18 MCU Thor High-Tier Coincidences (Not Feats!)

[NameyMcname2024]

A list of 18 high-tier coincidences that do not count as feats for MCU Thor:

1. Selvig's book says Mjolnir's creation caused a star to explode -- same book being correct about existence of Asgard, Bifrost, Thor, Odin, Loki, Heimdall, Baldur, Mjonir created at a star

2. Jane says the Bifrost produced gravitational lensing sufficient to reveal multiple constellations not in Earth's galactic quadrant (IRL this typically requires a galaxy's worth of mass)

3. Bifrost produces physical storm on Earth when its energy beam is entirely light years away, average cloud weighs 550 tons, so Bifrost generated FTL infinite mass-energy equivalent

4. When Loki tries to destroy Jotunheim (racial self-hatred having bastard) the Bifrost beam sucks in dozens of white dots that look like stars

5. Nick Fury compares the Bifrost to the "unlimited power" of the Space Stone as Tesseract in Thor 1 post-credits scene, after Selvig mentions the Foster Theory

6. Odin casually instantly turns his dead wife's body into a seven star constellation, and can teleport Thor with dark energy, but lacks the power to instantly restore the Bifrost

7. Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh says on director's commentary that part or all of the universe was at risk, and says on extras that Mjolnir has power of galactic nuclear explosion

8. Thor endures final Reality Stone blast from Malekith who was destroying the universe in 8 minutes max, so 100B galaxies / 480 seconds = 208M galaxies of energy at Thor in 1 second

9. MCU boss Kevin Feige says on Thor 2 commentary Malekith knows how to use the Aether / Reality Stone "and how to harness all its power" = universe level power

10. Odin's "Book of Yggdrasil" in Thor 2 has real life Runes language that compares Bifrost to Big Bang energy, which wrecked Dark Elves and created Infinity Stones

11. Hela crushes Mjolnir which tanked above feats, then Bifrost hurls Thor MFTL past millions of stars = infinite mass punch in MCU where only Space Stone also powers FTL speed

12. Thanos uses Power Stone to blow up Thor, and a ship that already tanked the destructive singularity of a wormhole with a neutron star collapsing inside it

13. Thor reignites the dead neutron star Nidavellir, which Thor said had gone out, Rocket said his pod could not even turn the rings, and Eitri congratulated Thor for doing

14. Thor survives what Eitri calls the full force of a star, and since a neutron star core can reach nearly 1B degrees Celsius (sun core = 15M degrees), that would be full force of star indeed

15. Thor hurls Stormbreaker through full IG beam after Thanos almost got beat on Titan and Wanda held him off while busting Mind Stone, so Thanos knows they are powerful / capable

16. Thor one-shots Zeus, leader of most powerful creator gods in universe including 2 Celestials, beings who create stars, Zeus who vaporized Thor's armor which survived the above feats

17. Thor's lightning overpowers Gorr as hundreds of stars move in space, Gorr the only known superpowered force onsite with reason to move stars, to create shadows for his monsters

18. Stormbreaker, which Thor helped create and possesses, transports Thor (plus Jane and Gorr who die there) to another dimension and to Eternity, living embodiment of the universe

 

[Golden_Void]

Once you get to point 6, the points start debunking themselves

 

[ByAsura]

I won't cover some of this stuff, like the gravitational lensing (that's been addressed) and the reality stone (that's being covered in another thread by you).

1. Selvig's book says Mjolnir's creation caused a star to explode -- same book being correct about existence of Asgard, Bifrost, Thor, Odin, Loki, Heimdall, Baldur, Mjonir created at a star

Selvig's book says the star that forged it (not just any random star) exploded, which we know to be false because of Thor and Avengers: Infinity War. A book about mythology being broadly accurate about characters whom the mythology is based on doesn't necessarily make every detail correct.

4. When Loki tries to destroy Jotunheim (racial self-hatred having bastard) the Bifrost beam sucks in dozens of white dots that look like stars

7. Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh says on director's commentary that part or all of the universe was at risk, and says on extras that Mjolnir has power of galactic nuclear explosion

17. Thor's lightning overpowers Gorr as hundreds of stars move in space, Gorr the only known superpowered force onsite with reason to move stars, to create shadows for his monsters

Provide scans/video.

5. Nick Fury compares the Bifrost to the "unlimited power" of the Space Stone as Tesseract in Thor 1 post-credits scene, after Selvig mentions the Foster Theory

Unless I'm missing something, what Nick Fury said is that phenomena like dimensional travel aren't unprecedented, and certain things (like the Bifrost and Cube) belong to history and legend. He didn't really compare their power in any useable way.

Also, we've seen that the Space Stone does have limits. Given that HYDRA were tapping the Cosmic Cube for vast amounts of energy in Captain America: The First Avenger, it's more likely that unlimited = perpetual energy, not infinite energy.

6. Odin casually instantly turns his dead wife's body into a seven star constellation, and can teleport Thor with dark energy, but lacks the power to instantly restore the Bifrost

I think this is a legitimate point, at least from what I can remember.

