1-A Void upgrade for Shadow Fight (Need Ultima's input)

[Secimatar]

That is contributable, you should add it in the OP.

Well, I am not the thread creator so I can't actually edit it. But with the evidence provided do u agree to the thread?

 

[Richard5128pm]

That is contributable, you should add it in the OP.

I'll add it now

 

[Richard5128pm]

As I said, energy is fundamentally a physical property. So therefore, one should show it as a kind of metaphysical aspect rather than a physical energy. Physical energy also has creation/destruction like the way our universe is created. So in general, these things do not make much sense.

How can we even prove it to be a physical energy, when the first thing is does is erase anything that is physical and turn them to nothingness, while also it's place of origin lacks any physicality. It doesn't make sense to me, to be honest. And pardon me, as this is the first time I'm introduced to something like this while talking about voids.

What I want to mention is that for them to move or rather advance from Non 1-A into 1-A, they will need intervention from proper 1-A beings. If they enter on their own, this will downgrade it to Non 1-A.

The void starts outside of the universe (low 2-C), so characters who are immune to it's existence erasure can just exit their universe and enter it, it doesn't really seem like a problem, as the void get 1-A rating because of it's non dimensionality and it's overall size (much vaster than physical reality).

 

[Wikisource]

How can we even prove it to be a physical energy, when the first thing is does is erase anything that is physical and turn them to nothingness, while also it's place of origin lacks any physicality. It doesn't make sense to me, to be honest. And pardon me, as this is the first time I'm introduced to something like this while talking about voids.

Erase matter doesn't mean is not a kind of physics. There are many things we can explain under sight of physical phenomena. So, my opinion doesn't change.

The void starts outside of the universe (low 2-C), so characters who are immune to it's existence erasure can just exit their universe and enter it, it doesn't really seem like a problem, as the void get 1-A rating because of it's non dimensionality and it's overall size (much vaster than physical reality).

The problem here is they can enter 1-A without any 1-A help, your explain doesn't make sense. A 1-A is non-composite. This mean is cannot reach, cannot get or innacessible form any non 1-A.

 

[Secimatar]

The problem here is they can enter 1-A without any 1-A help, your explain doesn't make sense. A 1-A is non-composite. This mean is cannot reach, cannot get or innacessible form any non 1-A.

It doesn't say that a non 1-A character can't enter a void of nothingness. Literally the void of nothingness starts outside reality, that is why this criteria isn't usually applied to void of nothingness on this wiki. It is not a conceptual domain that is transcendent and inaccessible from reality, it is a void of nothingness. And this doesn't exclude the void of nothingness from 1-A. So it doesn't really matter cuz this is an illogical argument. The stuff that u say have never been used to exclude a void of nothingness from 1-A rating.

 

[Wikisource]

It doesn't say that a non 1-A character can't enter a void of nothingness. Literally the void of nothingness starts outside reality, that is why this criteria isn't usually applied to void of nothingness on this wiki. It is not a conceptual domain that is transcendent and inaccessible from reality, it is a void of nothingness. And this doesn't exclude the void of nothingness from 1-A. So it doesn't really matter cuz this is an illogical argument. The stuff that u say have never been used to exclude a void of nothingness from 1-A rating.

So answer me, what do you think is the difference between tier 1-A and 11-C up to Low 1-A?

 

[Secimatar]

So answer me, what do you think is the difference between tier 1-A and 11-C up to Low 1-A?

A tier Low 1-A can still be achieved by quantitive superiority. A 1-A can only be achieved by qualitive superiority. The composition (nothingness) surpasses the very composition of lower reality. No matter how many realities u stack u ain't getting the same composition as the void and this supperority of the void over the lower reality is also due to its non existent nature.
Quoting from BDE page "A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop." This is literally given as an example for BDE Type 2. The void in shadow fight perfectly.
Quoting another statement from the BDE Page "However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them." The argument of non 1-A beings not being able to enter 1-A doesn't apply to containers ofc. As they are containers, they contain reality so just existing ur reality would put u in them while they still can be of a superior nature. But ofc the void also erases anyone who doesn't enter without special things like void tech for example.

 

[Wikisource]

The argument of non 1-A beings not being able to enter 1-A doesn't apply to containers ofc. As they are containers, they contain reality so just existing ur reality would put u in them while they still can be of a superior nature. But ofc the void also erases anyone who doesn't enter without special things like void tech for example.

??????

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

A non 1-A being need to be empowered by a 1-A to reach 1-A. Where are you base on to say that??????

