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#2 vs #5 strongest non-smurf 9-B: Imp (D&D) vs Toda Mikoku

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Livinmeme said:
Question why toda has CM type 2?
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Because she manipulates type 2 concepts, duh.
Jokes aside, OnC concepts fulfil the type 2 definition perfectly. They are the cause of the laws of nature and existed before everything else in the multiverse. They are generally said to be the thing making reality what it is and govern it.
 
Last match Imp was in was a stomp against Nagash due to the ladders range and hax.

Also can Todo hit Abstract 1?
 
another one?
 
the next thread that I get called to that's related to the Top bloody Strongest threads is going to experience an extremely grumpy Bambu

Imp isn't prone to starting with anything. Imp ostensibly resists every ability possessed by the enemy, given the Imp is in fact a small fragment of a Type 2 concept themselves. Given only one resistance on their page, should I assume this is all they resist or can further scans be brought forth to offer resistances to the Imp's abilities?

Assuming a basic imp, the most likely abilities used are invisibility at the onset of the fight followed by Soul/Morality/Etc stuff (basically really fancy Social Influencing that sends you to hell, though Imp is able to strike the soul as well- it's just that they aren't really fighters, and rather just quite literal devils-on-your-shoulder). They may also gun for curses to weaken the target to oblivion if they are indeed going to initiate physical combat, use suggestion to end the fight rather quickly via mindhax, or poison the lady to make her essentially incapable of movement.
 
Ned_the_outer_god said:
It’s alright, besides, there is no other 9-B devil in DnD that has a profile, 9-A and 8-C is where all the peeps are at
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Demons have better passive stuff anyways. Death hax, space hax, biology hax, etc. All by right of their being. Meanwhile Devil's main thing as beings of Law is to just shut down chaos.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
the next thread that I get called to that's related to the Top bloody Strongest threads is going to experience an extremely grumpy Bambu
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Don't worry, I used Mikoku so that all my other characters can simply stomp her to get their place.

Mr._Bambu said:
Imp isn't prone to starting with anything. Imp ostensibly resists every ability possessed by the enemy, given the Imp is in fact a small fragment of a Type 2 concept themselves.
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As said, Mikoku can freeze and shatter Type 2 concepts.

Mr._Bambu said:
Given only one resistance on their page, should I assume this is all they resist or can further scans be brought forth to offer resistances to the Imp's abilities?
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Yes, she doesn't have a lot of resistances. She has abilities that can actively counter a lot of stuff, though. Like the aforementioned conceptual freezing or the reflection concept, which can reflect mind stuff back at the user. Or the concept of betrayed expectation, which makes it so that anything the enemy expect to work against her will fail to work. Or the concept of ability reversal.
Her precog helps with using these.

She also has rather good regeneration. It's only High-Mid on paper, but it is in fact conceptual regeneration that is caused by a stone in her body. So hax which doesn't destroy the stone won't put her down.
 
I am aware you said that, however given the Imp themselves resist conceptual based abilities on that level I'd like to know if she has any feats of overcoming said resistances. I believe she can just hit the Imp to death regardless (though Damage Reduction and Type 9 Immortality helps negate this, given one needs to hit him on both planes of existence at once to meaningfully affect him).

The second bit... may I get a list of these resistances, possibly cited? I can do the same with D&D of course, though it is obviously a wildly incomplete list based on 1-2 of the total 600+ books we need to scan through. To be clear, since you're mentioning a lot of concept this, concept that, Imp themselves don't possess Conceptual Manipulation. They would be using their abilities in the normal sense- so resistance to, say, normal poison, normal soul manip, etc, would be suitable.

I don't think this regen counteracts anything I mentioned (as far as I'm aware, at least) but duly noted. Imp likely cannot physically kill her, then (though the poison should still be notable enough of an incap method should it come down to physical combat)
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I am aware you said that, however given the Imp themselves resist conceptual based abilities on that level I'd like to know if she has any feats of overcoming said resistances.
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??? It doesn't really have any kind of resistance to concept manip listed.

Mr._Bambu said:
I believe she can just hit the Imp to death regardless (though Damage Reduction and Type 9 Immortality helps negate this, given one needs to hit him on both planes of existence at once to meaningfully affect him).
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Damage reduction can save it from infinite power attacks?
And regarding the Type 9 Immortality: When and where does it resurrect them? Or in other words: Is it battle appliciable or would it just be out due to BFR/Incap?

Mikoku's Names = Power Concept technique also can inflict wounds that can't be healed, not even by concept stuff, and in fact always continue to get worse instead.

