12-D A Certain Magical Index

[Aseka]

11-D Justification
We at least certainly knew that Toaru's 11 dimensionality comes up from Teleporter's ability to calculate vector of space of eleventh dimension.

Shirai’s ability was called Teleport. It was not limited to three dimension rules, so she could move about freely within space.

However, there was a weakness to this ability. Though the phrase “to teleport within space” sounded simple, the theory behind it was to get away from the three dimensions, find her position in the eleventh dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. Such calculations' complexity couldn’t be compared to the simple commands that ordinary espers would have, like “fire a fireball”, or “fire electric strikes”.

- Vol 6 Between the Lines 1

And how we can know if it's a higher dimension or not, because Curtana Original showed us that it can slice all dimensions, higher or lower, with All Dimensions Severing Spell, and causing a dimensional cross section.

She curtly swung down the sword.

In the next instant, Kamijou Touma saw a dimension being severed for the first time in his life.

Its range was a little less than 20 meters.

With a strange noise, something passed through along a line that Kamijou and Acqua had been on just a moment before. Something like a belt or a wall that was only about as wide as Curtana Original expanded. It was white and looked a little like a plastic model before it was colored. That object that looked not entirely complete appeared before Kamijou’s eyes.

“I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I’m sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature.” A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa’s voice. “Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section.”

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked.

Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

“Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”

The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder.

She was not attacking.

Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet.

“This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world.”

(What…?)

Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.

If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.


- Vol 18 Chapter 5 Part 10

By this, we can conclude that at least currently Toaru have 11 dimensions.


12-D
If you read the scans above regarding 11 dimensions, you can see that Teleporter calculate a vector of eleventh dimension, it means a spatial dimension, because we know that generally a temporal dimension or time we usually say, doesn't have a vector. Time is a scalar thing, at least in Toaru they don't say that time have a vector. For one thing, Accelerator had reflected on the Teleporter's abilities before, which caused a strange phenomenon in three dimensional space.

When he reflected teleportation powers, a strange phenomenon occurred in the 3 dimensional world, but this had felt entirely different.

- Vol 20 Chapter 2 Part 10

And by this wiki, Teleport have kanji 空間移動 which means Spatial Movement.

So in this thread, I would like to propose that Toaru have 12 dimensions by counting the temporal dimension with 11 spatial dimensions.

 

[Axscell]

From what I understand here, I remember bringing this up once awhile ago, and the argument against it was that the dimension of time doesn't necessarily need to be the 11th dimension. It can the 4th dimension, and all higher dimensions above that can still be spatial. Unless there's something that proves contrary, I think the same point would still stand.

A better argument for higher-D, I believe, would have to do with countless individual phases being 11-D, existing within a higher-D world at large, similar to how Madoka Kaname got Low 1-C once upon a time (depends on if that is still a valid criterion for higher-D).

 

[Aseka]

From what I understand here, I remember bringing this up once awhile ago, and the argument against it was that the dimension of time doesn't necessarily need to be the 11th dimension. It can the 4th dimension, and all higher dimensions above that can still be spatial. Unless there's something that proves contrary, I think the same point would still stand.

By that standard, then we believe Teleporters using Temporal Axis as a vector to calculate, and this is contrary to general beliefs that Time don't have a vector, unless it stated. Because of that I mentioned that Teleporters calculate only Spatial Axis.

 

[Aseka]

A better argument for higher-D, I believe, would have to do with countless individual phases being 11-D, existing within a higher-D world at large, similar to how Madoka Kaname got Low 1-C once upon a time (depends on if that is still a valid criterion for higher-D).

As for this, we still don't know if there is a larger space that contained single universe with phases within.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

As for this, we still don't know if there is a larger space that contained single universe with phases within.

This. Toaru is clearly above the scale of 11D, but the 1 single problem is the cosmology is still not clear, we kinda already know the structure of Phases, but do not know if it's contained by any transcending structure or not (I would argue it being the Sephirot/Qlipoth, around the scales that those world tree exists or you could say within the trees, since angels and such resides within different Sephirah and heaven which is a Phase at the same time). We know the world (Phases + the Pure World) has a stacking structure (Coronzon proved this, destroying the base leads to the destruction of everything else).

Phases are intangible (physically), can exists at the same coordinate (angels and demon can be next to each other and wouldn't know it), but difference frequencies, I think we could understand that these frequencies are the differences between belief and ideals/ structure of the mythology they represents because of spark and sprays, and when the ideals collides, the "walls" of the Phases collides. I think the best explanation here is that Phases have a rather complex structure and relationship in the space between them (not big Phase contain small Phase or a multiverse type thing), so either Phases transcend each other (well you could kinda prove it using the hidden Phase, but that's really iffy) or some weird thing idk.

The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either: Teleporters seems to move in the 11th dimension with their power, since they do need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, no reason to do that unless their ability indeed allow them to travel in the 11th dimension, Accelerator reflecting them also produces a weird effect too. If teleporters can do that in the physical universe (they clearly have to be contained in the Physical universe, they are still humans after all) -> The Physical universe is 11D, then the fact that Magic Gods, or hell, even Angels existing in the physical universe is gonna blow it up or at least blows things up because hear this: The Physical Universe is stated to not have enough material to support their existence, stated in WW3 when Gabriel is about to blow stuff up iirc), so this could be prove that Phases can contain worlds that's more complex than 11D, clearly since Magic Gods did created a Phase like that to support their existence, as well as every other mythology beings with their true form comfortably existing in their own Phase. I don't know if there is any flaws in this logic or not, feel free to point them out. Oh, there's also the black world, don't know if the black world counts as another higher dimension or it's just a dimension without any Phases (except one).

