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That explains the difference in levels. In Kumo Desu Ga, they absorb only a portion of it and the rest gets reincarnated in the world. Human Soul have more exp cuz of skillsOblivion Of The Endless said:
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(1-1-2) The Queen of Unlife vs The Spider Godess
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PhantomØ4
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They absorb the entirety if they are relevant in power with each other, othewrise the soul is too big and heavy for them to take in. Stats are not the same thing as levels by the way, and I do not know the verse but do they actually have the thing where its straight up addition of the souls size and weight or does the soul just get bigger by an unkwon extent? Because it does not scale up the same way if that is the case.
It´s self acting power null, the one that acts more like reistances rather than not allowing the opponent to use skills, did Kumoko still deal with that or was it the other kinds?
It´s self acting power null, the one that acts more like reistances rather than not allowing the opponent to use skills, did Kumoko still deal with that or was it the other kinds?
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It should be noted that the parallel wills aren't a single hit attack.
They slowly eat up the souls and make their power their own.
They could basically kill someone via the soul equivalent of scratch damage if given enough time, so the pure size of a soul shouldn't matter for this match.
As for cutting the link: Lain only did that knowing Yogiri's power. Against Kumoko she has no reason to suspect the necessity of such precautions. And the main individual was connected even against Yogiri, as far as the manga goes.
They slowly eat up the souls and make their power their own.
They could basically kill someone via the soul equivalent of scratch damage if given enough time, so the pure size of a soul shouldn't matter for this match.
As for cutting the link: Lain only did that knowing Yogiri's power. Against Kumoko she has no reason to suspect the necessity of such precautions. And the main individual was connected even against Yogiri, as far as the manga goes.
PhantomØ4
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Tracing back connections between individuals within the world vs in another reality is still quite different given range problems and other similar stuff. I was more so saying it for after Lain realized the Domino effect that is happening, which she probably would notice when her clones start dying in connection order, I should have made myself clear apologies for that.
The soul size should only delay the inevitable then, but it would not result on her dying permanently regardless, altough she might be able to outpace it via creating regen clones.
What would happen if her main body was destroyed by the way? Could Lain absorb her soul considering a similar soul scaling goes on?
The soul size should only delay the inevitable then, but it would not result on her dying permanently regardless, altough she might be able to outpace it via creating regen clones.
What would happen if her main body was destroyed by the way? Could Lain absorb her soul considering a similar soul scaling goes on?
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The soul keeps getting stronger and kumoko's soul which had more skills but less stats than Mother's could only scratch it (difference in Stats was about 100k). Mothers soul would one shot Kumoko's parallel Minds without the resistances she has. She slowly devours the soul, getting stronger herself. Due to Potimas-sama and Ariel, we know that it's a straight up addition, as every soul needs to be destroyed separately with soul break to kill a robot that has the power of many souls.TheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
Self power null? She nulls the powers that are used on her from what I know. Doesn't seem like resistances to me. She doesn't null the activation, but the effect, am I right? Divine Dragon Barrier does that to both activation and effect.
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Kumoko is quite vicious; she doesn't kill the souls she infects, she uses them to first infect the others then slowly chip them away. Infecting the original is the first thing she does.TheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
Outpacing it doesn't seem possible. The more she consumes, the stronger she becomes and the faster the progress becomes. If you feed her souls, it's only digging your own grave.
If the Main Body gets destroyed, you would have to try to absorb Kumoko's soul which is, let's say, relative in size but is immune to soul manip (worked on stronger opponents, including Ariel), so she would probably win. Either that, or she leaves behind an empty husk, so Lain kills the body but there is no soul inside of it, basically.
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The stats are a part of what is gained, but also important; the most important is the skills tho. That's why even when humans are many times weaker than monsters, because they have more skills, their souls are actually way stronger (EXP gain is higher). To be able to kill a God, you would need the entire elf race to cast Soul Break. Arachne Kumoko is one step short of that level.TheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
PhantomØ4
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But she has not done anything on the level of tracing someone back from an entire different dimension in this key, right? So maybe the original avatar would die but not the true form.
Her cloning is exponential, the more clones the faster she can clone herself because the clones also clone themselves. Altough she would probably notice the domino effect going on first anyways and start making different existences.
Oaky, well at least Lain should have a win condition by that logic.
That just means that they gain more EXP per 1 human soul which makes their giant stat numbers and skills = less souls because they gained much more from them, ID needs multiple souls of relative level to increase in level, so smaller lvl really reflects more souls.
Yeah her soul manipulation resistance would still be huge, so that makes sense, but I do not think you can scale linearly down a key.
