come to provide input here and settle the matter, but I guess that didn't happen, so... unless there's some overriding reason to close it, I think that we should keep it open until we have more opinions from people that we can trust.

Anyway, my stance on this hasn't changed. I still think that context from other pieces of dialogue and how the series itself generally does things makes it more likely that Moro's self-destruction threatened one galaxy, and I don't see how dictionary definitions or vague statements about saving the universe can make any difference here.

If anyone needs a recap, here are the points I'm using to say that Toyotaro meant "entire galaxy" in this case:

1) Toyotaro usually uses ごと to mean "entire" rather than "every":

2) Characters have always used 宇宙 (uchuu) when talking about the universe, and never 銀河ごと (ginga-goto):

3) Krillin didn't mean it as "every galaxy":


The arguments used to support it being "every galaxy" rather than "entire galaxy" are as follows:

1) The dictionary definition of ごと is "every".
2) Krillin was working under the assumption that one of the Super Dragon Balls was in the galaxy, which is not impossible, but it's a big stretch.
3) After Moro's death, Dai-Kaioshin tells Uub that he is the savior of the universe.

I have issues with all of these points. For the first one, dictionary definitions don't matter much when the author uses a word in an obviously different way than what dictionaries say, as I showed before. The second one, regarding Krillin believing that the SDBs would be destroyed, can be explained as Krillin being genuinely concerned about the possibility of Moro's detonation affecting the SDBs in case one of them happened to be floating around. After all, this was a dire situation with much more than the Earth on the line, and if even one SDB gets nuked, the entire set becomes worthless. Finally, "savior of the universe" is a blanket statement and doesn't necessarily mean that the entire universe was at stake: if a villain plotted to destroy Texas and a hero stopped that from happening, the POTUS might very well hail them as the savior of the country.
First of all, thank you for responding to me in a constructive manner. I feel like whenever I do anything Dragon Ball-related, people either ignore me or get up in arms over what I say.

Anyway, I'll go over your arguments:


For what it's worth, Earth is stated to be at the edge of Universe 7:

Bi81Cct.png


So, considering inverse square law, the energy yield would surely be high enough to reach 3-A, no?

As for the Universal vs Universal+ thing, it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, but TL;DR: while we do treat individual universes as Low 2-C objects by default, feats involving universal destruction do not and should not necessarily reach that tier because more often than not, "destroying the universe" just means performing an attack (for instance, an explosion) that spreads out across all of space and destroys all of the planets, stars, galaxies, etc. that are contained within the universe. Only when time is explicitly affected as well (whether it's shown to us in the feat itself or informed by statements) do we count that as Low 2-C, and even then, it only counts if all of time in that universe is affected - i.e., it destroys everything that was, is, and will be, as opposed to just everything that is at the moment of the destruction.

Reading the official English translation of these panels, Krillin said that Yamcha's idea (to leave the planet and use the Super Dragon Balls to fix everything) won't work because when Moro explodes, "the whole galaxy" (putting emphasis on this part since the original Japanese text says この銀河/“this galaxy”, or maybe "these galaxies" since Japanese doesn't have plurals, but it's not a way of saying "every galaxy") goes down with him, and that's when Tien asks "So even the Dragon Balls in space will be dust?"

The thing is, I don't think that any of these people could have known that any of the Super Dragon Balls were in the Milky Way at that moment. I know that the Super Dragon Radar is a thing and that it should be able to tell them if there are any Super Dragon Balls in the galaxy, but judging by how the scene went, it seemed to me that they hadn't checked the Dragon Radar yet and were only going to do so to try and reverse all the damage that Moro caused. If you have points against this, I'd love to hear them.

One last thing, and I'm sure that this isn't what you meant, but it's established that the Super Dragon Balls disperse throughout Universe 7 and Universe 6 after being used. This means that if one took everything liberally to claim that Moro somehow would have destroyed all of the Dragon Balls, they're likely to subsequently argue that UI Moro is 2-C, and I don't think I need to explain why that's dumb. Again, I'm not saying that I think you believe this, but I still see this as an important detail to mention.

Ok for starters I find this bulma statement to be very inconsistent and not reliable for a number of reasons. For one Jaco contradicts this statement and explains that a center is impossible to find as stated here
Next about the edge thing, which holds less credibility since we already know the other half of the statement was wrong, doesn't work for a number of reasons. 1. How does bulma know shes on the edge? Is she able to see the the universe or even outside of her own planet? If so how far? I believe this statement only means as far as bulma can see, earth is the end of the universe, which means literally nothing unless this is an absolute fact. Secondly even if earth actually WAS at the edge, it doesn't even contradict it being infinite. For example there can simply be infinite space between the galaxies, as demonstrated in this model
Or the universe could be similar to a mathematical ray, (a 3 dimensional version of course) with earth as its starting point, and then the universe existing infinitely in one direction as outlined in this second model
Either way this statement doesn't even come close to debunking the universe being infinite in size, especially when the statements come from the daizenshuu which toriyama praise to the point he approves of their credibility and downplays his own.
I am of course willing to discuss this in vc in discord if you have any contentions to what i am saying, because i know threads like these take forever to get a reply from, and even longer to reach a consensus on.
LeSupremeKing#1481
 