Or a better bet would be Ein Sof (dimensions beyond the Sephirot), but we have near to no information about that stuff yet, so I won't be assuming stuff here.

 

[Axscell]

By that standard, then we believe Teleporters using Temporal Axis as a vector to calculate, and this is contrary to general beliefs that Time don't have a vector, unless it stated. Because of that I mentioned that Teleporters calculate only Spatial Axis.

Teleporters don't interact with other dimensions though, talk less of the time dimension. They only exclusively interact with the 11th dimension. I think you would have a good point if it were ever stated anywhere that they interacted with other dimensions aside from the usual 11th and 3rd, but I don't remember that ever being stated anywhere.

As for this, we still don't know if there is a larger space that contained single universe with phases within.

The larger space is what the novel refers to as the "world" (within context). It's where all of the phases "that exist" are located. That's why there is a clear distinction in the novel between universe/phase and the world at large.

The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about.

 

[Aseka]

Teleporters don't interact with other dimensions though, talk less of the time dimension. They only exclusively interact with the 11th dimension. I think you would have a good point if it were ever stated anywhere that they interacted with other dimensions aside from the usual 11th and 3rd, but I don't remember that ever being stated anywhere.

I am pretty sure when dealing with higher dimensions, it means that it must be no problem for dealing the lower dimensions. In this case, Teleporters dealing with 11th dimensional axis and thus is far more superior and far more complex than 3rd, 4th, or 5th axis. So for this standard, it makes sense if Teleporters can interact with other spatial Axis beside the eleventh, and that's why I said that Teleporters calculate all spatial axis. If we consider temporal axis as one of those eleven, than Teleporters could've dealing with some form of Time Manipulation or something like that, but there's no statement regarding them can withstand with temporal hax. By this I conclude that Teleporters spatial axis is eleventh, and counting with time, it's 12-D.

The larger space is what the novel refers to as the "world" (within context). It's where all of the phases "that exist" are located. That's why there is a clear distinction in the novel between universe/phase and the world at large.

This could be supporting feats then, but it's another problem. If this accepted, then it could be 13-D if we brought it back.

 

[Aseka]

The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either:

So, what's your stance in this thread?

 

[Aseka]

Also about Magic Gods, they before entering the world, have existence that can't be contained by the world, and requires them to split that existence infinitely.

 

[Vietthai96]

neutral on this, but you can have 10 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension and still be 11D, practically M-Theory. It is not necessary the 11 dimensions in the scan must be 11 spatial dimensions only and somehow there are another temporal dimension no one mention

And by this wiki, Teleport have kanji 空間移動 which means Spatial Movement

to be fair here, most fiction teleportation is spatial movement technique that allow instant movement, it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of thing actually, and it isn't necessary that it prove all mentioned dimensions are spatial only and again left out the temporal one

Anyway, i'm not really well-versed in Toaru verse, but have some basic knowledges about it, so i'm neutral, leaning toward disagree until there are more evidences

 

[Aseka]

practically M-Theory

But, it's not an M-Theory, I think. It's more related to Schrödinger's quantum theory and when I searched it, it's regarding infinite dimensional space.

Sakashima Michibata grabbed a tuft of Shirai’s hair between his fingers.
“Come to think of it, I heard that there’s a new subsidy for research on developing teleportation powers. Apparently, dealing with 11th dimensional coordinates is hard enough that it’s pretty unpopular even with the scientists.”
“It isn’t that. The 11th dimension mostly comes up in the quantum theories related to Schrödinger. The higher ups just feel like there’s a crisis because there aren’t very many Teleportation espers. People use the term ‘esper powers’ to refer to every kind of power, but there are some abilities that show up easily and some that don’t.”
“That’s one of the mysteries, isn’t it? I’m pretty sure that all 1st graders go through the same Curriculum with no elective classes and yet it ends up splitting into different powers where some can produce fire, some can produce wind, and on and on.”
- Vol SS2 Chapter 6

 

[Vietthai96]

But, it's not an M-Theory, I think. It's more related to Schrödinger's quantum theory and when I searched it, it's regarding infinite dimensional space.

Oke, but doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of thing, tbf

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

So, what's your stance in this thread?

My stance is that Toaru could "kinda" be proven to be 12D using my method (flawed or not I'm not sure), try argue using the fact that Magic Gods's existence, or even Angels are too much for a 11D world to handle (quoted: The world doesn't have enough material to support it's existence -> Gabriel) meaning an 11D world is not complex enough to support the existence of such being, not because they have so much power that the world blows up like a big bang, take the Dragon King for example too. So no need to rely on temporal dimension, we already have a better bet here.

With your logic, I am neutral.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

12-D toaru for real?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

12-D toaru for real?

I mean Toaru is clearly above just 11D right? (like seriously, 11D is only taken from Teleporters, and is 100% just the physical universe, we're basically ignoring the Sephirot, all the Mythology worlds and basically everything else, including the Magic Gods)

 

[Aseka]

Seems like there're still many things to considered.

 

[Piamma]

I have a question.

Why do you think the 11th dimension is the end?
In Curtana mentions, phrases like "all integer dimensions," "all dimensions expressed as integers," and "every integer dimension" were repeated three times with different expressions.

Where is it stated in the Toaru series that dimensions end at 11?
Or is there any other text or theory that can prove that the 11th dimension is the limit?
The number 11 is merely one of the dimensions described in teleportation as a means of movement.

Does Toaru's integers only range from 0 to 11?
I've never seen the phrase "all dimensions expressed as integers" interpreted this way anywhere else.

Moreover, dimensions are simply one of the components of the physical world, which is the phase of pure physical laws.