Mr._Bambu said:
The second bit... may I get a list of these resistances, possibly cited? I can do the same with D&D of course, though it is obviously a wildly incomplete list based on 1-2 of the total 600+ books we need to scan through. To be clear, since you're mentioning a lot of concept this, concept that, Imp themselves don't possess Conceptual Manipulation. They would be using their abilities in the normal sense- so resistance to, say, normal poison, normal soul manip, etc, would be suitable.
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As said, not resistances. Defensive techniques. I can give you a quote dump, but Toda is kinda composite of every other character in the verse. So basically all explanations are from when other people use them. It will also be long. If you really want to read it... any in particular you wanna see?

Btw. I mentioned concepts so much, because every ability in Owari no Chronicle is concept manipulation based. They don't create shields that reflects stuff. They add a concept that reflects stuff to reality in order to use it as a shield.

Mr._Bambu said:
I don't think this regen counteracts anything I mentioned (as far as I'm aware, at least) but duly noted. Imp likely cannot physically kill her, then (though the poison should still be notable enough of an incap method should it come down to physical combat)
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I don't think her regen would let her get poison incapped either, given that her regeneration also includes a self-evolution effect that would probably make her immune in a split second.

It should counter the soul stuff, unless the Imp can soul attack a stone.
 
It doesn't have most of its resistances listed, yes. As I said, I can provide info if absolutely needed, citations and such, though I'd rather not go dig up the books for a match I'd rather not be in to begin with. Suffice to say Truename magic is resistable and it functions as a Type 2 concept.

Probably not. Immortality Type 9 means it outright can't really be killed unless it is hit simultaneously on both planes of existence it resides on- the Prime Material (our "Earth", basically) and Baator, the Nine Hells. Neat about the wounds thing but if it can't get around Type 9 I think that's moot?

Define "defensive techniques" first, then I'll decide if I need to go spelunking.

I mean, okay, but you get my point, she doesn't need to die to lose. And ironically, yeah, he kind of can, given soul stuff damages creatures like Galeb Duhr.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It doesn't have most of its resistances listed, yes. As I said, I can provide info if absolutely needed, citations and such, though I'd rather not go dig up the books for a match I'd rather not be in to begin with. Suffice to say Truename magic is resistable and it functions as a Type 2 concept.
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I mean, if it's not on the profile, then for the time being it isn't even an argument. Vsthreads work with the profile and all that.

Also, if we're talking D&D isn't there a big difference between can resist and does resist? As in, while there might be a chance for it to resist she could also "roll high" and it just doesn't?

Mr._Bambu said:
Probably not. Immortality Type 9 means it outright can't really be killed unless it is hit simultaneously on both planes of existence it resides on- the Prime Material (our "Earth", basically) and Baator, the Nine Hells. Neat about the wounds thing but if it can't get around Type 9 I think that's moot?
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If its body on the earth plane is destroyed and it doesn't reform it on the battlefield in time, then it would lose due to BFR/Incap. Doesn't matter if it still exists in some other realm. Hence my question regarding time and place of regeneration.

Once the life carving starts it will continue forever until it's done. While the physical wound can be closed (by means such as operation), the damage to the life itself can't be undone, except by more powerful concept manipulation. In fact, the life carving attaches to the targets life and destroying the concept that does the life carving is likely to end the targets life as a side effect.
So while the Imp's Baator self maybe survives, its Earth plane manifestation will forever remain damage and become more damaged by the second, leaving it permanently incapacitated.

Mr._Bambu said:
Define "defensive techniques" first, then I'll decide if I need to go spelunking.
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Think power null. Something that, after it is activated, will prevent the opponent's technique from showing results as long as it remains activated.

For example: One of the first things Toda is likely to use is the "There is no mutual understanding"-Concept. That concept makes it impossible for the Imp to understand the world outside its own physical body. It also has the side effect of negating mind manip attempts. So the Imps mind manip is unlikely to work.
To show you some quotes on that:
Yui gave Heo’s back a gentle push.
“Go. You have a visitor.”
Neither of them asked who it was and they heard a voice that resembled their own.
—There is no mutual understanding.
Heo reflexively stood just as she lost all sensation from the outside world.


