Sonic vs broly

[Coolboy6]

Both 4-A, speed equalized, lssj broly used
Sanic: 7

Monkee hulk:

 

[Rikimarox2]

Looking at Sonic's Profile, it seems he vastly scales above ~5.2 Exafoe. Do we have a calc for broly's 4-A or not?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Sonic is >>>>7.2 exafoes, Broly is 51

 

[sanicspood]

this would end the same way broly vs shadow did

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Yes, BUT! Sonic spams his hax less in character

 

[Rikimarox2]

Sonic is >>>>7.2 exafoes, Broly is 51

So, a few hits from Broly should do the trick, no? What does Sonic do in character?

 

[sanicspood]

headbut at the start

 

[ElixirBlue]

headbut at the start

Sonic is not headbutting. He usually rams himself against his opponents as A. He has to chase down his enemies who run away from him and B. they have attacks that push him away.

Broly isn't going to do either. So its H2H most of the fight.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So... Does Sonic start with hax?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ok few things:

1. Their AP scaling look like this:

Super Sonic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.708 ExaFoe
LSSJ Broly (Movie 10) ~ 51.7 ExaFoe (Broly's power is kind of fuzzy, but I'll at least say he's around SSJ2 Goku's level)

However, Super Sonic got few things to beat Broly:

1. Aside from Sonic scaling MASSIVELY above his calc, he also got stonewall durability, making it hard for Broly to affect him

2. Sonic both greatly outskills and outmanuvers Broly due to having far superior H2H combat experience (Broly, especially in his LSSJ form, fights like a brute and doesn't use actual martial arts techniques and rather uses kicks and punches while taking advantage of his large size)

3. Super Sonic also got passive empathic hax, that would slowly sooth Broly, making him less and less inclined to fight as Sonic subdues his rage and evil (like he did to Perfect Chaos)

4. If Super Sonic sees his attacks doesn't work, then he can and will use either Chaos Control to BFR him or stop him in time, Use the Time Break + Ring time combo, or violet void him away

 

[sanicspood]

yea this is just shadow vs broly but its sonic

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

yea this is just shadow vs broly but its sonic

In a way yes, but this is still different enough to not be a repeat of that battle

 

[Keeweed]

I believe Broly actually backscales from the 51 Exafoe while Sonic upscales from 7. So Broly’s ap advantage probably won’t be vastly higher. However I don’t remember sonic every going for hax, literally at any point. He can use the wisp if the player makes him use it, but I remember him always going for H2H in every cutscene I’ve ever seen from the Sonic games. So this is Broly’s ap and skill advantage vs Sonic’s movability and possibly hax.

Broly causally has planet sized AoE for his attacks so movability is chucked straight out of the window. I don’t remember sonic literally ever using hax, so if people have cutscenes showing him using it that would be great.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I believe Broly actually backscales from the 51 Exafoe while Sonic upscales from 7. So Broly’s ap advantage probably won’t be vastly higher. However I don’t remember sonic every going for hax, literally at any point. He can use the wisp if the player makes him use it, but I remember him always going for H2H in every cutscene I’ve ever seen from the Sonic games. So this is Broly’s ap and skill advantage vs Sonic’s movability and possibly hax.

Broly causally has planet sized AoE for his attacks so movability is chucked straight out of the window. I don’t remember sonic literally ever using hax, so if people have cutscenes showing him using it that would be great.

Broly doesn't go with AoE right of the bat, and even then it won't one shot Sonic, or do massive damage due to Sonic's stonewall durability and the fact that the AP gap isn't that large, if at all.

Also Sonic isn't stupid. If he sees his regular H2H attacks don't work, he wouldn't just keep attacking like an idiot. He will use his haxes if needed

Sonic used the wisps many times in every game since Sonic Colors, Time Break and Ring Time appear in Sonic Generations and can use Chaos Control since Sonic Adventure 2 (and he actually used it in cutscene alongside Shadow)

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic doesn't fight that much in cutscenes either, this is a video game series, most fights are in gameplay

Sonic isn't dumb, if H2H doesn't work he will use his other abilities

 

[Keeweed]

“Also Sonic isn't stupid. If he sees his regular H2H attacks don't work”

it isn’t a matter of a character being smart, it’s what they are shown to do in character. For example, realistically characterless rpg characters with death hax would just start with death due to how the human brain naturally works, but on this site we assume they are more likely to try and mindlessly fist fight you.

If sonic hasn’t shown that he uses his hax it doesn’t matter how realistic it would be for someone of his intelligence to use it.

“Time Break and Ring Time appear in Sonic Generations”

How do they appear, does he use them in fights during the cutscenes all the time or does he just use them for a story purpose and nothing else.

“and can use Chaos Control since Sonic Adventure 2 (and he actually used it in cutscene alongside Shadow)”

perfect example of what I mean. He used that for a specific purpose once and is never shown to spam it or constantly use it in fights. 90% of the time he constantly goes for H2H even if he really shouldn’t.