Her cloning is exponential, the more clones the faster she can clone herself because the clones also clone themselves. Altough she would probably notice the domino effect going on first anyways and start making different existences.
Oaky, well at least Lain should have a win condition by that logic.
That just means that they gain more EXP per 1 human soul which makes their giant stat numbers and skills = less souls because they gained much more from them, ID needs multiple souls of relative level to increase in level, so smaller lvl really reflects more souls.
Yeah her soul manipulation resistance would still be huge, so that makes sense, but I do not think you can scale linearly down a key.
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Yeah, but the soul of a Lvl 1 Human and a Lvl 100 Human is different. They give more EXP compared to monsters, but that's only if they have also killed many beings and polished their skills. The EXP of two human souls isn't the same.TheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
Actually, you can in this case. The key difference exists because Kumoko loses her abilities during Apotheosis and makes new ones along the way. Apotheosis (which turns normal people into God's) does not empower their souls, so the strength of their souls shouldn't differ (even if it does, it should only be a tiny bit).
Why does Lain being in a different dimension matter? She can use Dimension Magic in Arachne form and following the link between souls doesn't have to do with where one is located.
The true body and the body used in the battle will already be infected, so wouldn't that be irrelevant? No matter how many times she is cloned, since she can't take down Kumoko, it's just food for Kumoko.
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Ah, on a sidenote; are we using only LN feats, or WN as well? Or use both, unless WN and LN contradict themselves? Cuz I am using Novel stiff up to the point there is an LN (not fully translated 
) and then WN. If it's only LN, then the strength of the souls isn't explained from what I know, so all the scaling falls apart and Kumoko loses quite a bit of her power.
) and then WN. If it's only LN, then the strength of the souls isn't explained from what I know, so all the scaling falls apart and Kumoko loses quite a bit of her power.
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If we assume the Link can't be traced for whatever reason, then the only way Kumoko can beat Lain in this case, is via knowing of the True Form existence from Appraisal (Wisdom) and breaching into her dimension, or use the knowledge to search for her soul. She can also read memories from the souls she is enroached in, so she can not only get knowledge about the true form, but about the location as well. If that doesn't work, one vote on Inconclusive from me, otherwise, a W for Kumoko
PhantomØ4
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I can see that but if human souls inhertly give more EXP than Monster souls then they are just a more effective influx of EXP. I was asking as in a situation where the human is of equal level to the monster and has the same kills. Kind of like food and calories, some foods just have more calories but replace calories with EXP.
Because it would be outside of reality, that is a range limitation, and if Kumoko cannot trace her back then her dimension magic cannot do much because she cannot locate her specific personal dimension.
The true body would be infected if she can reach across dimensions which it does not seem like she can. I almost forgot but Lain could disconect the clones from her and they would be wiped from existence due to no connection, so it would probably also cut off the Domino effect when she realizes what is happening sice her clones are dying in connection order.
Because it would be outside of reality, that is a range limitation, and if Kumoko cannot trace her back then her dimension magic cannot do much because she cannot locate her specific personal dimension.
The true body would be infected if she can reach across dimensions which it does not seem like she can. I almost forgot but Lain could disconect the clones from her and they would be wiped from existence due to no connection, so it would probably also cut off the Domino effect when she realizes what is happening sice her clones are dying in connection order.
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First of all, sorry for quoting everything, I thought I was supposed to do that
Then they would be equal. It's just that, monsters have more raw stats than humans, but humans have the edge on skills.
Moving on, Dimension Magic does reach across Dimensions. Actually, it was used to attack D who resides in her own Dimension. The only thing that was needed was knowledge about it and Kumoko will have it.
Kumoko doesn't kill the clones tho. She will first go for the true body then slowly chip away their souls slowly. Only if she was found out would she kill them all at the same time, no domino effect here. Sorry, must have phrased it wrong before.
Then they would be equal. It's just that, monsters have more raw stats than humans, but humans have the edge on skills.
Moving on, Dimension Magic does reach across Dimensions. Actually, it was used to attack D who resides in her own Dimension. The only thing that was needed was knowledge about it and Kumoko will have it.
Kumoko doesn't kill the clones tho. She will first go for the true body then slowly chip away their souls slowly. Only if she was found out would she kill them all at the same time, no domino effect here. Sorry, must have phrased it wrong before.
PhantomØ4
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It is fine.
I see.
I meant the tracing back, not the dimension magic. If her tracing back does not have the feats to reach across dimension then she will not even be able to know where the true form is, so no knowledge would be attained there.