11. Hela crushes Mjolnir which tanked above feats, then Bifrost hurls Thor MFTL past millions of stars = infinite mass punch in MCU where only Space Stone also powers FTL speed

AP at FTL speed is considered unquantifiable by the wiki.

The difference between the MCU and DC here is that DC actually established that Speed Force users and Kryptonians can use FTL punches to produce such massive levels of power. We don't automatically assume those rules for every verse, since they have their own about FTL travel; it has to be a stated verse mechanic.

tanked the destructive singularity of a wormhole with a neutron star collapsing inside it

Please clarify what you're referring to?

18. Stormbreaker, which Thor helped create and possesses, transports Thor (plus Jane and Gorr who die there) to another dimension and to Eternity, living embodiment of the universe

As Qwasedf said, this isn't AP.

Also, Thor only helped create the uru that Stormbreaker was forged from. Its power comes from magics (much like Mjolnir), otherwise Stormbreaker would only be on par with Skurge's armour and Groot.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

I won't cover some of this stuff, like the gravitational lensing (that's been addressed) and the reality stone (that's being covered in another thread by you).

Selvig's book says the star that forged it (not just any random star) exploded, which we know to be false because of Thor and Avengers: Infinity War. A book about mythology being broadly accurate about characters whom the mythology is based on doesn't necessarily make every detail correct.



Provide scans/video.

Unless I'm missing something, what Nick Fury said is that phenomena like dimensional travel aren't unprecedented, and certain things (like the Bifrost and Cube) belong to history and legend. He didn't really compare their power in any useable way.

Also, we've seen that the Space Stone does have limits. Given that HYDRA were tapping the Cosmic Cube for vast amounts of energy in Captain America: The First Avenger, it's more likely that unlimited = perpetual energy, not infinite energy.

I think this is a legitimate point, at least from what I can remember.

AP at FTL speed is considered unquantifiable by the wiki.

The difference between the MCU and DC here is that DC actually established that Speed Force users and Kryptonians can use FTL punches to produce such massive levels of power. We don't automatically assume those rules for every verse, since they have their own about FTL travel; it has to be a stated verse mechanic.

Please clarify what you're referring to?

As Qwasedf said, this isn't AP.

Also, Thor only helped create the uru that Stormbreaker was forged from. Its power comes from magics (much like Mjolnir), otherwise Stormbreaker would only be on par with Skurge's armour and Groot.

I'll only address the things that align with the kinds of evidence VSB has accepted in the past for other characters:

1. Selvig's book: Infinity War shows that Mjolnir was in fact forged at Nidavellir, which Thor defines onscreen as a neutron star. NASA says that neutron stars are the remnants of supermassive stars that exploded, beginning with mass 8x the sun. So Selvig's book is accurate about the nature of the star where Mjolnir was forged. There is no reason to doubt its accuracy on the single point of whether Mjolnir's creation caused the explosion, since the book is accurate about everything else.

https://esahubble.org/wordbank/neutron-star/

2. Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh's commentary, at 1:36:36

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE

“Two brothers whose conflict now is potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe but certainly Jotunheim.”

3. You've acknowledged that Odin's star creation and dark energy teleportation feats are a legitimate point since he could not instantly recreate the Bifrost.

4. Inifinity War shows Thor survive Thanos doing this to the Statesman:

After the Stateman already tanked going through this:

Full Thor Ragnarok dialogue at 1:25:40

https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=37720

"That looks like a collapsing neutron star inside of an Einstein-Rosen Bridge.

We need another ship. That will tear mine to pieces.

She's right. We need one that can withstand the geodetic strain from the singularity."

The star collapsing inside the wormhole means the wormhole's singularity is at least more powerful than the star.

----

That's 4 points that in any reasonable examination merit an upgrade.

 

[ByAsura]

1. Selvig's book: Infinity War shows that Mjolnir was in fact forged at Nidavellir

I'm not arguing against it being forged in Nidavellir (that'd be like arguing liquid water isn't a liquid, frankly). My argument is that Nidavellir probably wasn't destroyed by Mjolnir's forging; it was already dying by that time according to Odin (implying that Nidavellir was a dying neutron star at the time, like in A:IW), and we see that it's an intact forge during Infinity War.

2. Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh's commentary, at 1:36:36

Sounds good, then.

3. You've acknowledged that Odin's star creation and dark energy teleportation feats are a legitimate point since he could not instantly recreate the Bifrost.

Which still doesn't scale it to the Space Stone, regardless, but I get your point.

After the Stateman already tanked going through this:

Seems good then, though I'm not sure what the actual rating would be here due to our standards of gravitational energy feats. You might want to request a calc (I'd even recommend personally contacting a Calc Group Member from this thread, as long as they don't mind).

 

[NameyMcname2024]

I'm not arguing against it being forged in Nidavellir (that'd be like arguing liquid water isn't a liquid, frankly). My argument is that Nidavellir wasn't destroyed by Mjolnir's forging; it was already dying by that time according to Odin (implying that Nidavellir was a dying neutron star, like in A:IW), and we see that it's an intact forge during Infinity War.

Sounds good, then.

Which still doesn't scale it to the Space Stone, regardless, but I get your point.

