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2-A Precog and Fate hax revision
- Thread starter PrinceofPein
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Yeah more like characters with a ability to percieve infinite but precog cannot be listed as such because there is no "end future".
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- #83
they do not have to know it but they need to have prove to be capable of doing so, i.e. reaching anywhere in the said timeline with their precog.
anyway let me rephrase based on @Sonoftanavast9
Sonoftanavast9
He/Him- 647
- 490
To my understanding there's no end to an infinite universe in the conventional sense but being able to see or perceive the whole thing at once is still commonly accepted here so I think precog might be treated in the same vein.
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So, you're saying that one has to see an infinite amount of time in the future to qualify for 4-dimensional precognition? And do that for an infinite number of timelines for it to be 2-A range? I see then.
Honestly, I find this needlessly obtuse. You're still objectively covering a significant aspect of infinite timelines if you can see across their futures for a period and cross the higher-dimensional gap between them. I can understand scrutinizing "viewing infinite possibilities" since of course they actually have to provably exist or be capable of manifesting as alternate timelines but the rest actually do cross that range.
Disagree with this for now, until I see more comprehensive viewpoints.
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I don't think, if said character can see the future of all of infinite timelines than proving that they have limit somewhere in all of time and space for this particular ability is one with BOP.
PrinceofPein
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- #87
The bolded part is somethign you are misunderstanding in my point,
if someone can see the future of infinite timelines, they obviously have 2-A range, I think I need to clarify that better in the OP.
The scenario I am referring to is a situation where there is a single universe and character A can precog to see infinite possible futures/actions that are about to happen.
In Scenario 1: Character A can see just moments into time for those possible futures
In Scenario 2: Character B can see all these said moments but he has the ability to take one or all of them and see where they will lead to at the end of the timeline or to put it better 'see it infinitely'
Scenario 1 is not tier 2, as he is just seeing moments and aside the facts that these timelines do not exists they are just possible events that may happen a second and a day from now and it is practically the equivalence of a High 3-A AP range
Scenario 2 is tier 2, can be low 2-C or 2-A depending on the capability of the character.
I hope this clarify my points, I will also add it to the OP
noted
Well I dislike using mathematics, but let me explain
Using
- Infinite universe: ∞
- Infinite universes: N∞, where N represents the set of all this infinite universes
- Sum total of the first 10 moments of all universes in a structure which which contains infinite universes : Σa1+a2....... a10, where Σ represents the sum, and a1 and a2 represent the first two numbers of each set
- Uncountable infinite moments of universes: C
∞ =< N∞ < Σa1+a2.......+a10 < C
each practically infinitely greater than the last, the sum total of few moments will never be up to C
C is what is required for tier 2-A range.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- #88
Seeing future of all infinite timeline =/= seeing all possible future for a single universe, a few moments ahead
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@Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @LordTracer @LordGriffin1000 @Celestial_Pegasus @Agnaa
Any input would be appreciated.
Any input would be appreciated.
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There are as many elements in real numbers btw 0 to infinity as many there are btw 0 to 1, so there is no practical difference.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- #91
that is written based on our standard maths and not real life maths, please check and know that all I send here is based on tiering application
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@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality Thoughts?
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Precog is ranged based. As our page on range states
With the definitions as follows
To have Multiversal+ range, the ability needs to be able to reach anywhere within an infinite space across an infinite amount of universes at the same time.
So if the precog ability can see a truly infinite number of universes at once then yeah it would be 2-A in scope. Though you would need to prove that the ability allows them to see anywhere in the multiverse rather than some localized thing (I think). I know that Tiamat from D&D has Multiversal+ range due to this feat
So presumably if you can effectively see an infinite number of alternate universes it's 2-A precog.
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agree
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they're still both infinite
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I think Qawsed makes sense to me.
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You're still rreaching infinite spacetimes i believe, so it doesnt matter if its localized or not.
Im pretty sure anywhere means any sized point
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Okay, but you can have an infinite range value without the ability being 4D.
In which case, I don't disagree with 2-A range, I disagree with it being a 4D ability based on that range. If that makes sense.
Like, someone having a 6-B missile that can cross infinite universes doesn't make its potency 2-A or even 4D at all.
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tier 2 and above's potency rely heavily on range, also that case is different
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Yeah, it won't be 4D ability but it's range will be.
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the missle is traveling, the precog is affecting an infinite multiverse all at once
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Pain needs to actually send an evidence that multiple different alternate futures don't equate as multiple timelines because simply saying it does not, gives no valid argument. This is fiction, and not your scope of logic.
PrinceofPein
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- #104
I do not want to be forward, but based on your reply, you agree with the premise of the thread?
Aside from the fact that the possibilities of alternate futures are not separate space-times, the user cannot see each alternate future infinitely, but a few moments in them, so yes there is no need for prove, this is simple logic, to have 2-A range, you should be able to see a baseline 2-A structure, and to have low 2-C range you should be able to see a baseline low 2-C structure
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I wish Tier 2 revisions happened yesterday.
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But here we are arguing over alternate futures, and not possibilities. And the user can see each alternate future infinitely if there is feat for it. It's your burden to prove he can't do it in a fictional world.
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Ya, you got a point.
PrinceofPein
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- #108
alternate futures and possible futures means the same thing in almost all contexts, alternatives and other possibilities, anyway I do not k=even know why that is relevant, address the arguments or stop derailing.
Also, asking me to prove a negative? just rest
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@PrinceofPein This a 2-A range feat, there is no proof he is seeing entire past present future of the 2-A structures, will this be downgraded to Low 2-C/High 3-A?
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PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- #110
you should read my OP, this is blatantly 2-A, if the universes/timeline he is seeing are infinite in number.