This was a space that lacked understanding.
One’s eyes could see, their ears could hear, and their senses of taste, smell, and touch worked, but they could not understand any of it.
Everything existed, but the information on its existence did not get through.
Heo stood in that world.
…Um…
The faint repelling force on the bottom of her feet was the internal sensation her feet being pressed on by her own weight.
That alone was certain.
She shrank down because it felt like only the bottom of her feet existed. It felt as if lifting a leg would divide her existence in half.
“What do I do?”
She could speak, but she would receive no answer.
Her eyes could see around her, but they gave her no information.
Nervous, she shouted a name.
“Thunder Fellow!!”
She wanted that cry to get through.
“…”
But there was no response.
Even after several seconds, she was not swallowed up by the machine.
If she was, she would feel it in the repelling force she could feel, but it never happened.
Calling for the blue and white mechanical dragon was no use.
…Does that mean he really is someone else?
That thought sent a chill down her spine.
She and Harakawa could not fight on their own. And from what Sibyl had told her in the hospital, Mitsuaki had a scroll concept weapon. It had been sealed below Izumo UCAT, its origins were a mystery, and it could bring out a world.
…According to the report, the automaton named Gyes was hit by a small sun bullet.
That was when Heo felt something on the right side of her skin.
It was heat.
She felt heat in her skin just like after a trip to the beach, and that meant…
“That small sun is flying in from the right.”
She knew she had to avoid it. She had to escape to the left, right, front, or back.
“…!!”
But not knowing anything about the world around her left her frozen in place.
Was there an obstacle in her way? How was she supposed to fight after escaping? She knew nothing and her anxiety locked up her legs, but that was exactly why she cried out.
“Harakawaaaa!!”
A moment later, she felt a force down below.
Just like with the sensation on the bottom of her feet, she could tell something was holding onto her right ankle.
…Eh!?
Before she could ask what this was, some kind of force struck her.
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“Mitsuaki-san, help us out.”

As soon as she spoke, everyone there heard a high-pitched sound of destruction.

“That was the sound of a concept being destroyed!”

Sibyl shrank back at the magnitude of the sound and saw the black-haired girl by the forest growing pale.

She frantically checked on her blue philosopher’s stone, but the mental concept stone was no longer glowing.

Sibyl wondered what had happened and Kazami’s back answered with a bitter smile in her voice.

“A concept that forces understanding can be negated by a concept that cuts off understanding. …Nothing to worry about now, right?”
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In case you wonder, Mitsuaki's concept is mind control, yes.
Even without the dogs, she could use her philosopher’s stone’s power to break into an opponent’s thoughts and make them do what she said.
“Please move out of the way,” she said to the stone hanging from her neck.
A moment later, the few people immediately blocking her path unsteadily stood up.
It had worked. The power of a philosopher’s stone was the same as a concept and there was no way to oppose a power that simply stated how things were.
“…”
She took a breath. As a few people moved to either side, the people behind them frantically spoke up.
“W-wait! You’re controlling them! Is this some kind of miraculous beauty power!?”
“This is not a beauty power! It’s a philosopher’s stone!!”
“Ehhh!?”
She ignored their shouts of protest and stepped forward.
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Mr._Bambu said:
I mean, okay, but you get my point, she doesn't need to die to lose. And ironically, yeah, he kind of can, given soul stuff damages creatures like Galeb Duhr.
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I mean, that has a soul from what I can see. The same can't really be said for her philosopher stone, which is just an actual non-living stone that radiates a concept.
 
Aight. Cheers, then.
 
As for the imp immortality, when a devil die in any place that aren't the Nine Hells they turn into a poodle and it they transported back to the Nine Hell, a process that takes 99 years to complete. After that, the devil may be demoted or not, then not sure how they go back to the material plane (or any other plane).

EDIT: This refer to 3.xe, so its possible that it may have recon-ed with later editions.
 
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Well, that sounds like the Imp would just get killed and then lose to incap/BFR.
 
You are aware the reason dnd profiles don't have all the resistances on their page is because there is so many and with out the resistances only demons really stand out for 9-B
 
Other verses manage doing resistances too. Even other RP verses do it. Abilities have to be on profiles to be considered. If we didn't do things like that the profiles wouldn't reflect our official stance on things, which would be troublesome in many ways.
That said, aren't I correct in that resistances in D&D don't mean that techniques are completely ineffective, anyway?
 
Saving throws means they have chances to ignore certain effects, most effects are binary, so that either means a character completely ignores the effect, or "eat" it completely. Naturally, one can't guarantee how strong on DC can be, and thus if a character can "resist" it or not, as there is no point of reference (except for real life stuff, like snake venom).
 