Seems good then, though I'm not sure what the actual rating would be here due to our standards of gravitational energy feats. You might want to request a calc (I'd even recommend personally contacting a Calc Group Member from this thread, as long as they don't mind).

Will do. Just one more thing I want to point out is that, by definition, a supernova itself is what causes the supermassive star to become dying in the form of a neutron star. So Mjolnir causing the original supermassive star to explode during creation would be the actual onset of the death throes. NASA states this:

https://science.nasa.gov/missions/h...s-may-unravel-400-year-old-supernova-mystery/

"In 1604, Kepler saw the last supernova observed in our Milky Way galaxy, which he documented two years later in his book De Stella Nova, published in Prague in 1606. The explosion of the dying star was initially as bright as Mars and could be seen with the naked eye."

https://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/objects/heapow/archive/compact_objects/nseos_nicer.html

"Neutron stars are tiny objects with extremely high densities created when a star at least eight times more massive then the sun dies. The dying star first collapses, and the region near the very center of the star gets crushed by the enormous weight of the rest of the star."

 

[ByAsura]

I was thinking that myself, but it's worth noting that neither Odin or Thor are old enough to live through/have lived through the lifetime of a neutron star.

However, maybe something (particularly the forging) accelerated the death of the neutron star, now that I'm thinking about it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Seems good then, though I'm not sure what the actual rating would be here due to our standards of gravitational energy feats.

Geodetic Strain is about how the Earth deforms from plate tectonics, so I'm not sure how it applies in the situation.

But for the feat jumping into a worm hole to another location isn't something you could reliably calc.

For the thread yeah, you're missing mitigating context for a lot of those statements, contradictions un the work and are trying to propose that a quarter of the franchise should be 3-A. I'm not really seeing that happening.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Geodetic Strain is about how the Earth deforms from plate tectonics, so I'm not sure how it applies in the situation.

But for the feat jumping into a worm hole to another location isn't something you could reliably calc.

For the thread yeah, you're missing mitigating context for a lot of those statements, contradictions un the work and are trying to propose that a quarter of the franchise should be 3-A. I'm not really seeing that happening.

What are the debunks of these two points?:

1. Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh's commentary, at 1:36:36

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE

“Two brothers whose conflict now is potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe but certainly Jotunheim.”

2. VSB acknowledges that Odin casually instantly turns his dead wife's body into a seven star constellation, and can teleport Thor with dark energy, but lacks the power to instantly restore the Bifrost permanently. Btw, the scan here says he used dark energy without the Bifrost, not to channel the Bifrost temporarily.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What are the debunks of these two points?:

That the Bifrost despite being on for multiple planets only destabilizes rather than destroys a planet and at no point in any material does the Bifrost threaten to destroy the universe itself.

In addition the commentary is also talking about their relationship and how their fighting with each other is now having catastrophic ramifications because of it. I'm sure you can read the statement in additional ways more or less.

Casually instantly

This is word salad

VSB acknowledges that Odin casually instantly turns his dead wife's body into a seven star constellation, and can teleport Thor with dark energy,

VSBW states that Odin is able to create Stellar objects. But the key point there is that Odin is never proven to have a Universal Energy System and just because one power can do something doesn't mean that another power is of the same scope.

Just because Odin can create some stars doesn't mean he's able to channel the Bifrost without a medium or repair an object without outside assistance.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

That the Bifrost despite being on for multiple planets only destabilizes rather than destroys a planet and at no point in any material does the Bifrost threaten to destroy the universe itself.

In addition the commentary is also talking about their relationship and how their fighting with each other is now having catastrophic ramifications because of it. I'm sure you can read the statement in additional ways more or less.


This is word salad


VSBW states that Odin is able to create Stellar objects. But the key point there is that Odin is never proven to have a Universal Energy System and just because one power can do something doesn't mean that another power is of the same scope.

Just because Odin can create some stars doesn't mean he's able to channel the Bifrost without a medium or repair an object without outside assistance.

That's only if one refuses to acknowledge that these moving white dots look like dozens of stars.



Kenneth Branagh's statement that part or all of the universe was at risk aligns with these being stars spread out by light years and getting sucked in. Since Jotunheim had yet to be destroyed, the Bifrost was still building in power. At the same time, the Bifrost was causing a physical storm on Earth, when its energy beam was light years from Earth.

Again, the Bifrost had yet to destroy Jotunheim so its energy was still building.

Director's statement that part or all of the universe was at risk aligns with visual of stars getting sucked in from light years away and the Bifrost's mere ambient energy affecting a planet light years away.

This all happened in a span of 5 minutes of screen time. Damage obviously would have kept building left unchecked.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's only if one refuses to acknowledge that these moving white dots look like dozens of stars.

You can directly compare Loki's body to the white dots on the same plane and they're similar in size. They're not stars or if they are they're one of the MCU's tiny stars.

As with the other threads, I belive you approached the CRT with the mindset that Thor is universal and are taking whatever you can to get that result, rather than being more open about the actual medium.

