18 MCU Thor High-Tier Coincidences (Not Feats!)

[ByAsura]

That's not semantics

Saying 'well energies from the Arc Reactor isn't energy from the Space Stone' is genuinely arguing semantics here because S.H.I.E.L.D/P.E.G.A.S.U.S' goal was alternative means of energy, and these were blatant attempts to harness the Stone's powers and properties of generating power, just unsuccessful ones.

I'll lay it out again: S.H.I.E.L.D always had the ability to collect energy from the Space Stone because of HYDRA and Howard Stark. They wanted to copy the Stone's energy generating abilities by synthesizing the element (meaning they could create portable reactors, as such), but Howard Stark and Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S (a joint effort that included S.H.I.E.L.D) was largely unsuccessful at that. Then, Tony Stark created a poor (but still highly impressive) facsimile of the Tesseract from their research, which S.H.I.E.L.D were interested in because it was a stepping stone to recreating the Cube's ability to generate perpetual energy.

Tony gives the government arc reactors

Tony doesn't have the ability to power the entire world with Arc Reactor technology in Avengers, and actively sought to improve the technology as well.

Tony did not have the Space Stone on hand, like Mar-Vell for her light speed engine, when he made arc reactors

You do realise that just proves my point, right? S.H.I.E.L.D didn't find Stark's Arc Reactor sufficient for their purposes, and they know that just the energy of the genuine Cube can be used for superluminal travel, creating super soldiers/super humans, and various other things that Stark wasn't even researching.

Tesseract powered WMDs

As I said in the edit to my last comment (I guess you didn't see that), we see in Captain America: First Avenger that HYDRA created WMDs themselves by collecting massive quantities of energy from the Stone and using them to augment their bombs to the point where they could destroy entire cities. It literally is about synthesizing the Cube for greater production because the Stone's energies can augment and create new weapons.

Basically, imagine a world where America has free energy, hyper-nukes, and millions of super soldiers with HYDRA-esque Tesseract guns that now don't need to be recharged. That's what properly synthesizing the Cube's properties could do.

I can be done now with you if you are done with me

Frankly, even if you respond, I am done with this now until you have something more substantive/some other points. I'll just focus on the genuinely impressive feats and move on.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

That's not semantics

Saying 'well energies from the Arc Reactor isn't energy from the Space Stone' is genuinely arguing semantics here because S.H.I.E.L.D/P.E.G.A.S.U.S' goal was alternative means of energy, and these were blatant attempts to harness the Stone's powers and properties of generating power, just unsuccessful ones.

I'll lay it out again: S.H.I.E.L.D always had the ability to collect energy from the Space Stone because of HYDRA and Howard Stark. They wanted to copy the Stone's energy generating abilities by synthesizing the element (meaning they could create portable reactors, as such), but Howard Stark and Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S (a joint effort that included S.H.I.E.L.D) was largely unsuccessful at that. Then, Tony Stark created a poor (but still highly impressive) facsimile of the Tesseract from their research, which S.H.I.E.L.D were interested in because it was a stepping stone to recreating the Cube's ability to generate perpetual energy.

Tony gives the government arc reactors

Tony doesn't have the ability to power the entire world with Arc Reactor technology in Avengers, and actively sought to improve the technology as well.

Tony did not have the Space Stone on hand, like Mar-Vell for her light speed engine, when he made arc reactors

You do realise that just proves my point, right? S.H.I.E.L.D didn't find Stark's Arc Reactor sufficient for their purposes, and they know that just the energy of the genuine Cube can be used for superluminal travel, creating super soldiers/super humans, and various other things that Stark wasn't even researching.

Tesseract powered WMDs

As I said in the edit to my last comment (I guess you didn't see that), we see in Captain America: First Avenger that HYDRA created WMDs themselves by collecting massive quantities of energy from the Stone and using them to augment their bombs to the point where they could destroy entire cities. It literally is about synthesizing the Cube for greater production because the Stone's energies can augment and create new weapons.

Basically, imagine a world where America has free energy, hyper-nukes, and millions of super soldiers with HYDRA-esque Tesseract guns that now don't need to be recharged. That's what properly synthesizing the Cube's properties could do.

I can be done now with you if you are done with me

Frankly, even if you respond, I am done with this now until you have something more substantive/some other points. I'll just focus on the genuinely impressive feats and move on.

Tony did not even know the Tesseract existed until the first Avengers movie. (He saw something in Howard Stark's notes in Iron Man 2, but those notes have visuals and language from this Wikipedia page about spatial dimensions, not language about extraordinary power.)

Since Tony did not know the Tesseract existed, and did not have it in his possession, his arc reactors did not use Space Stone energy.