“Sonic used the wisps many times in every game since Sonic Colors”

Last I checked only when the player wants to, and colors was primarily about Sonic helping the wisp while they helped him so of course he used them a lot then. In the more recent games while he can use them, he is constantly shown in the cutscenes to just go up to people and punch them out (like in forces you can equip wisp, but in every cutscene he punches and kicks people).

I get that sonic has hax and he has used it before, but does he use it enough in the majority of scenarios to absolutely say he open with it upon somewhat failing to hurt a guy. I don’t think he would.

And I will say Broly’s definitely doesn’t open with planetary Aoe, but he still uses plenty of it (regular Aoe, not planetary) and he has much more of a reason to use larger AoEs than sonic does to use his hax.

 

[Keeweed]

Sonic doesn't fight that much in cutscenes either, this is a video game series, most fights are in gameplay

Last I checked for video game characters we only go off what they do in cutscenes and assume all the gameplay stuff is hilariously out of character unless shown otherwise (or they can be rpg/characterless character and thus we either have it be 100% random or they just fist fight you and completely ignore all the abilities they have).

Sonic in the cutscenes primarily fist fight people. And when he doesn’t punch you out he usually has a story reason as to why he went for something else. Sonic doesn’t have that here so he’ll just punch Broly’s. Granted I think sonic could win a fist fight with broly due to his stonewall durability and broly being a bit on the berserker side of fighting, but I don’t see Sonic going for hax all that often.

 

[Theuser789]

but on this site we assume they are more likely to try and mindlessly fist fight you.

If sonic hasn’t shown that he uses his hax it doesn’t matter how realistic it would be for someone of his intelligence to use it.

No we don't, that's wrong and honestly stupid and completely ignores why we have a inteligence rating

This argument is honestly ridiculous obtuse and shows every single problem in versus threads in this wikia versus anywhere else, Sonic doesn't fight in cutscenes except beating literal fodder, ignoring 90% of his abilities with that reasoning is honestly ridiculous and should be ignored, Sonic can and has used those abilities in canonical fights, removing them because Sonic doesn't use them against fodder in cutscenes is ridiculously idiotic

 

[Theuser789]

You want a specific cutscene example since you think Sonic is a complete idiot? Secret Rings, Sonic uses time break against the Ifrit

 

[ElixirBlue]

Last I checked for video game characters we only go off what they do in cutscenes

Color is onward, Sonic has not fought in cut scenes.

Sonic’s character has changed Colors onward by the current writers.

Sonic goes for Hax in Sonic and the Secret rings’ cutscene, Pre-Colors.

Exactly what are you bringing to the table to show how Sonic fights?

 

[Theuser789]

Honestly "in character" is only relevant to starting move, and how a character will analyse the combat. No human ever acts the exact same way, we act based on circunstances, context, and what we are dealing with, the same applies to animals and any life form, therefore limiting characters to what they did in a complete different context (like implying he won't use any hax because he didn't use it on fodder) is completely idiotic and unrealistic, and an extremely pior argument

 

[ShakeResounding]

We don't go solely with what's used in cutscenes for video game characters. How pragmatic the character is during combat also matters. This is how it's been for forever for game characters like Sonic and Mario in their thread. Go through any versus match with them and you'll see as much.

Sonic takes this for superior skill, Stonewall Dura to mitigate as much damage as possible, techniques/abilities that bolster his nimbleness and maneuverability, and passive empathic hax that will wear down Broly's rage.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Sonic FRA

 

[sanicspood]

sonic fra if this isnt a stomp the only thing broly has is strength which would hardly work

 

[Theuser789]

Also voting Sonic if that wasn't clear

 

[Rikimarox2]

From what I'm getting at, Sonic's stonewall durability comes from him taking attacks from foes much stronger than him, yes?

If so, what is Broly's wincon? The only thing that seems to be in his advantage is AP, and even that is kind of negated with stone wall durability. Not to mention, Sonic's higher skill in H2H.

 

[sanicspood]

thats what i said lol

 

[Keeweed]

Color is onward, Sonic has not fought in cut scenes.

Sonic’s character has changed Colors onward by the current writers.

Sonic goes for Hax in Sonic and the Secret rings’ cutscene, Pre-Colors.

Exactly what are you bringing to the table to show how Sonic fights?

Sonic has fought in plenty of cutscenes, even if it is very short lived. He fought infinite and after his H2H didn’t work he got stomped. He is shown kicking the next boss in the very small ending cutscene. I would say more, but my next post makes this pointless:

I see I should make a thread on this because I’ve seen multiple matches say we only use cutscenes for game characters and rpg characters are random but usually go for the low ball (only using physical attacks and not hax)

I find it highly unlikely Sonic has more skill in H2H when Broly can effortlessly dodge all of Goku and Piccolo’s attacks and easily plow through them (though now that I think about it he is pretty far beyond them physically, but I don’t think he should be vastly behind in skill).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I find it highly unlikely Sonic has more skill in H2H when Broly can effortlessly dodge all of Goku and Piccolo’s attacks and easily plow through them (though now that I think about it he is pretty far beyond them physically, but I don’t think he should be vastly behind in skill).