Anyways this isn't a CRT since not change is being proposed, so unless you have an actual proposal I'll move this to the general section.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

You can directly compare Loki's body to the white dots on the same plane and they're similar in size. They're not stars or if they are they're one of the MCU's tiny stars.

As with the other threads, I belive you approached the CRT with the mindset that Thor is universal and are taking whatever you can to get that result, rather than being more open about the actual medium.

Anyways this isn't a CRT since not change is being proposed, so unless you have an actual proposal I'll move this to the general section.

There is never evidence of reliable measurement for Loki's in-verse spatial distance to the wormhole in comparison to the white dots.

Also, can you explain to me why the MCU must have an explicit statement that it abides special relativity laws that mass traveling at light speed requires infinite energy? It makes much more sense that the verse must not violate that rule.

Especially since the MCU only shows FTL speed done by Infinity Stone (to Mar-Vell's ships, and to Captain Marvel via such a ship) and the Bifrost (Earth storm at climax of Thor 1, Thor hurling past millions of stars in seconds in Ragnarok, etc). Everything else is a wormhole, black hole, Jump Point, Sling Ring, etc. Endgame clarifies that the Benatar uses a jump point instead of going FTL speed.

Given that the MCU also has real life science advisors, and it shows many real world physics equations onscreen (Iron Man 2, Thor 2, Ant-Man and the Wasp, WandaVison, Thor 4), the much more logical conclusion is that the MCU abides FTL physics laws. After all, the plots of Avengers, Thor 1-3, GotG 2, and Captain Marvel all depict the lack of FTL speed travel as problematic for the characters. Literally no civilization in the MCU is shown to have FTL ships, even after Mar-Vell's invention.

But feel free to move this post to whatever section you want.

 

[Excellence616]

What is OP proposing?

Upgrade?

 

[NameyMcname2024]

What is OP proposing?

Upgrade?

I propose MCU Thor's profile link to this thread, with the following statement:

"Many of Thor's feats have evidence to suggest his power level is significantly but unquantifiably higher than Large Planet Level."

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Especially since the MCU only shows FTL speed done by Infinity Stone (to Mar-Vell's ships, and to Captain Marvel via such a ship)

You know that Captain Marvel has MFTL+ travel speed right? And despite her powers come from an explosion of the space stone energy, we have no reason to assume she got the powers of the space stone even more after seeing Kahori who actually got the powers of the space stone.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

You know that Captain Marvel has MFTL+ travel speed right? And despite her powers come from an explosion of the space stone energy, we have no reason to assume she got the powers of the space stone even more after seeing Kahori who actually got the powers of the space stone

Does What If? scaling even apply to the Sacred Timeline? If we're going to bring Kahhori into this, shouldn't we first address that Captain Carter, who actually has a VSB profile, held all the stones in her hand in that same episode to bust Strange, yet Captain Carter is still ranked as 8-C? Has VSB even settled on a tier for Kahhori? I can't find her official profile.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Does What It? scaling even apply to the Sacred Timeline? If we're going to bring Kahhori into this, shouldn't we first address that Captain Carter, who actually has a VSB profile, held all the stones in her hand in that same episode to bust Strange, yet Captain Carter is still ranked as 8-C? Has VSB even settled on a tier for Kahhori? I can't find her official profile.

At no point did i mentioned Kahori as means to scale, I only mentioned how despite both Captain Marvel and Kahori got powers from the tesseract both got different powers and so Captain Marvel's ability to MFTL+ travel is not an ability of the space stone just an ability that was generated from the space stone

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Does What If? scaling even apply to the Sacred Timeline? If we're going to bring Kahhori into this, shouldn't we first address that Captain Carter, who actually has a VSB profile, held all the stones in her hand in that same episode to bust Strange, yet Captain Carter is still ranked as 8-C? Has VSB even settled on a tier for Kahhori? I can't find her official profile.

Also Captain Carter's profile doesn't have a key for her with infinity stones maybe no one found it relevant to add it but regardless she is very clearly not 8-C with the infinity stones

 

[NameyMcname2024]

At no point did i mentioned Kahori as means to scale, I only mentioned how despite both Captain Marvel and Kahori got powers from the tesseract both got different powers and so Captain Marvel's ability to MFTL+ travel is not an ability of the space stone just an ability that was generated from the space stone

How is this a meaningful distinction, since the ultimate source of Carol's powers is clearly the Space Stone, and Captain Marvel's script says:

"The core that she found would have powered a light-speed ship"

https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=37705

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

How is this a meaningful distinction, since the ultimate source of Carol's powers is clearly the Space Stone, and Captain Marvel's script says:

"The core that she found would have powered a light-speed ship"

https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=37705

The source of her powers was the tesseract but her powers aren't using the energy of the tesseract, the same way Gamma radiation doesn't have rage power but Hulk does. The same way mind stone gave Quicksilver his speed but mind stone doesn't have super speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There is never evidence of reliable measurement for Loki's in-verse spatial distance to the wormhole in comparison to the white dots.

You see them sucked to the same point and where Loki is depositited was a space near the Black Order. There weren't dozens of stars within that asteroid belt.

Also, can you explain to me why the MCU must have an explicit statement that it abides special relativity laws that mass traveling at light speed requires infinite energy?