 

[Wikisource]

@Astral_Trinity439 can you explain to him? He got big misunderstood here.

 

[Wikisource]

Ig you don't trust me because I'm a opponent with this crt. But you can ask @Ultima_Reality did what I said true or false.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

@Astral_Trinity439 can you explain to him? He got big misunderstood here.

He got the argument from me, xD, so let me clarify it for you, since its prolly his choice of wording that you're having a hard time understanding.

A non 1-A being need to be empowered by a 1-A to reach 1-A. Where are you base on to say that??????

Indeed, but that's only if the Non 1-A being is becoming 1-A via a gain in power. This is because you can't, as you know, add quantitative power[non 1-A power] on top of itself to achieve 1-A.

But from what I read above, your problem is that they're physically existing in a 1-A void, so its an anti-feat, correct?
Well, there's more to it;

Basically, for them to even "become" 1-A, they need to change their composition to the same composition as the higher reality. In this case, since the higher reality/1-A is a Void of Nothingness, they'll need to change their composition to that same nothingness to become 1-A. Yet from the looks of it, it seems they're still retaining their physical existence, which means they're not "becoming 1-A" to begin with.

Even if they do get erased, however, it won't be an anti-feat since its a "removal of qualities", not "stacking up qualities". That's also the reason why you can "reach" tier 0 by being reduced to Ultimate Reality[i.e., Nirvana] by removing your qualities and returning to the nondual ground.

Regarding the "Void Energy"

It seems the Void is not dependent on the Void Energy, since an attribute to the Void, the attribute of being "Eternal", is possessed only by the Void itself and not whatever is contained within it. That would naturally include the Void Energy too.

However, at the same time, the Void Energy is not 1-A in existence itself. Because in a reality where everything is generated from and returns to the 1-A higher reality, the thing being generated is not necessarily 1-A. Take Arceus for example; his true form is 1-A, but the Pokémon Reality, which it is the source of, is not 1-A itself.

It seems the Void Energy is just some sort of EE hax, which is normal for a "Void".
Let's take an example; "Character A and B are fighting, B erases A via Void Energy, and A then reduced to the Void, the place where it came from". This doesn't make the Void Energy's EE 1-A, but it does make the state of existence that it reduces one to as 1-A.

Basically, this is because Existence Erasure doesn't, in existence level, scale to the state which it reduces someone to. An EE that can erase someone's physical existence and fundamental information can't and won't scale to the 'state' of the character that's left after it experiences EE. It just reduces a character to that state, it can't interact with the state itself as an ability.

 

[Wikisource]

@Astral_Trinity439 I'm not really care this verse. I'm done with this crt because I say everything I need to say. Besides, I just say something about like 1-A and Non 1-A feats.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

@Astral_Trinity439 I'm not really care this verse. I'm done with this crt because I say everything I need to say. Besides, I just say something about like 1-A and Non 1-A feats.

You can just snip my message, cuz sometimes @ mentions don't ping me[idk if its just me or if its a problem with everyone].
In any case, sure. Though, the explanation I gave has some general examples as well.

 

[Wikisource]

You can just snip my message, cuz sometimes @ mentions don't ping me[idk if its just me or if its a problem with everyone].
In any case, sure. Though, the explanation I gave has some general examples as well.

Alr

 

[Udlmaster]

I would like to see more, but as of the moment I can't say I see 1-A from the scans.

Being the nothingness which made everything isn't really a qualification for 1-A, otherwise every Void would just be an automatic jump.

From what I can see, and I'm happy to be shown otherwise, it seems like this is what I've coined as a "Bathtub Voids", Voids that have a Multiverse sitting in it like a rubber duck in a bathtub.

I don't see the Void here as qualitatively superior to the Multiverse, just larger and where it comes from.

 

[Secimatar]

Being the nothingness which made everything isn't really a qualification for 1-A, otherwise every Void would just be an automatic jump.

Actually how it is stated in the BDE page is that if a void of nothingness is much vaster than normal reality and the common imagery is a universe a small object in a vast backdrop then they should qualify for 1-A

A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

The thing is that you can't be nothingness and contain the entire reality, be vast compared to it and not be 1-A, something that is a void lacks all type of time, space, physicality and dimensionality. There are a few ways this can go, 1 is that they are nothingness but they are much smaller than the physical reality, in this case they are 0 dimensional beings. 2 is that they are aspatial and atemporal but they are still comparable with things that have dimensionality, in this case they get BDE Type 1. 3 is that they are nothingness and they are much vaster than physical reality such that there very composition surpasses that of the physical reality. In this case the voids get BDE Ttpe 2 and are 1-A.