1. Goku and Piccolo were FAR weaker than Broly. And when Goku recieved energy from his friends and got equalized to Broly's strength, he effortlessly dodged Broly's attack and defeated him. Also speed was unequalized in that fight (obviously)

2. Speed is equalized, so both are equally as fast here. However, Sonic has much more manuverability than Broly

 

[Keeweed]

Both sonic and Broly can fly around in whatever direction they want on a dime. I know sonic can teleport, but he may not do that often (I’ll make the thread tomorrow on how we treat game characters). What other movability does sonic have because you can’t get that much better than the movability of flight both these characters have.

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic has fought in plenty of cutscenes, even if it is very short lived. He fought infinite and after his H2H didn’t work he got stomped. He is shown kicking the next boss in the very small ending cutscene. I would say more, but my next post makes this pointless:

Sonic vs Infinite is the only time there was an actual fight in cutscenes, however you are wrong for several reasons

1: Sonic got overwhelmed by Infinite that he couldn't use all his abilities before losing

2: This is base Sonic that fought Infinite, we are using Super Sonic here who hasn't fought in cutscenes

3: Sonic doesn't fight in cutscenes, you are limiting the character with your argument of ignorance

4: I don't care about your appeal to authority of the wikia standards, what I am arguing is common sense based on how every life form acts on this planet

 

[Rikimarox2]

Assuming Sonic doesn't have the IQ of a turd and has basic common sense:

what is Broly's wincon? The only thing that seems to be in his advantage is AP, and even that is kind of negated with stone wall durability. Not to mention, Sonic's higher skill in H2H.

^

 

[Keeweed]

I mean I agree with you, but on other versus threads I’ve been told dozens of times we go off cutscenes or events that are 100% stated to be canon. And if they don’t fit those requirements they are either completely random or out of character. Obviously anyone with average intelligence would open with hax in a fight, because that is actually something humans naturally do by instinct (open with the best option to end a conflict, since living things obviously have evolved to not like that), but I’ve been told that is wrong before (assuming characters use hax, I’ve been told we assume they go for basic physical attacks and either don’t use hax or are entirely random with the hax unless stated or shown to constantly use it), which is why I’ll make a thread over it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

You're... Making a thread over it? That's... Not gonna change anything. You're trying to apply one set thing to hundreds of characters with different or varied mindsets. How fast Sonic may use hax is different than how fast Mario would use hax, which is different compared to Link, which is different compared to Mega Man, Kratos, etc.

In the other threads you've been on with different characters, sure, that may be the case. But Sonic is Sonic. Sonic is not Mario, nor is he Mega Man, etc. Some characters may never use hax regardless of how much of a pinch they're in, but Sonic has been shown to do so. You get what I mean?

 

[Theuser789]

I mean I agree with you, but on other versus threads I’ve been told dozens of times we go off cutscenes or events that are 100% stated to be canon. And if they don’t fit those requirements they are either completely random or out of character. Obviously anyone with average intelligence would open with hax in a fight, because that is actually something humans naturally do by instinct (open with the best option to end a conflict, since living things obviously have evolved to not like that), but I’ve been told that is wrong before (assuming characters use hax, I’ve been told we assume they go for basic physical attacks and either don’t use hax or are entirely random with the hax unless stated or shown to constantly use it), which is why I’ll make a thread over it.

I see the confusion, this seems to be a misunderstanding, people probably told you off on saying the character starts with hax if they don't do so in character, and the player being able to start with it doesn't mean the character does, however there is a BIG difference between not starting with hax, and never using it after all other options are used, seems to me that those people only told you off on the first but not the latter and you got confused over it

 

[Keeweed]

Sonic would absolutely apply to what I’m going to have in that thread. Because one of things I’m going to take about it how important gameplay is for what a character does in a fight. If sonic doesn’t fight in the cutscenes, and the gameplay can’t be used, then he’ll be treated like how we treat characterless rpg characters, and the thread I’m going to make would talk about how we should treat those characters.

 

[Keeweed]

I see the confusion, this seems to be a misunderstanding, people probably told you off on saying the character starts with hax if they don't do so in character, and the player being able to start with it doesn't mean the character does, however there is a BIG difference between not starting with hax, and never using it after all other options are used, seems to me that those people only told you off on the first but not the latter and you got confused over it

No they told me pretty clearly that we assume characters never use hax unless stated or shown. I’ve seen multiple thread end with a character that has a ability that would easily end the fight, but they haven’t shown or been stated to use it often so they eventually, very slowly, lose the fight despite having a way to win.

 

[Theuser789]

Who told you that, how important where they, and how long ago was this and what context? Anyways Sonic has been show to actualy use all the hax said here, it's not an ability he has via scaling ir something

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Sonic FRA

 

[Keeweed]

It was a staff member, and I remember being told similar things by different staff over the years. It has been a while since staff has told me: though I’ve seen it appear as a concept in verses threads many times afterwards, so I know the site (how much of the site I don’t know) still treats it this way. Which is why I would like to make a thread over it because sometimes it leads to very goofy scenarios (like a rpg character, with ranged weapons, and above average intelligence trying to sword fight their opponent, despite the opponent starting 4km away and shooting at them with a gun)