All KE and Relativistic Energy Calcs rely on realistic mathematics. Real mathematics has lightspeed = infinite energy for an object with mass. You would need to provide evidence that physics operates differently in-universe for numbers of SoL/FTL to be useable.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Oh my god dude please stop.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

You see them sucked to the same point and where Loki is depositited was a space near the Black Order. There weren't dozens of stars within that asteroid belt.


All KE and Relativistic Energy Calcs rely on realistic mathematics. Real mathematics has lightspeed = infinite energy for an object with mass. You would need to provide evidence that physics operates differently in-universe for numbers of SoL/FTL to be useable.

The white dots are shown onscreen to return from the wormhole as it dissipates, so they would not have followed Loki through the other side.

But feel free to lock this whenever you want.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Unless I'm missing something, what Nick Fury said is that phenomena like dimensional travel aren't unprecedented, and certain things (like the Bifrost and Cube) belong to history and legend. He didn't really compare their power in any useable way.

Also, we've seen that the Space Stone does have limits. Given that HYDRA were tapping the Cosmic Cube for vast amounts of energy in Captain America: The First Avenger, it's more likely that unlimited = perpetual energy, not infinite energy.

Sorry, I did want to clarify something about the Nick Fury statement. Selvig tells him the Bifrost is a gateway to another dimension, then calls that unprecedented. Then Fury indicates that's false. But nobody on Earth at the time had ever seen the Tesseract do that.

Red Skull got beamed to Vormir and Cap told Peggy he died. Nothing shown onscreen in Red Skull's research provided proof the Tesseract conducts interdimensional travel. So for SHIELD / HYDRA to know the Tesseract could do so, that could only come from analyzing its energy readings and making an educated guess.

This is why Fury recruited Selvig. For example, the Bifrost and the Tesseract give off similar energy readings. We know that for a fact, since Thor 1 shows the Bifrost generate gamma radiation, and that was how Banner tracked the Tesseract in Avengers.

Finally, we know for a fact that each Infinity Stone has universe+ level power, and that Fury already knew Captain Marvel beat the Kree fleet then flew MTFL across the galaxy. So within the MCU narrative / continuity, the Fury-Selvig conversation at the end of Thor 1 is about comparing the energy of the Bifrost and the Tesseract.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Finally, for the record, we have:

Thor tanks a Bifrost explosion where director Kenneth Branagh said “Two brothers whose conflict now is potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe but certainly Jotunheim" while white dots that look like stars spread across light years get sucked in then spat out (1:36:36):

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE

---

Thor survive a Reality Stone explosion where MCU head producer Kevin Feige said "Malekith knows how to use it and how to harness all its power" which occurred as the universe was about to end in at most eight minutes as stated by Jane and Selvig (1:28:08)

https://mega.nz/file/zUVQwKyL#aT4q65tXAuUbwl9-TaX1vnB9esNO8a9JSdRc7j68jgE

---

Thor hurl Stormbreaker through the all Six Stones full IG beam to impale Thanos when there is no in-verse or WoG statement that Thanos was holding back, and no logical reason to hold back after he failed to kill Thor with the Power Stone and saw Wanda bust the Mind Stone

 

[ByAsura]

Geodetic Strain is about how the Earth deforms from plate tectonics, so I'm not sure how it applies in the situation.

I'm pretty sure he's just mixing gravimetric and geodetic. It's kind of immaterial, though, if we're just calculating the strength of the gravity affecting them from a distance anyway.

But for the feat jumping into a worm hole to another location isn't something you could reliably calc.

The object is inside of the wormhole, so they'd still have to physically encounter its gravity.

For the thread yeah, you're missing mitigating context for a lot of those statements, contradictions un the work and are trying to propose that a quarter of the franchise should be 3-A. I'm not really seeing that happening.

I agree that they're not 3-A (and especially not High 3-A). I'm just saying the statements are fine on their own merits.

Sorry, I did want to clarify something about the Nick Fury statement. Selvig tells him the Bifrost is a gateway to another dimension, then calls that unprecedented. Then Fury indicates that's false. But nobody on Earth at the time had ever seen the Tesseract do that.

Actually, according to the Wakanda files, S.H.I.E.L.D did want to use the Tesseract for similar wormhole research, and they at least had an idea of the fact that it was related to the Asgardians due to HYDRA.

My point isn't specifically that they're capable of interdimensional travel, it's that they're legendary and capable of insane feats of power, like interdimensional travel in the Bifrost's case, meaning what the Bifrost can do isn't totally unprecedented.

Even ignoring that, Zola's research (which would logically be inferior's to S.H.I.E.L.D and Stark's) concluded that the Tesseract could potentially destroy every hostile capital on Earth. And, as you say yourself, Fury also knows that Captain Marvel's abilities were powered by it. So, they know about its lesser capabilities.

The fact is, there's nothing within the comparison that suggests they're equal, just that they're birds of a feather (otherworldly phenomena that's advanced to the point of basically being supernatural).

So for SHIELD / HYDRA to know the Tesseract could do so, that could only come from analyzing its energy readings and making an educated guess.