The arc reactors that Tony made used Howard Stark's science learned from studying the Space Stone. An arc reactor that Stark and Vanko made may have been powered by the Space Stone. However, your own image scan of Howard's other Tesseract writings says the arc reactor came first, and that he did not achieve energy transfer from the Tesseract.

But there literally is no way that Tony used that energy to build his own arc reactors -- either the one made in a cave from a box of scraps or the upgraded ones made at his home that was never shown to be physically connected to the Stark Industries arc reactor. That is not semantics.

That's relevant to my OP because -- as you acknowledge -- SHIELD wanted to enhance Zola's original process of directly harnessing energy from the Tesseract. But they needed Selvig and his experience / expertise with the math and physics of what Fury thought was unlimited power. Meaning Selvig's experience / expertise with the Bifrost.

Fury admitted in Avengers 1 that the Tesseract-based WMD attempt was in response to Thor's destruction in New Mexico, because he found out humans were "hilariously outgunned."

Avengers 1 dialogue:

https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=36758

BANNER: I'd like to know why S.H.I.E.L.D. Is using the Tesseract to build weapons of mass destruction.

FURY: Because of him.

THOR: Me?

FURY: Last year, Earth had a visitor from another planet who had a grudge match that leveled a small town. We learned that not only are we not alone but we are hopelessly, hilariously, outgunned.

That means SHIELD decided that all the world's existing nukes were insufficient to stop Thor / Asgard. And we know SHIELD was willing to nuke civilians, as shown at the climax of Avengers.

Furthermore, since we also know Fury and SHIELD were already aware of Captain Marvel and the Kree -- whose nukes were more powerful than Earth's nukes -- Fury had even more reason to want stronger WMDs = greater magnitude WMDs.

Therefore "perpetual energy" was irrelevant. They needed stronger power. So unlimited power here is about magnitude, not sustainability.

Also, Selvig already saw the ambient energy of the Bifrost produce a physical Earth storm cloud (average weight 550 tons) when its beam was entirely light years away from Asgard to Jotunheim, and Fury already knows the Tesseract powered a light speed engine. Real world light-speed-mass physics require infinite energy of both of those things. So, through Selvig's previous research and Fury's own firsthand knowledge, Fury would know the Bifrost and Tesseract both have infinite energy.

Rejecting infinite energy light-speed-mass physics for the MCU, just because it is never explicitly stated, is a battle forum convention that defies logic. MCU never violates the IRL physics because light speed mass only occurs as a result of Space Stone and Bifrost energy, no civilization in the MCU has light speed ships even after Mar-Vell's invention, lack of light speed - MFTL ships is repeatedly depicted as problematic for characters in several MCU films, and many MCU scenes show detailed real life physics formulas.

 

[ByAsura]

Literally none of that, especially Stark not knowing about the Tesseract technology and his father not having successful transfer at first (which supports my points, if anything, because it strongly suggests that S.H.I.E.L.D would investigate it themselves) is actually relevant, despite your justification, so I won't bother arguing those points for the millionth time.

But, I will address the newer, more substantive arguments.

that he did not achieve energy transfer from the Tesseract.

He's referring to the Tesseract copy/element, not the Tesseract itself, hence why he says 'anything comparable'. That's why it was considered a failure.

But there literally is no way that Tony used that energy to build his own arc reactors

I never said it was. The movie itself said it was a replica; a stepping stone. That was my entire point. These mfs tried to replicate the Space Stone in elemental form, but only managed to achieve the Arc Reactor.

My point is that the active goal of S.H.I.E.L.D—as stated in the Wakanda files and Iron Man 2—wanted to replicate the Space Stone for energy production, and that's explicitly part what they wanted Selvig to accomplish.

either the one made in a cave from a box of scraps or the upgraded ones made at his home that was never shown to be physically connected to the Stark Industries arc reactor.

I get what you're saying, but I don't even comprehend what you're trying to convey with the bolded part. Can you elaborate?

Edit: Don't bother.

That means SHIELD decided that all the world's existing nukes were insufficient to stop Thor / Asgard.

AKA, regular nukes that aren't amped. How in the world is this a counter to my points?

Therefore "perpetual energy" was irrelevant. They needed stronger power. So unlimited power here is about magnitude, not sustainability.

Firstly, WMDs are only part of the reason. As I showed, one of their biggest concerns was sustainable energy, so Fury could easily have been referring to that rather than WMDs, especially since he said this before hiring Selvig as a researcher. You can't just contravene the fact that they wanted it for energy just because they also wanted it for weapons; they want it for both, not either or.