DontTalkDT said:
That said, aren't I correct in that resistances in D&D don't mean that techniques are completely ineffective, anyway?
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Eh why, there're layers to resistances so unless you can bypass those you aren't doing much lol
Not arguing she ain't doing that but this point is like "what"
DontTalkDT said:
Other verses manage doing resistances too. Even other RP verses do it. Abilities have to be on profiles to be considered. If we didn't do things like that the profiles wouldn't reflect our official stance on things, which would be troublesome in many ways.
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The problem is that rn we just don't have enough people to research and cite all resistances that you can find in the game lol, 40+ years of content after all
Antoniofer said:
Saving throws means they have chances to ignore certain effects, most effects are binary, so that either means a character completely ignores the effect, or "eat" it completely. Naturally, one can't guarantee how strong on DC can be, and thus if a character can "resist" it or not, as there is no point of reference (except for real life stuff, like snake venom).
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Again what, even if you look at this from pure mechanics then there're stuff you can easily resist while others don't
Plus not to mention immunties, resistances and so on alongside roll average for creatures so again what
 
I don't think that is how we accept it, here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/The_Dungeons_and_Dragons_Resistances_Blog

Do you want to put this resistance list on every dnd page?
DontTalkDT said:
That said, aren't I correct in that resistances in D&D don't mean that techniques are completely ineffective, anyway?
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I don't believe so the resistances to basically everything is the reason that they are so consistent on the non smurf list and if these resistances where accepted like that it would mean in theory that they would be lower.
 
Lou_change said:
I don't think that is how we accept it, here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/The_Dungeons_and_Dragons_Resistances_Blog

Do you want to put this resistance list on every dnd page?
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If it's accurate and accepted, why not?
Tllmbrg said:
Eh why, there're layers to resistances so unless you can bypass those you aren't doing much lol
Not arguing she ain't doing that but this point is like "what"
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Only if they have showings that the lower "layers" just completely fail to work. As long as techniques can be resisted or fail to be resisted by dice roll, and it's possible to roll to make it work, Mikoku should eventually be able to get damage/effects in by using her attacks often enough.

Lou_change said:
The problem is that rn we just don't have enough people to research and cite all resistances that you can find in the game lol, 40+ years of content after all
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I mean, that's ok. However, if nobody wants to defend the profiles as they are, then they should be removed from the top 5 strongest list until they are in a state that people want to defend them in IMO.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Only if they have showings that the lower "layers" just completely fail to work. As long as techniques can be resisted or fail to be resisted by dice roll, and it's possible to roll to make it work, Mikoku should eventually be able to get damage/effects in by using her attacks often enough.
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You do realise that the dice rolls aren't a literal thing yes, we don't use DC to decide potency of stuff for D&D since that'd make a regular snake's poison comparable to some poisons that can melt you due to DC ranging between 10-20 usually so like no
DC is only used to showcase that something can be resisted in verse, D&D magic just tends to be decently potent considering all magic is able to effect beings on multiple planes (Since magic can let anyone hit elementals) or effect abstracts
Also Mikoku's "dice roll" if you wanna go with that narrative could be effected by her own stats, so like you want us to try and convert her into D&D stats or what?
Again I'm not even arguing she doesn't overpower but the basis of why she does rn is not stellar
 
Tllmbrg said:
You do realise that the dice rolls aren't a literal thing yes, we don't use DC to decide potency of stuff for D&D since that'd make a regular snake's poison comparable to some poisons that can melt you due to DC ranging between 10-20 usually so like no
DC is only used to showcase that something can be resisted in verse, D&D magic just tends to be decently potent considering all magic is able to effect beings on multiple planes (Since magic can let anyone hit elementals) or effect abstracts
Also Mikoku's "dice roll" if you wanna go with that narrative could be effected by her own stats, so like you want us to try and convert her into D&D stats or what?
Again I'm not even arguing she doesn't overpower but the basis of why she does rn is not stellar
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I mean, dice rolls are not a literal thing for sure. That said, resisting stuff based on luck or probability can be a canonical thing. I know verses with death hax that only works a certain percentage of the time.

I don't know about converting Mikoku into D&D stats, but if something with certain "stats" can overcome their resistance, then a comparison should be made to see whether Mikoku is comparable to that or not.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I mean, dice rolls are not a literal thing for sure. That said, resisting stuff based on luck or probability can be a canonical thing. I know verses with death hax that only works a certain percentage of the time.
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Not really a thing in verse so
 
You sure? Like, have we actual evidence that it doesn't work like that?

Anyways, to get this to a decision, can we generally agree that, as the D&D profiles are now, the Imp loses?
I'm perfectly ok with remaking this match once the 9-B D&D characters were updated to reflect their full power, but for now I just see Imp get concept haxed.
 
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