Same with the Bifrost, which substantiates my point that he wasn't directly comparing their power, hence why I already made this point.

we know for a fact that each Infinity Stone has universe+ level power

Firstly, no, we know that the Stones have that level of power collectively.

Secondly, S.H.I.E.L.D don't know that because they can't actually use the Tesseract and just have to rely on data, as you yourself admit.

So within the MCU narrative / continuity, the Fury-Selvig conversation at the end of Thor 1 is about comparing the energy of the Bifrost and the Tesseract.

Yet there's literally no direct comparison (i.e, 'their outputs are similar') within the conversation, it's just 'Gateways to other dimensions are unprecedented', 'Not really. There's things belong to history and legend, like the Tesseract.'

It's meaningless in terms of scaling, especially since S.H.I.E.L.D wasn't aware of their true power.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

I'm pretty sure he's just mixing gravimetric and geodetic. It's kind of immaterial, though, if we're just calculating the strength of the gravity affecting them from a distance anyway.

Not really. Say, for example, there's a wormhole with a mass of 3 solar masses, but you have to get close enough to pass through its aperture.

I agree that they're not 3-A (and especially not High 3-A). I'm just saying the statements are fine on their own merits.

That's completely irrelevant to my point. The point isn't specifically that they're capable of interdimensional travel, it's that they're legendary and capable of insane feats of power, like interdimensional travel in the Bifrost's case (meaning what the Bifrost can do isn't unprecedented).

Even Zola's research (which would logically be inferior's to S.H.I.E.L.D and Stark's) concluded that the Tesseract could potentially destroy every hostile capital on Earth. And, as you say yourself, Fury also knows that Captain Marvel's abilities were powered by it. So, they know about its lesser capabilities.

The fact is, there's nothing within the comparison that suggests they're equal, just that they're both of a type (advanced to the point of basically being supernatural).

Same with the Bifrost, which substantiates my point that he wasn't directly comparing their power, hence why I already made this point.

Firstly, no, we know that the Stones have that level of power collectively.

Secondly, S.H.I.E.L.D don't know that because they can't actually use the Tesseract and just have to rely on data, as you yourself admit.

Yet there's literally no direct comparison (i.e, 'their outputs are similar') within the conversation, it's just 'Gateways to other dimensions are unprecedented', 'Not really. There's things belong to history and legend, like the Tesseract.'

It's meaningless in terms of scaling.

Wait, just to go back to the actual dialogue:

https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=37719

FURY: I've been hearing about the New Mexico situation. Your work has impressed a lot of people who are much smarter than I am.

SELVIG: I have a lot to work with. The Foster Theory. A gateway to another dimension. It's unprecedented. Isn't it?

FURY: Legend tells us one thing, history, another. But every now and then, we find something that belongs to both.

SELVIG: What is it?

FURY: Power, Doctor. If we can figure out how to tap it, maybe unlimited power.

---

So your argument is that Fury's comparison ends at his line about legend / history, and my argument is that Fury's comparison covers all of Fury's lines here.

The evidence for my argument is that Selvig replies to Fury's legend / history line by asking "What is it?" and Fury says "maybe unlimited power."

So "maybe unlimited power" is the actual definition of the thing that Fury says proves the Bifrost is not unprecedented.

As for your claim that we don't know the Space Stone is universe+, in Infinity War Wong straight up says that the Infinity Stones each "control an essential aspect of existence", in this case Space.

https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=36756

Wong doesn't say "influence" or "tap" or the like. He says "control." We know the Time Stone can trap universe+ Dormammu (Doctor Strange 1). We know the Reality Stone can end the entire universe (Thor 2). There is zero reason to think the Space Stone is less powerful.

 

[ByAsura]

Firstly, read the edits I've made to the comment. It actually just refers to wormhole travel.

Secondly, that specific interpretation only makes sense because you're just showing the dialogue; the scene makes it pretty clear that he's just referring to the Stone as power. And I've already addressed the definition of unlimited power.

Lastly, controlling an essential aspect of existence doesn't mean controlling all of that essential aspect on a universal scale, and Dormammu was assuming a form. But that doesn't matter, regardless, because like I've said a million times, nobody knew the Stones' full capability at the time.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Firstly, read the edits I've made to the comment. It actually just refers to wormhole travel.

Secondly, that specific interpretation only makes sense because you've abridged the scene and dialogue. And I've already addressed the definition of unlimited power.

Lastly, controlling an essential aspect of existence doesn't mean controlling all of that essential aspect on a universal scale.

The link to the Wakanda Files you gave actually attributes all conjecture about the Tesseract opening a wormhole to Selvig:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/7379d13a-46b7-46e4-96e2-c6aeb3231297

When it reference's Cap's statement, the page just says the Council thinks the Tesseract can do more than be a weapon. Your link literally says Selvig, after researching the Tesseract, is the one who has the idea the Tesseract can open a wormhole, due to his Bifrost research. This File had to occur after the Selvig-Fury conversation because that scene is when Selvig first saw the Tesseract.

 

[ByAsura]

Anyway, you don't seem to grasp my point.