Additionally, the True Gremlin's Hidden Phase transcends the concepts of time and space, where the length of a single strand of hair extends infinitely, surpassing the phase of pure physical laws and all religious and mythological phases.


When transitioning between each phase, the physical world and heaven and hell are separated by just a thin layer of membrane, but in reality, the distance is so vast that it's absolutely impossible to traverse between phases using conventional methods.


Even when looking at it conservatively, isn't H1B appropriate?

 

[korea1234]

I have a question.

Why do you think the 11th dimension is the end?
In Curtana mentions, phrases like "all integer dimensions," "all dimensions expressed as integers," and "every integer dimension" were repeated three times with different expressions.

Where is it stated in the Toaru series that dimensions end at 11?
Or is there any other text or theory that can prove that the 11th dimension is the limit?
The number 11 is merely one of the dimensions described in teleportation as a means of movement.

Does Toaru's integers only range from 0 to 11?
I've never seen the phrase "all dimensions expressed as integers" interpreted this way anywhere else.

Moreover, dimensions are simply one of the components of the physical world, which is the phase of pure physical laws.

Additionally, the True Gremlin's Hidden Phase transcends the concepts of time and space, where the length of a single strand of hair extends infinitely, surpassing the phase of pure physical laws and all religious and mythological phases.


When transitioning between each phase, the physical world and heaven and hell are separated by just a thin layer of membrane, but in reality, the distance is so vast that it's absolutely impossible to traverse between phases using conventional methods.


Even when looking at it conservatively, isn't H1B appropriate?

I'm curious as to why, too.

When I entered the meaning of “cut all dimensions that can be expressed as integers” into Chatgpt, this is what I got



Yes, the phrase "cut all dimensions that can be expressed as integers" would literally mean cutting all dimensions that can be represented by any integer, not just up to the 11th dimension. It implies cutting through an infinite number of dimensions, as integers are infinite, rather than stopping at a specific limit like 11 dimensions. So, it suggests cutting all dimensions that can be expressed with any integer, whether it's 1, 2, 3... or beyond.

 

[korea1234]

This. Toaru is clearly above the scale of 11D, but the 1 single problem is the cosmology is still not clear, we kinda already know the structure of Phases, but do not know if it's contained by any transcending structure or not (I would argue it being the Sephirot/Qlipoth, around the scales that those world tree exists or you could say within the trees, since angels and such resides within different Sephirah and heaven which is a Phase at the same time). We know the world (Phases + the Pure World) has a stacking structure (Coronzon proved this, destroying the base leads to the destruction of everything else).

Phases are intangible (physically), can exists at the same coordinate (angels and demon can be next to each other and wouldn't know it), but difference frequencies, I think we could understand that these frequencies are the differences between belief and ideals/ structure of the mythology they represents because of spark and sprays, and when the ideals collides, the "walls" of the Phases collides. I think the best explanation here is that Phases have a rather complex structure and relationship in the space between them (not big Phase contain small Phase or a multiverse type thing), so either Phases transcend each other (well you could kinda prove it using the hidden Phase, but that's really iffy) or some weird thing idk.

The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either: Teleporters seems to move in the 11th dimension with their power, since they do need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, no reason to do that unless their ability indeed allow them to travel in the 11th dimension, Accelerator reflecting them also produces a weird effect too. If teleporters can do that in the physical universe (they clearly have to be contained in the Physical universe, they are still humans after all) -> The Physical universe is 11D, then the fact that Magic Gods, or hell, even Angels existing in the physical universe is gonna blow it up or at least blows things up because hear this: The Physical Universe is stated to not have enough material to support their existence, stated in WW3 when Gabriel is about to blow stuff up iirc), so this could be prove that Phases can contain worlds that's more complex than 11D, clearly since Magic Gods did created a Phase like that to support their existence, as well as every other mythology beings with their true form comfortably existing in their own Phase. I don't know if there is any flaws in this logic or not, feel free to point them out. Oh, there's also the black world, don't know if the black world counts as another higher dimension or it's just a dimension without any Phases (except one).

Or a better bet would be Ein Sof (dimensions beyond the Sephirot), but we have near to no information about that stuff yet, so I won't be assuming stuff here.

As I understand it, a black world is a world where everything but one has disappeared.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I'm curious as to why, too.

When I entered the meaning of “cut all dimensions that can be expressed as integers” into Chatgpt, this is what I got



Yes, the phrase "cut all dimensions that can be expressed as integers" would literally mean cutting all dimensions that can be represented by any integer, not just up to the 11th dimension. It implies cutting through an infinite number of dimensions, as integers are infinite, rather than stopping at a specific limit like 11 dimensions. So, it suggests cutting all dimensions that can be expressed with any integer, whether it's 1, 2, 3... or beyond.

No it does not, as you literally stated, it cuts "all dimensions that CAN be represented with WHOLE NUMBERS" meaning only existing dimensions in the structure would count, it doesn't say "the number of dimension equals to the number of whole numbers" or anything like that, the keyword is "all", I guess you could try to do something with the Japanese scans to see if it will help this argument, but seriously I think the goat js06 wouldn't fumble. At least this is their logic (the people who don't like the "higher than 11D idea" because we don't have a concrete information like a blunt statement), to say that it can be interpret in this way -> anything higher would be NLF.

The 11th dimension thing is literally taken from 1 fact, being that Teleporters seemingly can interact with the 11th dimension, this proves that the Physical universe is 11D. Though because they say that there isn't enough information regarding the Phases and such, they can't conclude that it's anything higher than that (though I think the magic gods already proven that, just that we're ignoring everything else besides the 11D statement).