Ohh, ok. Well, would this no give time for Lain to destroy her main body considering the amount of clones and the time delay caused by the bigger and heavier soul? I am not asking if Lain would get to destroy her 100 times out of 100 but just 60 out of 100 or something along those lines, since Kumoko cannot make clones in this key either so she would be overwhealmed by numbers.
I see.
I meant the tracing back, not the dimension magic. If her tracing back does not have the feats to reach across dimension then she will not even be able to know where the true form is, so no knowledge would be attained there.
Ohh, ok. Well, would this no give time for Lain to destroy her main body considering the amount of clones and the time delay caused by the bigger and heavier soul? I am not asking if Lain would get to destroy her 100 times out of 100 but just 60 out of 100 or something along those lines, since Kumoko cannot make clones in this key either so she would be overwhealmed by numbers.
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I see your point and I agree. Wouldn't the knowledge she gets from Wisdom and the memories of the bodies be enough to cover for that? Dimension magic just needs knowledge after all.
I would agree with that normally, but in her own earth, she has thousands of clones she can use. Moreover, with every bit she devours, she becomes stronger and gets their power. Lain doesn't really have a way to put down Kumoko due to Immortality and Regen, but Kumoko is getting stronger and stronger as long as the battle goes on. Moreover, has Lain detected something like that? Because Kumoko didn't get detected by Mother at the start but not even from Ariel (who knew Mother was being attacked). She only noticed after Mother's soul was half gone iirc. Ariel had stronger resistance and was stronger than Kumoko at the time, but she also fell victim and had a 50% chance of having the entirety of her soul stolen.
From everything stated above, my vote is as follows: -A win for Kumoko if she can reach the True Form -Inconclusive if she can't. Even if she doesn't kill Lain, she will just become Hella strong by eating the clones.
On a sidenote, can Lain delet clones that had their souls eaten completely? This won't happen in this fight probably, asking because I am curious.
Also, thanks for bearing with me. First time an a VSBW thread. I will reread later in case I missed something.
I would agree with that normally, but in her own earth, she has thousands of clones she can use. Moreover, with every bit she devours, she becomes stronger and gets their power. Lain doesn't really have a way to put down Kumoko due to Immortality and Regen, but Kumoko is getting stronger and stronger as long as the battle goes on. Moreover, has Lain detected something like that? Because Kumoko didn't get detected by Mother at the start but not even from Ariel (who knew Mother was being attacked). She only noticed after Mother's soul was half gone iirc. Ariel had stronger resistance and was stronger than Kumoko at the time, but she also fell victim and had a 50% chance of having the entirety of her soul stolen.
From everything stated above, my vote is as follows: -A win for Kumoko if she can reach the True Form -Inconclusive if she can't. Even if she doesn't kill Lain, she will just become Hella strong by eating the clones.
On a sidenote, can Lain delet clones that had their souls eaten completely? This won't happen in this fight probably, asking because I am curious.
Also, thanks for bearing with me. First time an a VSBW thread. I will reread later in case I missed something.
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She doesnt have type 6 tho
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Kumoko has the same kind of soul resistance and soul attack, possibly one of a higher degree. Absorption can also be countered by Kumoko as explained above^Torein said:
PhantomØ4
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No worries.
To answer your questions.
1. Her clones do not normally have all of her memories, but Lain's victory conditions come before getting her souls eaten anyways. I do know know what Wisdom is but if it is to know info about the opponent that would know show up since a lot of ID characters have high ranking info analysis and her type 6 was her secret.
2. She proabably would notice when she starts getting weaker, yes, not right away of coruse.
3. Lain has durability negation with her Law Manipulation/Spatial Manipulation so even if she got stronger she could probably still try to kill the main body.
To answer your questions.
1. Her clones do not normally have all of her memories, but Lain's victory conditions come before getting her souls eaten anyways. I do know know what Wisdom is but if it is to know info about the opponent that would know show up since a lot of ID characters have high ranking info analysis and her type 6 was her secret.
2. She proabably would notice when she starts getting weaker, yes, not right away of coruse.
3. Lain has durability negation with her Law Manipulation/Spatial Manipulation so even if she got stronger she could probably still try to kill the main body.
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1) Kumoko has many Ruler Titles, which block information analysis on herself and also help her break through in order to get info for her as well. Kain's main body (using manga as that's the one I have read) knew about the existence of the True Form. Lain B didn't
2)Makes sense
3)Kumoko has awareness of the space around her, so she could dodge that. Even if she didn't, she wouldn't die from it. [Immortality] makes her unable to die from most attacks, with the exception of Abyss Magic, because it deconstructs the soul and bypasses resistances. Unless you can get rid of her soul, this won't do much. The Regen is reliant on the soul, not the body. What kind of law Manip btw?