If they're just going off the fact that both phenomena have the ability to create wormholes, they're not actually comparing their level of energy ouput/firepower/ability to destroy the space-time continuum like you spoke about, aren't they?

 

[NameyMcname2024]

You don't seem to grasp my point.

If they're just comparing the fact that both phenomena have the ability to create wormholes, they're not actually comparing their level of energy ouput/firepower/ability to destroy the space-time continuum, are they?

1. Once you acknowledge that the Wakanda Files image had to occur after the Fury-Selvig scene at the end of Thor 1, that means there is zero evidence Fury / SHIELD / the World Security Council already thought the Tesseract could open wormholes.

2. That in turn means Fury's statement about the Bifrost having precedence cannot be about wormholes.

3. In terms of story narrative, linking the Bifrost to the Tesseract by mutual scientific study is itself evidence that they are similar in power. Especially when the power of one of them is mentioned in the scene linking them.

4. You still have given no reason why Fury's comparison would not be his full statement, about both legend / history and "maybe unlimited power." Please explain why there's any evidence that Fury is talking about one and not both.

 

[ByAsura]

1. Once you acknowledge that the Wakanda Files image had to occur after the Fury-Selvig scene at the end of Thor 1, that means there is zero evidence Fury / SHIELD / the World Security Council already thought the Tesseract could open wormholes.

My guy, the same file says that he was literally commissioned because of his knowledge of wormholes and Norse Myth. It doesn't matter that the file happened after the conversation because he was only approached in the first place because they already knew about its ability to make wormholes.

Edit: I forgot that CM's post credit scene takes place after Thor's post-credit scene. My mistake. But, still, that doesn't imply parity in terms of power, just that they wanted his knowledge of unusual forms of science.

3. In terms of story narrative, linking the Bifrost to the Tesseract by mutual scientific study is itself evidence that they are similar in power.

No it doesn't. That's like saying a handheld energy weapon is as powerful as a GRB because S.H.I.E.L.D wants a GRB expert to help them study a weapon that works on the same principles.

4. You still have given no reason why Fury's comparison would not be his full statement, about both legend / history and "maybe unlimited power." Please explain why there's any evidence that Fury is talking about one and not both.

My guy, you're the one making the claim. We know for a fact that Fury is referring to them being both historical and legendary (which you're even admitting here), so it's actually up to you to prove that it's also referring to unlimited power via burden of proof.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

My guy, the same file says that he was literally commissioned because of his knowledge of wormholes and Norse Myth. It doesn't matter that the file happened after the conversation because he was only approached in the first place because they already knew about its ability to make wormholes.

No it doesn't. That's like saying a gamma ray burst is as powerful as a solar flare because S.H.I.E.L.D wanted a solar flare expert to help them study a near-Earth GRB.

My guy, you're the one making the claim. We know for a fact that Fury is referring to them being both historical and legendary (which you're even admitting here), so it's actually up to you to prove that it's also referring to unlimited power via burden of proof.

That Wakanda File does not say they already knew about the Tesseract's potential to make wormholes. That is flat out false. It's simply not on that page.

Due to this fact, which you provided, Fury was not saying the precedent is wormholes. Selvig later provided that connection, after seeing the Tesseract.

(Did SHIELD want a solar flare expert to help study near-Earth GRB, or is that just a hypothetical on your part? If you mean Jane Foster, she already became a wormhole expert by then, a wormhole that emits gamma radiation.)

The Bifrost and Tesseract both being otherworldly stuff of legend is not enough to call it a precedent. You know what else is otherworldly stuff of legend? Meteors. King Tut has a meteorite dagger, and so does the Kaaba. They do not have astrophysics studying their cosmic power. Why? Because they don't have that power.

https://www.astronomy.com/science/a-new-origin-story-for-king-tuts-meteorite-dagger/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

The power is the point. Your Wakanda File even says "the goal is to examine the Tesseract as a power source." Selvig can only be relevant if he has experience with comparable power.

The proof Fury is referring to power comparison is precisely that Selvig asked what the cube is and Fury said "maybe unlimited power."

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, I edited the post. I mistakenly believed that CA's post-credit scene predated Thor's post-credit scene.

It's a hypothetical, on my part.

That's an absolutely abysmal comparison. What I said was otherworldly forms of science. In the Wakanda files, it's stated that the Stones break every known scientific principle, so what they're looking for is people who are familiar with unconventional forms of science to analyse the Cube.

Anyway, the Wakanda files also confirm that S.H.I.E.L.D were trying to continue Stark's research on copying the Tesseract's ability to emit energy (like Tony managed in Iron Man II). That's what they're trying to do, and it's supported by the fact that they commissioned Stark to fit their technology with self-sustaining Arc Reactor technology.

• BANNER: It's powered by Stark Reactors, self-sustaining energy source. That building will run itself for what, a year?

Clearly it's about perpetual and/or self-sustaining energy, which makes far more sense given the definition of unlimited, and the fact that they didn't know the Stone even could produce infinite power at the time.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Yes, I edited the post. I mistakenly believed that CM's post-credit scene predated Thor.

It's a hypothetical.