I seriously need someone to explain to me why we won't taken into account any feats from the Magic Gods, like the argument being "we don't have any concrete evidence" is lame when we can just deduce everything ourselves through some simple logical thinking (well unless again, there's a strong counterargument).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I have a question.

Why do you think the 11th dimension is the end?
In Curtana mentions, phrases like "all integer dimensions," "all dimensions expressed as integers," and "every integer dimension" were repeated three times with different expressions.

Where is it stated in the Toaru series that dimensions end at 11?
Or is there any other text or theory that can prove that the 11th dimension is the limit?
The number 11 is merely one of the dimensions described in teleportation as a means of movement.

Does Toaru's integers only range from 0 to 11?
I've never seen the phrase "all dimensions expressed as integers" interpreted this way anywhere else.

Moreover, dimensions are simply one of the components of the physical world, which is the phase of pure physical laws.

Additionally, the True Gremlin's Hidden Phase transcends the concepts of time and space, where the length of a single strand of hair extends infinitely, surpassing the phase of pure physical laws and all religious and mythological phases.


When transitioning between each phase, the physical world and heaven and hell are separated by just a thin layer of membrane, but in reality, the distance is so vast that it's absolutely impossible to traverse between phases using conventional methods.


Even when looking at it conservatively, isn't H1B appropriate?

This below here

No it does not, as you literally stated, it cuts "all dimensions that CAN be represented with WHOLE NUMBERS" meaning only existing dimensions in the structure would count, it doesn't say "the number of dimension equals to the number of whole numbers" or anything like that, the keyword is "all", I guess you could try to do something with the Japanese scans to see if it will help this argument, but seriously I think the goat js06 wouldn't fumble. At least this is their logic (the people who don't like the "higher than 11D idea" because we don't have a concrete information like a blunt statement), to say that it can be interpret in this way -> anything higher would be NLF.

The 11th dimension thing is literally taken from 1 fact, being that Teleporters seemingly can interact with the 11th dimension, this proves that the Physical universe is 11D. Though because they say that there isn't enough information regarding the Phases and such, they can't conclude that it's anything higher than that (though I think the magic gods already proven that, just that we're ignoring everything else besides the 11D statement).

I seriously need someone to explain to me why we won't taken into account any feats from the Magic Gods, like the argument being "we don't have any concrete evidence" is lame when we can just deduce everything ourselves through some simple logical thinking (well unless again, there's a strong counterargument).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

As I understand it, a black world is a world where everything but one has disappeared.

Black world might just be nothingness, but we all knows that it can't be nothingness, it's not like Ein Sof or even the Sephirot has disappeared or anything and of course the Pure World too (of course we are not counting the hidden Phase here)

And also, I don't remember the true reason why Othinus destroyed all Phases (except you know what) but still able to use magic (from Gungnir of course), did she really destroyed all Phases including the Mythology ones or did she not? There are many things I've been wondering about the magic gods, I seriously need to reread all of those volumes and take contexts into account, information in Toaru are often not trustworthy enough or confusing without the proper understanding of the context.

Also what do you think about my logic to get Toaru to 12D? Is that enough? Is it flawed? But I think there would've been a reason to why people have never used this to upscale Toaru, because it's quite a simple argument at the end of the day.

 

[korea1234]

Black world might just be nothingness, but we all knows that it can't be nothingness, it's not like Ein Sof or even the Sephirot has disappeared or anything and of course the Pure World too (of course we are not counting the hidden Phase here)

And also, I don't remember the true reason why Othinus destroyed all Phases (except you know what) but still able to use magic (from Gungnir of course), did she really destroyed all Phases including the Mythology ones or did she not? There are many things I've been wondering about the magic gods, I seriously need to reread all of those volumes and take contexts into account, information in Toaru are often not trustworthy enough or confusing without the proper understanding of the context.

Also what do you think about my logic to get Toaru to 12D? Is that enough? Is it flawed? But I think there would've been a reason to why people have never used this to upscale Toaru, because it's quite a simple argument at the end of the day.

What is the argument you want to make about the black world?

Are you trying to argue that Othinus failed to destroy Sephirot, Ein Sof, and the pure world?

As far as I know, Othinus destroyed a world that contained all phase (except for hidden phase).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

What is the argument you want to make about the black world?

Are you trying to argue that Othinus failed to destroy Sephirot, Ein Sof, and the pure world?

As far as I know, Othinus destroyed a world that contained all phase (except for hidden phase).

Not this one, the other one in this thread (you replied to it). I wasn't trying to upscale Toaru using this method as it's not concrete enough (though it should be obvious that it could upscale Toaru someday, people doesn't seems to like using the Kabbalah until there are more informations).

Also I do not think the Pure World would upscale Toaru in any way.

 

[Piamma]

Black world might just be nothingness, but we all knows that it can't be nothingness, it's not like Ein Sof or even the Sephirot has disappeared or anything and of course the Pure World too (of course we are not counting the hidden Phase here)

And also, I don't remember the true reason why Othinus destroyed all Phases (except you know what) but still able to use magic (from Gungnir of course), did she really destroyed all Phases including the Mythology ones or did she not? There are many things I've been wondering about the magic gods, I seriously need to reread all of those volumes and take contexts into account, information in Toaru are often not trustworthy enough or confusing without the proper understanding of the context.

Also what do you think about my logic to get Toaru to 12D? Is that enough? Is it flawed? But I think there would've been a reason to why people have never used this to upscale Toaru, because it's quite a simple argument at the end of the day.

First of all, Ein Sof and Sephirot are not even phases.

Sephirot is merely a representation of the path connecting heaven and the physics world and has nothing to do with phases.