However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.

otherwise every Void would just be an automatic jump.

It is true that some voids that are staed to be nothingness don't get 1-A but that is not because their nothingness don't qualify for 1-A its cuz they got anti-statements that disqualify them from 1-A. For example: Garganta is also called nothingness, but garganta also has statements that say that it has time. Such statements disqualify it from 1-A as it is not true nothingness and rather just an empty higher dimensional space/bulk space. The void has no such anti-statements though so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I don't see the Void here as qualitatively superior to the Multiverse, just larger and where it comes from.

and the "larger" is the deciding factor here, because as her the BDE page, you cannot have a void that's "larger"/"superior"/"Vaster" then Space-time yet also of the same reality level; i.e., it has to be 1-A.

 

[Udlmaster]

and the "larger" is the deciding factor here, because as her the BDE page, you cannot have a void that's "larger"/"superior"/"Vaster" then Space-time yet also of the same reality level; i.e., it has to be 1-A.

I double checked my my thoughts with Ultima and he has confirmed to me that the idea of a Void being larger than a Multiverse or Space-time isn't automatic grounds for 1-A, my Bathtub Void idea reminds sound.

This idea that they have to be was a misconception from Agnaa apparently and isn't something that is a part of the system.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I’m not sure how that’s the case, BDE article says a conceptual domain (void of nothingness, in this case) must meet three requirements to get 1-A rating, those are;

Be non dimensional

Be vaster than physical reality (with no specified limit)

Be of a different / superior composition than physical reality (non existence/emptiness in this case)

I’m saying this after re-reading the Beyond Dimensional Existence page multiple times, and your bathtub analogy is exactly how the void is supposed to get 1-A rating, as long as there’s no anti feat.

but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop. - BDE page

There are many voids in fiction, but not all of them would get 1-A rating by default because they would have a certain limit, for example, let’s take ginnungagap, it is the primordial void of god of war verse, but it is merely just a part of Yggdrasil.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I double checked my my thoughts with Ultima and he has confirmed to me that the idea of a Void being larger than a Multiverse or Space-time isn't automatic grounds for 1-A, my Bathtub Void idea reminds sound.

Could you link where you confirmed it? [Just want to clear up my own thoughts]

Because I don't see why something that lacks space-time yet is also bigger then it cannot be qualitatively superior to it[a void is of a different composite then physical reality; it's also vaster than it in this case, acting as the background canvas].
I mean, you can't really say its inferior because of it being vaster than physical reality; one also cannot attack something like X+1 dimensionality to it since its a void; our standards [at least the definition pages] treat them as lacking spatiotemporal features.

This idea that they have to be was a misconception from Agnaa apparently and isn't something that is a part of the system.

Hmm, the BDE2 page says it is, tho, if that was the case then that line should be removed.

 

[Udlmaster]

Could you link where you confirmed it? [Just want to clear up my own thoughts]

I'm friends with Ultima on discord, so it was in our private chat.

Hmm, the BDE2 page says it is, tho, if that was the case then that line should be removed.

This would be more so something you'd have to take up with them, since the system is still rather new and settling.

 

[Secimatar]

I'm friends with Ultima on discord, so it was in our private chat.

This would be more so something you'd have to take up with them, since the system is still rather new and settling.

Also another thing I would like to add is that the void is incomprehensible/unimaginable for everyone.

 

[VoidWalker777]

I agree with it and I see no flaws in it

 

[Baabasaplar95]

so many things I've seen before ahh... Disagree FRA

 

[Udlmaster]

Also another thing I would like to add is that the void is incomprehensible/unimaginable for everyone.

Like I say, my conclusion is based what I see in the OP, I'm happy to be shown more to change my mind.

 

[Secimatar]

Like I say, my conclusion is based what I see in the OP, I'm happy to be shown more to change my mind.

It is actually in the Op, we updated it.

 

[Secimatar]

so many things I've seen before ahh... Disagree FRA

What do u exactly disagree with?

 

[Udlmaster]

It is actually in the Op, we updated it.

Oh, the Developer comment? From what I saw it says its "unimaginable".

I would like to see some sources from the game first. The developer post (or news post, I can't tell which) is nice for backing up anything said in the game, but I don't really find it stands on its own merits, since it seems promotional/sensational and naturally comes from an extra-literary source.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

What do u exactly disagree with?