Secondly, we know that the magnitude of the perpetual, but finite, energy the Cosmic Cube gave HYDRA was enough to amplify their bombs billions of times, so unlimited power would still cover your argument of magnitude because they could perpetually produce enough energy to produce major weapons if they managed to tap the Stone properly.

Rejecting infinite energy light-speed-mass physics for the MCU, just because it is never explicitly stated, is a battle forum convention that defies logic.

First of all, the space stone is designed to control space, and do you really think that the Skrull/Kree, who are in an enormous war, would use infinite energy for space travel rather than obliterating each other's homeworlds or literally anything else? Because your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Space Stone can be used for WMDs in this capacity.

What's honestly more logical, that the drive uses infinite energy, or that it uses one of the many methods of SoL/FTL space travel in the MCU that don't require infinite energy, like jump nodes, hyperspace, warping space, etc?

Second of all, Carol Danvers can be equal to the SoL Drive (as shown at the end of CM), yet she physically struggles with finite feats.

MCU never violates the IRL physics because light speed mass only occurs as a result of Space Stone and Bifrost energy

Since when was Bifrost travel limited to the speed of light? The Bifrost is a form of portal that can traverse millions of light-years in moments flat.

Hell, since when was the Tesseract? Captain Marvel travelled a thousand light-years during Endgame.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

First of all, the space stone is designed to control space. Do you really think that the Skrull/Kree, who are in an enormous war, would use infinite energy for space travel rather than obliterating each other's homeworlds or literally anything else? Because your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Space Stone can be used for WMDs in this capacity.

What's honestly more logical, that the drive uses infinite energy, or that it uses one of the many methods of SoL/FTL space travel in the MCU that don't require infinite energy, like jump nodes, hyperspace, warping space, etc?

We know that the kree created the quantum bands which created all the jump points network and on this wiki they scale above tesseract if Quantum bands actually had a page obviously.

Second of all, Carol Danvers is equal to the SoL Drive (as shown at the end of CM), yet she physically struggles with finite feats.

To be fair Captain Marvel never really showed the actual limits of her powers, she never actually stated or shows to be out of energy and her output is "varies", her current "peak was shown after she travelled MFTL+ speeds and after jumpstarting the star she still had to fly back to Earth so it's not like she shown any signs of her power decresing. And if Mar vell made a SoL drive then Captain Marvel who is MFTL+ is much faster than the ship itself.

 

[ByAsura]

Fair point on that last one, I guess. CM's upper limits are more than a bit odd.

 

[ByAsura]

Anyway, I looked into calculating the Devil's Anus feat, and I couldn't find anything to actually compare the distance of the Commodore to the neutron star.

I'll be unfollowing now because I don't think my part in this discussion is going anywhere.

For what it's worth, I did disagree with 90% of your points and personally think that anything beyond High 6-A is pushing it, but I think you could be onto something in many places and I wish you the best of luck in upgrading Thor and co.

 

[NameyMcname2024]

Real life physics require that Carol’s infinite energy can only occur when she is actually moving at light - MFTL speed. Her combat reaction speeds are nowhere near as fast. The same goes for her flight speed in planetary atmosphere, as shown onscreen in all movies featuring her. So she cannot exhibit infinite energy in punches, kicks, defensive blocks, on-planet bullrushes, etc. Her photon blasts also cannot be infinite energy, because photons lack mass, and hence real world physics laws exclude them from the infinite mass - to - infinite energy formulas.

Neither the Kree nor the Skrull scientists with means to do anything with the Tesseract actually ever possessed the Tesseract, so their intentions for weapons of war with infinite energy are irrelevant.

The very fact that all the other MCU space travel methods are not FTL speed (wormholes, Jump Points, Sling Rings, etc. all teleport) means they don't require infinite energy.

As Fury says in Thor 1 and Avengers, Selvig’s role was to tap / harness the Tesseract’s power. How that power would then be used is the question. We know for a fact that Fury would have used that power to make weapons of mass destruction, because we see the schematics for that design. Yet Tony and Bruce both doubted SHIELD actually cared about clean energy. That is the point of their conversation with Steve. In fact, SHIELD never actually makes sustainable clean energy, but it does make advanced weapons, such as the Destroyer gun.

Given that Selvig saw the physical mass storm on Earth, caused by the Bifrost, which was entirely light years away, Selvig knew that requires infinite energy. His research about it means SHIELD knew that as well even before Fury and Selvig met. By definition of Fury wanting weapons to be able to match the Asgardians in firepower, any weapon of mass destruction that SHIELD makes due to the Tesseract would have to be able to match the power of the Bifrost in order to not be inferior.