Also, Othinus clearly explained in NT Volume 9 about the phases that compose the world, such as Asgard, Heaven, Hell, Christianity, Buddhism, Celtic myths, etc. In NT Volume 10, it was stated that she could not destroy only one hidden phase.

This is not an exaggerated description, as it was further supported in NT Volumes 12 and 13 that the Magic Gods still handle all phases, and there is no text denying this.

And does destroying all phases mean one cannot use magic?

I'm curious where such baseless settings are being claimed.

Have you forgotten whose phase was newly inserted after destroying all those phases?

The issue regarding the number of dimensions is similar.

You focused on "all," but in that description, not only "all" but also "all dimensions expressed as integers" is a crucial key part.

As I mentioned before, there is no theory in Toaru that proves 11 dimensions are the limit. And it has never been stated that 11 dimensions are the end.

If you're going to limit it to "all dimensions expressed as integers," shouldn't you argue that integers in Toaru only exist from 0 to 11?

And although I don't particularly like discussing other universes, in Fate, even though only about 6-8 dimensions actually appear, just one character's line—"surpassed all dimensional theories"—grants the feat of transcending dimensions.

Why are you trying to apply separate standards only to the Magic Gods, who are similarly described as having transcended even dimensions?

Moreover, in toaru, dimensions are merely components of the physics world.

The hidden phase where the Magic Gods reside transcends such physics worlds and all religious and mythological phases.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

First of all, Ein Sof and Sephirot are not even phases.

Sephirot is merely a representation of the path connecting heaven and the physics world and has nothing to do with phases.

Also, Othinus clearly explained in NT Volume 9 about the phases that compose the world, such as Asgard, Heaven, Hell, Christianity, Buddhism, Celtic myths, etc. In NT Volume 10, it was stated that she could not destroy only one hidden phase.

This is not an exaggerated description, as it was further supported in NT Volumes 12 and 13 that the Magic Gods still handle all phases, and there is no text denying this.

And does destroying all phases mean one cannot use magic?

I'm curious where such baseless settings are being claimed.

Have you forgotten whose phase was newly inserted after destroying all those phases?

The issue regarding the number of dimensions is similar.

You focused on "all," but in that description, not only "all" but also "all dimensions expressed as integers" is a crucial key part.

As I mentioned before, there is no theory in Toaru that proves 11 dimensions are the limit. And it has never been stated that 11 dimensions are the end.

If you're going to limit it to "all dimensions expressed as integers," shouldn't you argue that integers in Toaru only exist from 0 to 11?

And although I don't particularly like discussing other universes, in Fate, even though only about 6-8 dimensions actually appear, just one character's line—"surpassed all dimensional theories"—grants the feat of transcending dimensions.

Why are you trying to apply separate standards only to the Magic Gods, who are similarly described as having transcended even dimensions?

Moreover, in toaru, dimensions are merely components of the physics world.

The hidden phase where the Magic Gods reside transcends such physics worlds and all religious and mythological phases.

Magic Gods resides in the Pure World? I might be choking something here but this is wrong isn't it? Isn't it supposed to be the hidden Phase thay True Magic Gods resides in while Othinus doing her own things in the normal world?

The infinite dimension part is this: their logic not mine, I used to fight against this logic, but I gave up. They argued that because it was stated to be "all dimensions that can be represented with whole numbers", it can also be interpreted as "all dimensions in this world that can be represented as whole numbers, idk maybe they don't take the description of the ability as literal but instead will base on the cosmology to scale this and will consider anything else NLF, as I said, most will disagree on this so don't even try (unless you could find a sounder argument to counter all of these problems).

Read the other reply of mine in this post, I am already aware that dimensions (at least 11 of them) belongs to the Physical Universe only and because of that, we're basically ignoring all the other Phases, the Magic Gods and everything. There isn't anything that stated that Toaru has more than 11D, but I think there are already enough information to conclude that there are higher structures in the verse and Phases simple doesn't stop just at 11D, via the magic god (just read my other reply). People literally didn't go any higher than thay, they concluded Toaru to be 11D, conclude that all the Phases that scales to reality will also be 11D (without understanding that it makes 0 senses when the 11D thing is just solely the Physical universe), ignoring Kabbalah because "not enough information", though I do agree about the Kabbalah thing, they did one thing wrong, that being that they did not consider the Magic Gods.

Also didn't Aleister stated that all Phases destroyed will leave a magicless world and he yearn to achieve that? Or am I missing something? I know the Magic Gods can use Phase manipulation but again, Othinus can clearly still use Gungnir, a magical tool that allow her to have that power to begin with.

 

[Piamma]

Magic Gods resides in the Pure World? I might be choking something here but this is wrong isn't it? Isn't it supposed to be the hidden Phase thay True Magic Gods resides in while Othinus doing her own things in the normal world?

The infinite dimension part is this: their logic not mine, I used to fight against this logic, but I gave up. They argued that because it was stated to be "all dimensions that can be represented with whole numbers", it can also be interpreted as "all dimensions in this world that can be represented as whole numbers, idk maybe they don't take the description of the ability as literal but instead will base on the cosmology to scale this and will consider anything else NLF, as I said, most will disagree on this so don't even try (unless you could find a sounder argument to counter all of these problems).

Read the other reply of mine in this post, I am already aware that dimensions (at least 11 of them) belongs to the Physical Universe only and because of that, we're basically ignoring all the other Phases, the Magic Gods and everything. There isn't anything that stated that Toaru has more than 11D, but I think there are already enough information to conclude that there are higher structures in the verse and Phases simple doesn't stop just at 11D, via the magic god (just read my other reply). People literally didn't go any higher than thay, they concluded Toaru to be 11D, conclude that all the Phases that scales to reality will also be 11D (without understanding that it makes 0 senses when the 11D thing is just solely the Physical universe), ignoring Kabbalah because "not enough information", though I do agree about the Kabbalah thing, they did one thing wrong, that being that they did not consider the Magic Gods.