That's an absolutely abysmal comparison. What I said was otherworldly forms of science. In the Wakanda files, it's stated that the Stones break every known scientific principle, so what they're looking for is people who are familiar with unconventional forms of science to analyse the Cube.

Anyway, the Wakanda files also confirm that S.H.I.E.L.D were trying to continue Stark's research on copying the Tesseract's ability to emit collectable energy (like Tony managed in Iron Man II). That's what they're trying to do, and it's supported by the fact that they commissioned Stark to fit their Helicarriers with Arc Reactor technology. Clearly it's about perpetual power (which makes more sense, given the definition of unlimited), not infinite power.

So if you're acknowledging that SHIELD wanted Selvig to try and harness the Tesseract's power, then you must recognize that Selvig needed to have expertise with a comparable power source. Otherwise he would not be able to do anything. Selvig would not know how to address the math for an unlimited power source (otherwise unprecedented) unless he already had addressed the math of an unlimited power source (hence precedence).

The math is the thing. You even say the Stones "break every known scientific principle." Selvig can only be useful due to having dealt with that already.

The MCU demonstrated the lack of such relevance with Iron Man 1 ("Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps! ... Well, I'm sorry. I'm not Tony Stark."); then the presence of such relevance with Selvig himself in Thor 2 (Avengers 1 had him harness the Tesseract, Thor 2 had him create gravimetric spikes capable of resisting turning to dark matter inside the Reality Stone / Aether Storm).

Btw, Tony did not use Infinity Stone or Bifrost power to make those Helicarrier arc reactors, so that is not relevant here. In fact, perpetual arc reactors = perpetual energy would mean Selvig was unneccessary because by Thor 1 Tony already gave arc reactors to the government in the form of War Machine. So Selvig / Fury / "unlimited power" was about more than perpetual energy.

 

[ByAsura]

I could argue against everything you just said, but there's no point when The Avengers, Iron Man 2, and The Wakanda Files makes it clear that they wanted to copy the properties of the Cosmic Cube (aka, the X-element from the comic counterpart of that storyline) for self-sustaining power.

Nothing about that is infinite, and there's no point in continuing this argument further.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

I could argue against everything you just said, but there's no point when The Avengers, Iron Man 2, and The Wakanda Files makes it clear that they wanted to copy the properties of the Cosmic Cube (aka, the X-element from the comic counterpart of that storyline) for self-sustaining power.

Nothing about that is infinite, and there's no point in continuing this argument further.

Cool, lock the thread whenever you want. (Fury wanted to make WMDs, not just self-sustaining energy.)

 

[ByAsura]

Btw, Tony did not use Infinity Stone or Bifrost power to make those Helicarrier arc reactors, so that is not relevant here.

Yes he did. It's literally part of the plot of Iron Man 2 that Stark copied Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S and his father's research on the Tesseract to create an element with similar energy generation abilities for the Arc Reactor. Fury even calls it a stepping stone to the actual Tesseract in the same movie.

In fact, perpetual arc reactors = perpetual energy would mean Selvig was unneccessary because by Thor 1 Tony already gave arc reactors to the government in the form of War Machine.

The governments explicitly don't have the ability to copy the previous, non-Tesseract version of the Arc Reactor properly (let alone his new one), much to their chagrin. Again, that's literally the plot of Iron Man 2.

So Selvig / Fury / "unlimited power" was about more than perpetual energy.

Tony Stark couldn't successfully gather perpetual energy from the Arc Reactor, just self-sustaining clean energy, with the buildings in Avengers only being able to last for a year by themselves. As I said, Fury explicitly says that it's inferior in Iron Man 2.

Cool, lock the thread whenever you want. (Fury wanted to make WMDs, not just self-sustaining energy.)

I still think there's discussion to be had on your other points, like Statesman's durability.

HYDRA also made WMDs, and they were basically just city-destroying bombs.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Yes he did. It's literally part of the plot of Iron Man 2 that Stark copied Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S and his father's research on the Tesseract to create a new element similar to the Cosmic Cube. Fury even calls it a stepping stone to the actual Tesseract.

The governments don't have the ability to copy it. Again, that's literally the plot of Iron Man 2.

Tony Stark couldn't successfully gather perpetual energy from the Arc Reactor, just self-sustaining clean energy.

I still think there's discussion to be had on your other points, like Statesman's durability.

Well, if you're leaving this open, Tony used his father's Space Stone-based science to make arc reactors, not energy from the Space Stone. That's not semantics, there is a fundamental difference between knowledge and energy. Tony did not have the Space Stone on hand, like Mar-Vell for her light speed engine, when he made arc reactors.

No, the governments can't make arc reactors, but Tony gives the government arc reactors (Iron Man 2 resolves before Thor 1) and in Avengers Tony tells Bruce and Steve that he would have worked with SHIELD on arc reactor clean energy.

Tony wasn't called in because SHIELD wanted Tesseract powered WMDs, after Tony already gave them an arc reactor weapon in War Machine. SHIELD wanted something better. That's not about perpetual energy. Fury admits this in Avengers, saying Thor's destruction in New Mexico required a deterrent.

Anyway, I can be done now with you if you are done with me.