1-A

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

Oh, the Developer comment? From what I saw it says its "unimaginable".

I would like to see some sources from the game first. The developer post (or news post, I can't tell which) is nice for backing up anything said in the game, but I don't really find it stands on its own merits, since it seems promotional/sensational and naturally comes from an extra-literary source.

Then again, this wouldn't be the first time they describe something found in the story via social media articles. For example around 85% of the lore we know about he Eternals comes from their teasers from back in 2016 posted on the devs' main social media platform, VK, released a couple of days before they opened the beta-testing server for Underworld Raids. There are about five entries that talk about their origins. And this is lore that is not exactly brought up in-game, but neither does it contradict anything we see of them in the game.

And why shouldn't they describe those things with "awesome" terms if they are supposed to be big deals in the lore of the game? Eternals were characters unlike anything we'd seen before in SF2's lore back then. We went from fighting street thugs for pocket money, ninjas, aliens and cyborgs to fighting godlike deities that brought about the apocalypse on humanity in the past multiple times just because they got fed up with humans' meddling. The Void is also a bigger deal than anything we've seen before in SF3 prior to its introduction. If the plot is initially concerned with a sentient magical artifact (Shadow Mind) that can provoke thousands of wars on Earth between people if left unchecked, to then the protagonist of the previous game (Shadow) wishing to destroy the world / universe and recreate from scratch, to then time travel and multiverse shenanigans of a new villain (Stranger), to now the introduction of the Void - a realm whose threat and importance surpasses the scale of all the previous plotlines. The threat of Shadow Mind breaking free and causing havoc on Earth, and of Shadow destroying and recreating the universe are of extremely low importance / concern in the current Void plotline even though these events are still going on in this 2-A multiverse. And Stranger went from the invincible "big bad" of the multiverse to a guy with actual opposition from the Void and its characters. What I'm trying to say is that naturally the story and scale of the world evolves as time passes, with the older elements getting powercrept by the newer ones. The Void is just the "next phase" of the story after going through its 2-A multiverse phase. They are describing the Void in this article, not a "villain of the week" character or some random magical place that has little importance in the current plotline.

 

[Secimatar]

1-A

Bruh like what do u disagree with here that u think makes this not get 1-A?

 

[Secimatar]

Oh, the Developer comment? From what I saw it says its "unimaginable".

In the official English version of that article, it says incomprehensible. Either way, Incomprehensible or unimaginable, they both sort of imply the same thing, that the nature of the void is impossible to understand or grasp for anyone that is of the physical reality (almost whole verse basically).

 

[Udlmaster]

For example around 85% of the lore we know about he Eternals comes from their teasers from back in 2016 posted on the devs' main social media platform, VK, released a couple of days before they opened the beta-testing server for Underworld Raids.

I do find that particularly worrisome, since there's less intention for words said from extra-literary sources to reflect on the work itself.

Like I say, I would find it much more convincing if there was some sources from the game itself, like someone talking about how the Void is beyond imagining and it's beyond all intellection.

Something like that would be something I find most convincing.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Oh, the Developer comment? From what I saw it says its "unimaginable".

Here's the English version of it.

i feel like this is way too vague for a 1-A rating

The thread has been updated with more info, please do check it out.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This would be more so something you'd have to take up with them, since the system is still rather new and settling.

We're talking about Ultima here, the one who made that very page and every line in it; Why would Ultima say "that thing is not enough for BDE2" when the lines they wrote on the page say otherwise?

 

[Udlmaster]

We're talking about Ultima here, the one who made that very page and every line in it; Why would Ultima say "that thing is not enough for BDE2" when the lines they wrote on the page say otherwise?

Why would he say that...?

Because I asked him...?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Disagree FRA.

 

[Secimatar]

Why would he say that...?

Because I asked him...?

His own msgs on the site contradicts what u said, this corresponds with the BDE page and it also corresponds with our thread

 

[Secimatar]

Disagree FRA.

But this should correspond with BDE 2 page

A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

I don't how this doesn't qualify.

 

[Udlmaster]

His own msgs on the site contradicts what u said, this corresponds with the BDE page and it also corresponds with our thread

Feel free to ask him on here yourself. I asked him on Discord.

I don't really find this angle particularly persuasive, like I said, if there's things in the game itself that describes the Void as outside intellection or beyond comprehension then I'd be happy to back the effort, I just don't see it at the moment.