Also didn't Aleister stated that all Phases destroyed will leave a magicless world and he yearn to achieve that? Or am I missing something? I know the Magic Gods can use Phase manipulation but again, Othinus can clearly still use Gungnir, a magical tool that allow her to have that power to begin with.

Magic Gods resides in the Pure World? I might be choking something here but this is wrong isn't it? Isn't it supposed to be the hidden Phase thay True Magic Gods resides in while Othinus doing her own things in the normal world?

It seems you didn't see the edited comment.It's the Hidden Phase.It's a DeepL error.

 

[Piamma]

Magic Gods resides in the Pure World? I might be choking something here but this is wrong isn't it? Isn't it supposed to be the hidden Phase thay True Magic Gods resides in while Othinus doing her own things in the normal world?

The infinite dimension part is this: their logic not mine, I used to fight against this logic, but I gave up. They argued that because it was stated to be "all dimensions that can be represented with whole numbers", it can also be interpreted as "all dimensions in this world that can be represented as whole numbers, idk maybe they don't take the description of the ability as literal but instead will base on the cosmology to scale this and will consider anything else NLF, as I said, most will disagree on this so don't even try (unless you could find a sounder argument to counter all of these problems).

Read the other reply of mine in this post, I am already aware that dimensions (at least 11 of them) belongs to the Physical Universe only and because of that, we're basically ignoring all the other Phases, the Magic Gods and everything. There isn't anything that stated that Toaru has more than 11D, but I think there are already enough information to conclude that there are higher structures in the verse and Phases simple doesn't stop just at 11D, via the magic god (just read my other reply). People literally didn't go any higher than thay, they concluded Toaru to be 11D, conclude that all the Phases that scales to reality will also be 11D (without understanding that it makes 0 senses when the 11D thing is just solely the Physical universe), ignoring Kabbalah because "not enough information", though I do agree about the Kabbalah thing, they did one thing wrong, that being that they did not consider the Magic Gods.

Also didn't Aleister stated that all Phases destroyed will leave a magicless world and he yearn to achieve that? Or am I missing something? I know the Magic Gods can use Phase manipulation but again, Othinus can clearly still use Gungnir, a magical tool that allow her to have that power to begin with.

It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding about Aleister's plan.

As you said, Aleister's goal is to erase all religious and magical phases to eliminate all magic.

However, Aleister prioritized neutralizing all Magic Gods in order to proceed with his plan.
If Aleister could eliminate all magical elements, including the Magic Gods, by using Aiwass to erase all religious and magical phases, he wouldn't have had a reason to prioritize neutralizing the Magic Gods, would he?

Also, the Magic Gods are capable of creating phases themselves, not just relying on existing ones.

Therefore, the idea that magic cannot be used just because all the phases in the world are destroyed is incorrect.

 

[korea1234]

Magic Gods resides in the Pure World? I might be choking something here but this is wrong isn't it? Isn't it supposed to be the hidden Phase thay True Magic Gods resides in while Othinus doing her own things in the normal world?

The infinite dimension part is this: their logic not mine, I used to fight against this logic, but I gave up. They argued that because it was stated to be "all dimensions that can be represented with whole numbers", it can also be interpreted as "all dimensions in this world that can be represented as whole numbers, idk maybe they don't take the description of the ability as literal but instead will base on the cosmology to scale this and will consider anything else NLF, as I said, most will disagree on this so don't even try (unless you could find a sounder argument to counter all of these problems).

Read the other reply of mine in this post, I am already aware that dimensions (at least 11 of them) belongs to the Physical Universe only and because of that, we're basically ignoring all the other Phases, the Magic Gods and everything. There isn't anything that stated that Toaru has more than 11D, but I think there are already enough information to conclude that there are higher structures in the verse and Phases simple doesn't stop just at 11D, via the magic god (just read my other reply). People literally didn't go any higher than thay, they concluded Toaru to be 11D, conclude that all the Phases that scales to reality will also be 11D (without understanding that it makes 0 senses when the 11D thing is just solely the Physical universe), ignoring Kabbalah because "not enough information", though I do agree about the Kabbalah thing, they did one thing wrong, that being that they did not consider the Magic Gods.

Also didn't Aleister stated that all Phases destroyed will leave a magicless world and he yearn to achieve that? Or am I missing something? I know the Magic Gods can use Phase manipulation but again, Othinus can clearly still use Gungnir, a magical tool that allow her to have that power to begin with.

Another logic of the Toaru 12D that I came up with is this.

1. the physical universe has 11 dimensions.

2. the world containing the physical universe is infinite in size (mentioned in Toaru GT 10, Toaru NT 09), i.e. infinite 11 dimensions.

Spoiler: Toaru GT10

For example, his right hand hadn’t been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

3. magical gods are infinitely attenuated (mentioned in Toaru NT 12).

Spoiler: Toaru NT 12

“Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

4. the god of magic can destroy the infinite 11th dimension even while infinitely weakened.

Spoiler: Toaru NT 14

(Embed it.)

She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.

(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-...)

The voice of her heart was cut off.

5. this means that a magic god that is not infinitely weakened is 12D.

Where do you stand on this logic?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding about Aleister's plan.

As you said, Aleister's goal is to erase all religious and magical phases to eliminate all magic.

However, Aleister prioritized neutralizing all Magic Gods in order to proceed with his plan.
If Aleister could eliminate all magical elements, including the Magic Gods, by using Aiwass to erase all religious and magical phases, he wouldn't have had a reason to prioritize neutralizing the Magic Gods, would he?