Also if you are seeing the futures of infinite universes, that will be 2-A, where did I say that will not be 2-A?
please do not strawmann me, it is getting extremely annoying at this point.
this is for verses where there is a single universe and we know that, and then a character is said to be able to see infinite possible futures and but this futures are simple infinite different actions that can happen in a few moments time.
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Those are relevant since this feat will be effected by the thread outcome. Also, how am I going to address arguments that are nowhere proven?
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- #112
read the tiering system
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My bad, forget that tiering system and range description are contradicating your premise of the thread.
Anyway, this is waste of time, if you can't present a single evidence of any claim you made, then I still disagree with the thread.
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Entire premise of your thread stands on the point for a 2-A range one should be reaching entire past ,present and future of the 2-A structure which in itself is the NOT sole condition for 2-A range . One can be significantly affecting a 2-A structure and still have 2-A range.
How are those infinite futures not different timelines if it doesn't happen in that particular universe later. ?
Alternate timelines in a lot of verses exists due to different actions happening rather than what was supposed to happen. So for those verses, infinite futures/ different actions definitely means alternate timelines.
Also it's vague to make a hardcore standard for something vague that depends on context and cosmology of a verse.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- #115
we are reading different things. Since to have 2-A range you need to be able to affect a 2-A structure and this is just enforcing that.
You said it already and it is cool, it is not your evaluation I need.
no that is not the premise of the thread, which is why I said you should read my OP, as you have been strawmanning from the start.
I do not even know what to say.
You get to a two way street, and you take the first one and not the second one, so you are telling me that since there is a possibility of you taking the second street, then there must be another timeline created already where you took the second street. or you are holding a dice in your hand and there is a possibility of you getting any random 6 number, but you casted it and got one, so that means that there are timelines must exists out there where you got different numbers in each since all 6 were a possibility? there is a difference between possible futures and actual timelines, stop mixing it up.
that is called MWI, you need to prove the verse operates on it
To explain better
I have precognition, Someone is running towards me and I see 15 different ways in which he can strike me, does that mean a timeline is created for all those 15 times? does that grant me 2-C precog range now? since I could see 15 different futures that may happen.
that is the premise of this thread, stop strawmanning and mxing it up
Yes, I said this already, please read my posts, for verses which operates on MWI, then seeing those futures means different timelines are actively created
it is called contexts for a reason and case by case basis. And I am not making the standard, I am just correcting something that should have be done years ago
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If it's just seeing singular actions with an infinite variable I don't think that qualifies as 2-A with our revisions regarding timelines and separate universe structures.
Trihexa102
He/Him- 800
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I agree , sounds logical from reading through the Op and thread.
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No, the ability need to reach 2-A range, yes indeed you are reading something else.
And this is not staff thread, and all your claims are none proved as far.
I am nowhere strawmanning when your claim is that to get 2-A range, you need to effect the structure, which is the reason why AP and range are not even dependent on each other.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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- Thread starter
- #119
same thing
well the two who have commented understands, I just need you to stop derailing.
I do not need to prove jack here. literally the system
That was not addressed to you, at least read that something properly.
And while reach and affect can be used depending on context, my claim is not to affect 2-A strucutre but to reach it, read my points properly, in fact the term I use is "see" which is the premise of this thread.
So now please stop clogging up the thread with comments that are derailing or address my posts
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Range isn't an absolute quantity as far as Battleboarding goes.
There are different types of range for different purposes measured in different methods and styles.
Whether it's straight linear travel distance for some physical phenomena, angular coverage of some attack, radius of an AoE attack, whether an attack is summoned or formed instantly in equidistant mannern inside a field or is it fired from origin point.
There's lateral distance of range for how many and how much volume of space you can see with any sort of observation hax or technique like info analytics or prediction, or maybe the range is also needed to be defined in temporal sense for much time backward you can use your psychometry or retrocognition. There's the resolution and finesse of your vision as well.
Your range can also be discreet and simultaneously be long range, like watching someone 100 Googleplex universes away on same spot and time you are standing in a parallel universe inside a multiverse, but otherwise being completely blind and oblivious to something that goes in next room from you.
There's higher dimensional aspect to consider if that exists.
Point is, is instead of standardising something of such variance that applications and cases of precognition or fate hax or any ethereal hax for that matter change significantly accross various pieces of fiction.
Why not just keep things case by case limited to CRTs of individual verses like we currently do. I have faith that most of the time any thread will have fair analysis and decision from members on any CRT to decide range and smurfness of precog and fate hax etc.
There are different types of range for different purposes measured in different methods and styles.
Whether it's straight linear travel distance for some physical phenomena, angular coverage of some attack, radius of an AoE attack, whether an attack is summoned or formed instantly in equidistant mannern inside a field or is it fired from origin point.
There's lateral distance of range for how many and how much volume of space you can see with any sort of observation hax or technique like info analytics or prediction, or maybe the range is also needed to be defined in temporal sense for much time backward you can use your psychometry or retrocognition. There's the resolution and finesse of your vision as well.
Your range can also be discreet and simultaneously be long range, like watching someone 100 Googleplex universes away on same spot and time you are standing in a parallel universe inside a multiverse, but otherwise being completely blind and oblivious to something that goes in next room from you.
There's higher dimensional aspect to consider if that exists.
Point is, is instead of standardising something of such variance that applications and cases of precognition or fate hax or any ethereal hax for that matter change significantly accross various pieces of fiction.
Why not just keep things case by case limited to CRTs of individual verses like we currently do. I have faith that most of the time any thread will have fair analysis and decision from members on any CRT to decide range and smurfness of precog and fate hax etc.
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