Ok for starters I find this bulma statement to be very inconsistent and not reliable for a number of reasons. For one Jaco contradicts this statement and explains that a center is impossible to find as stated here
Next about the edge thing, which holds less credibility since we already know the other half of the statement was wrong, doesn't work for a number of reasons. 1. How does bulma know shes on the edge? Is she able to see the the universe or even outside of her own planet? If so how far? I believe this statement only means as far as bulma can see, earth is the end of the universe, which means literally nothing unless this is an absolute fact. Secondly even if earth actually WAS at the edge, it doesn't even contradict it being infinite. For example there can simply be infinite space between the galaxies, as demonstrated in this model
Or the universe could be similar to a mathematical ray, (a 3 dimensional version of course) with earth as its starting point, and then the universe existing infinitely in one direction as outlined in this second model
Either way this statement doesn't even come close to debunking the universe being infinite in size, especially when the statements come from the daizenshuu which toriyama praise to the point he approves of their credibility and downplays his own.
I am of course willing to discuss this in vc in discord if you have any contentions to what i am saying, because i know threads like these take forever to get a reply from, and even longer to reach a consensus on.
LeSupremeKing#1481
First of all, Jaco doesn't say that there isn't a center, he just says that it's not possible to find it in a certain amount of time due to how ridiculously big the universe is.

The second thing is that the Daizenshuu statements are contradicted by some statements of the universe being infinitely expanding, which isn't how High 3A works.
 
First of all, Jaco doesn't say that there isn't a center, he just says that it's not possible to find it in a certain amount of time due to how ridiculously big the universe is.

The second thing is that the Daizenshuu statements are contradicted by some statements of the universe being infinitely expanding, which isn't how High 3A works.
The "infinitely expanding" Universe statements... Which come from the Daizenshuu too.

They don't even say that but oh well this is pointless. The way this wiki treats certain words is weird to me but there's nothing I can do about it
 
First of all, Jaco doesn't say that there isn't a center, he just says that it's not possible to find it in a certain amount of time due to how ridiculously big the universe is.

The second thing is that the Daizenshuu statements are contradicted by some statements of the universe being infinitely expanding, which isn't how High 3A works.
But the daizenshu doesn't ...even say it?
 
First of all, Jaco doesn't say that there isn't a center, he just says that it's not possible to find it in a certain amount of time due to how ridiculously big the universe is.

The second thing is that the Daizenshuu statements are contradicted by some statements of the universe being infinitely expanding, which isn't how High 3A works.
Exactly, and within an infinite sized structure it is quite literally not possible to have place a center as well. And he never said "in a certain amount of time" he was just speaking generally as far as we know. Which is why he suggests asking Zuno if he would know of a center, although they never end up actually finding it. Even if we take Jaco's statement out of the picture, we would then need to look into bulma's validity, as i stated earlier. How does bulma know shes on the edge? Is she able to see the the universe or even outside of her own planet? If so how far? I believe this statement only means as far as bulma can see, earth is the end of the universe, which means literally nothing unless this is an absolute fact.

Secondly, the daizenshuu doesn't say its infinitely expanding, it says its infinitely expansive. Which is defined as covering a wide area in terms of space or scope; extensive or wide-ranging. Which is COMPLETELY different from expanding.
 
Exactly, and within an infinite sized structure it is quite literally not possible to have place a center as well. And he never said "in a certain amount of time" he was just speaking generally as far as we know. Which is why he suggests asking Zuno if he would know of a center, although they never end up actually finding it. Even if we take Jaco's statement out of the picture, we would then need to look into bulma's validity, as i stated earlier. How does bulma know shes on the edge? Is she able to see the the universe or even outside of her own planet? If so how far? I believe this statement only means as far as bulma can see, earth is the end of the universe, which means literally nothing unless this is an absolute fact.

Secondly, the daizenshuu doesn't say its infinitely expanding, it says its infinitely expansive. Which is defined as covering a wide area in terms of space or scope; extensive or wide-ranging. Which is COMPLETELY different from expanding.
First of all, he's not saying that at all. It literally just says that the universe is ridiculously big, which is why there's no point in searching for a center. It's not because one doesn't exist.

As for the second one, I'm pretty sure I saw a translation of it saying infinitely expanding, but I could be wrong.
 
First of all, he's not saying that at all. It literally just says that the universe is ridiculously big, which is why there's no point in searching for a center. It's not because one doesn't exist.

As for the second one, I'm pretty sure I saw a translation of it saying infinitely expanding, but I could be wrong.
Firstly he says its due to the size specifically that it is impossible for a center to be located, yes. Which is consistent with the way an infinite sized body should work.
And as far as we know, a center DOES NOT exist, because Jaco, who I find to be a more reliable source than Bulma as he has actually explored/seen more of the universe than Bulma has, contradicts her. And if we hold this contradiction to be true, then why is the other half of bulma's statement credible?

Also trust me i've seen many scans getting the dragon ball universe to infinite, none of them say expanding, they only ever say expansive, which people mistakenly believe is the same as expanding which is not true at all.
 
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