Also, the Magic Gods are capable of creating phases themselves, not just relying on existing ones.

Therefore, the idea that magic cannot be used just because all the phases in the world are destroyed is incorrect.

As I said, I know that Magic Gods has Phase Manipulation, BUT Othinus DID NOT. She only have all the Magic God power thanks to one element, Gungnir, a norse myth weapon. I'm forgetting many things in this volume, so please help me on this.

Idk, maybe that Gungnir is the real Gungnir (but it's not, I'm quite sure of that, unless Mandela effect strikes).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Another logic of the Toaru 12D that I came up with is this.

1. the physical universe has 11 dimensions.

2. the world containing the physical universe is infinite in size (mentioned in Toaru GT 10, Toaru NT 09), i.e. infinite 11 dimensions.

Spoiler: Toaru GT10

For example, his right hand hadn’t been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

3. magical gods are infinitely attenuated (mentioned in Toaru NT 12).

Spoiler: Toaru NT 12

“Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

4. the god of magic can destroy the infinite 11th dimension even while infinitely weakened.

Spoiler: Toaru NT 14

(Embed it.)

She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.

(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-...)

The voice of her heart was cut off.

5. this means that a magic god that is not infinitely weakened is 12D.

Where do you stand on this logic?

This is my logic too, BUT there are missing details here that people will use to be like "uhhh nahhhhhh bruhhhhh when they say crushing the world it's a 3D world bruhhhhhh" so I'll add my things in (also I forgot the infinite world narrator statement in GT10, but it doesn't really change anything taken the context, Othinus created then destroys so it doesn't prove that the world could hold infinite Phases, though I personally think it has no problem doing that tbh):

Gabriel in WW3 when it was trying to blow the North pole (is it North?) in the process of gathering energy, it was explained that because the world wouldn't have enough material to support it's existence, that happens. Now we pair this with the fact that Teleporters MUST HAVE USED the 11th dimension to travel because if not then it didn't explain the fact that they need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, it's like you moving a car in 3D but calculating your coordinate in 11D, it's stupid if that's the case, and Index's esp works scientifically so there's no point in believing that the teleporters just magically teleports in 3D without the need of the 11th dimension, that's also stupid. Also Accelerator reflecting them produces a strange phenomena so it proves that Teleporters must have used a higher dimension to move, simple logic.

So the Physical Universe is 11D using the above logic (cause humans must stay in the physical universe, or you'd be assuming that Teleporters are somehow granted the permission to just defy the Sephirot's law like Angel Falls), and pair it with the fact that that same 11D world doesn't have enough material to support their existence (in this context, the best interpretation of this is that the universe isn't complex enough to hold it's existence, not that it has too much power then things go boom boom like a big bang, but more like the universe has a bug -> refer to Dragon King GT9 too).

So that makes Magic Gods, whose existence the whole 11D world couldn't even hold for an instant and will just blow up, 12D in base form, and they can create worlds that supports their existence which make Phases (or at least the world inside them) go up to 12D. Magic Gods can exist without the Phase, but idk if that's because creation haven't been destroyed yet or not (Sephirot, Pure World). Of course we know that Ein Sof might even scales index to 13D, but that's a "lack of information" case so don't use it.

Also the timeline, of course we're referring to the timeline of reality in Index (which is said that it's referring to reality itself, so it's not just the Physical Universe), this could upscale Toaru to 12D using temporal dimension. Of course I'm aware that in Railgun it's stated that Teleportation can change future prediction from abilities that can foresee time, but I don't know if that time and this "time" are of the same level or not, after all we're talking about World Rejector, Magic Gods and a esper Shota, they can't be on the same level.

 

[Piamma]

As I said, I know that Magic Gods has Phase Manipulation, BUT Othinus DID NOT. She only have all the Magic God power thanks to one element, Gungnir, a norse myth weapon. I'm forgetting many things in this volume, so please help me on this.

Idk, maybe that Gungnir is the real Gungnir (but it's not, I'm quite sure of that, unless Mandela effect strikes).

Gungnir has nothing to do with the power of the Magic God or phase manipulation.

Othinus was a Magic God from the distant past.
Because she once completely discarded the power of the Magic God, she tried to obtain a 100% chance of success to reawaken as a Magic God. (That's what Gungnir is.)
However, she reawakened the power of the Magic God through a 100% chance of failure (Fairy), and afterward, she also succeeded in creating Gungnir.

Gungnir has no direct connection with the power of the Magic God itself (phase manipulation).

This is described in Volume NT8.

In this case, the completion of "Gungnir" doesn't matter anymore.
It's not a tool to amplify a magician's power. It's merely something to organize and make the overwhelmingly strong and uncontrollable power of the "Magic God" easier to handle.
Even if Othinus, who has lost her power as a "Magic God," obtains that spear, she cannot gain any benefit.

If the power of the Magic God doesn't exist in the first place, Gungnir is nothing but useless trash.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Gungnir has nothing to do with the power of the Magic God or phase manipulation.

Othinus was a Magic God from the distant past.
Because she once completely discarded the power of the Magic God, she tried to obtain a 100% chance of success to reawaken as a Magic God. (That's what Gungnir is.)
However, she reawakened the power of the Magic God through a 100% chance of failure (Fairy), and afterward, she also succeeded in creating Gungnir.

Gungnir has no direct connection with the power of the Magic God itself (phase manipulation).

This is described in Volume NT8.


If the power of the Magic God doesn't exist in the first place, Gungnir is nothing but useless trash.

But yeah, Gungnir is said to make that power "easier to handle" as what made the Phase manip possible in the first place, but if that same magical tool lost it's power (because the Norse Myth Phase would've been gone) then how the heck can Othinus still be fine? Doesn't that mean she goes back to 50/50?

 

[Piamma]

But yeah, Gungnir is said to make that power "easier to handle" as what made the Phase manip possible in the first place, but if that same magical tool lost it's power (because the Norse Myth Phase would've been gone) then how the heck can Othinus still be fine? Doesn't that mean she goes back to 50/50?

Gungnir is merely the emblem of Othinus' authority. The destruction of Gungnir has no bearing on the state of Norse mythology.

'Call me a god. And what I did was simple. I just constantly created new filters to apply to the world so that it appeared differently. That way, the world would seem to change. It's far less troublesome than destroying everything one by one and recreating it all from scratch.'

It has been explicitly described multiple times that creating filters (phases) and destroying all phases entirely is possible—it's just that doing so is a bother.

'I don't know much about what "phases" are exactly, but in any case, you had the power to freely shape the world, as if molding it like clay. Because of that, you eventually completely forgot what the original world was like. So you desperately tried to create that form, groping through your memory based on the scenery in your mind. You kept adding or removing phases. It was truly a task befitting the title of a god. Perhaps to anyone else, it would have seemed like a nearly perfect masterpiece, indistinguishable from reality. But you’re a god, so you couldn’t be satisfied with "almost."'

So, the moment that spear was thrown from Othinus' hand, the world shattered into pieces.

Darkness ripped apart. It was torn vertically, as if by an external force, progressing further.
Othinus and Kamijou Touma were both mistaken about one thing. They thought that the world of darkness was the "end of the world"—a place where everything had been destroyed, and where there was nothing left. They thought that was the pitch-black despair.
But in reality, it was different.
One more layer—like a thin membrane—remained, uniform yet flawless, with no visible flaw, a "phase" that no one could know, and that no one could destroy.
A hidden phase.
It was a place even the Magic God Othinus could not destroy.


The only phase Othinus cannot destroy is the hidden phase.

 

[Piamma]

Her ability to manipulate all phases is also mentioned in Volume 12 of New Testament.

'This place is the Dianoid, a super high-rise building made entirely of carbon-based construction materials, right? In other words, to distort the landscape, you don’t need to manipulate every phase, every dimension, or every element. A magician who can manipulate just one thing—carbon—can do it with ease.'

I don't understand how the claim that Othinus cannot manipulate phases even comes about. From the start, the concept of phase manipulation has been explained specifically in relation to Othinus.

 

[Churronzon]

Blodeuwedd victims

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Her ability to manipulate all phases is also mentioned in Volume 12 of New Testament.



I don't understand how the claim that Othinus cannot manipulate phases even comes about. From the start, the concept of phase manipulation has been explained specifically in relation to Othinus.

Nah, not that I said "Othinus can't manipulate Phases", but I'm just wondering if Gungnir is effected by the destruction of all Phases that is all (it's been a long time since I've touched NT9, cut me some slack).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Well anyways, what do you think about my method to get Toaru to 12D?

The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either: Teleporters seems to move in the 11th dimension with their power, since they do need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, no reason to do that unless their ability indeed allow them to travel in the 11th dimension, Accelerator reflecting them also produces a weird effect too. If teleporters can do that in the physical universe (they clearly have to be contained in the Physical universe, they are still humans after all) -> The Physical universe is 11D, then the fact that Magic Gods, or hell, even Angels existing in the physical universe is gonna blow it up or at least blows things up because hear this: The Physical Universe is stated to not have enough material to support their existence, stated in WW3 when Gabriel is about to blow stuff up iirc), so this could be prove that Phases can contain worlds that's more complex than 11D, clearly since Magic Gods did created a Phase like that to support their existence, as well as every other mythology beings with their true form comfortably existing in their own Phase. I don't know if there is any flaws in this logic or not, feel free to point them out. Oh, there's also the black world, don't know if the black world counts as another higher dimension or it's just a dimension without any Phases (except one).

Or a better bet would be Ein Sof (dimensions beyond the Sephirot), but we have near to no information about that stuff yet, so I won't be assuming stuff here.

 

[Piamma]

Nah, not that I said "Othinus can't manipulate Phases", but I'm just wondering if Gungnir is effected by the destruction of all Phases that is all (it's been a long time since I've touched NT9, cut me some slack).

As I mentioned earlier, Even if all phases are destroyed, Gungnir itself is not destroyed.
Gungnir was destroyed because of IB.

Although I don't particularly like the fact that it is only 12-dimensional, there is no issue with the argument. As I mentioned, even the religious and mythological phases of Heaven and Hell exist on a higher plane than the material world. In the case of the Hidden Phase, it transcends the material world, dimensions, and all religious and mythological phases.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Although I don't particularly like the fact that it is only 12-dimensional, there is no issue with the argument. As I mentioned, even the religious and mythological phases of Heaven and Hell exist on a higher plane than the material world. In the case of the Hidden Phase, it transcends the material world, dimensions, and all religious and mythological phases.

My thought, but for now it's just in my head. Sometimes you just knows it, but you just don't have enough information. If you want to at least try arguing with Curtana cutting infinite dimensions, try using the japanese scans and translate it yourself using gpt 4.0 or some powerful engine then see for yourselves if the argument is sound or not.

I personally think above Asiah is already Outer (I hate using scientific dimension in a religious setting, outside of the Physical Universe of course, inside it we can still use scientific concepts, so I 100% don't like calling anything above the Physical Universe merely "just 1 dimension higher" like bro what are you talking about "dimensions" outside of the Physical Universe)