2)Makes sense
3)Kumoko has awareness of the space around her, so she could dodge that. Even if she didn't, she wouldn't die from it. [Immortality] makes her unable to die from most attacks, with the exception of Abyss Magic, because it deconstructs the soul and bypasses resistances. Unless you can get rid of her soul, this won't do much. The Regen is reliant on the soul, not the body. What kind of law Manip btw?
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In case I didn't mention it, absorption of her soul is resisted with Heresy Nullity (Soul and Mind immunity, albeit, it's only resistance as there is no true immunity). That's why she is able to devour stronger enemies, because their counters do nothing on her soul. With Immortality, even if someone's body is destroyed, they are still "alive"
PhantomØ4
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1) Instant Death characters have like 10 layers of resisatnce negation (Negating resistance that resists resiatnce negation ten times over).
3) It's an AoE ability that has a range of a few kilometers. It just allows them to. alter the laws of space at their will to for example make it so that no living being can possibly exist inside that area of space, or do not allow for things to travel through it. I'm still iffy on which series scales higher with souls tbh.
AH, it literally just came to me while typing this, but all Sages can set the resistance to an ability equal to zero.
3) It's an AoE ability that has a range of a few kilometers. It just allows them to. alter the laws of space at their will to for example make it so that no living being can possibly exist inside that area of space, or do not allow for things to travel through it. I'm still iffy on which series scales higher with souls tbh.
AH, it literally just came to me while typing this, but all Sages can set the resistance to an ability equal to zero.
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About souls, I assumed they were equal for the sake of an argument, but Kumoko requires an entire race to cast Soul Break to kill her, so she should be superior.
She countered negation from her 9 clones going stray on her that had the same stats and skills. She countered Negation with Negation and it was 1v9. This includes the Evil Eye skills described above, so it's safe to say she can counter those.
Can she set an ability to 0 even if she doesn't know it exists? Also, once Kumoko devours the souls from the clones (even part of them) she gains their stats and abilities in addition to herself. That's what I meant with "Feeding her".
She countered negation from her 9 clones going stray on her that had the same stats and skills. She countered Negation with Negation and it was 1v9. This includes the Evil Eye skills described above, so it's safe to say she can counter those.
Can she set an ability to 0 even if she doesn't know it exists? Also, once Kumoko devours the souls from the clones (even part of them) she gains their stats and abilities in addition to herself. That's what I meant with "Feeding her".
PhantomØ4
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My only problem with that is how the downscaling works, since being in the tens of thousands or higher of souls would make the statements make sense without scaling her to her stonger key.
It's not Power Nullification, it is Resistance Negation, may be similar but they are two different skills.
It's not Power Nullification, it is Resistance Negation, may be similar but they are two different skills.
PhantomØ4
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You added to your response before I could reply, oof. Her sage status does not come with her skills on the system, and her type 9 would not be copied via soul stuff either.
Yes, she would notice when her soul cannot be affected by her soul absorption or soul manipulation glance, one which is the starting move and the other one which is passive. If anything she could lower the resistance to 0 and with no defenses to her soul galnce she would incap her.
Yes, she would notice when her soul cannot be affected by her soul absorption or soul manipulation glance, one which is the starting move and the other one which is passive. If anything she could lower the resistance to 0 and with no defenses to her soul galnce she would incap her.
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The Power Null I am referring to is able to null skills in general, which include resistances. Skill sealing is also something she resisted.
Yeah, but there is no change in the power of her soul, so I don't see a reason not to. Of course, you can't downscale Shiraori's abilities because they are completely different, but the soul is the same. Only difference is that the soul is not connected to the system anymore.
Yeah, but there is no change in the power of her soul, so I don't see a reason not to. Of course, you can't downscale Shiraori's abilities because they are completely different, but the soul is the same. Only difference is that the soul is not connected to the system anymore.
PhantomØ4
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Still a different skill in nature regardless, but if we are going there she should be able to set at minimum the average resisatnce to abilities (Rank 4) to zero, which means she can negate resisatances that would resist it 4 times over. 9v1 is different from 4 layers of bypassion by the way.
But the statement seems to be refering to Gods in general not to Shiraori, which definetly makes it sound like it is inherent of Gods and not strong souls.
But the statement seems to be refering to Gods in general not to Shiraori, which definetly makes it sound like it is inherent of Gods and not strong souls.
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A god is a being with a strong soul, nothing more.
I'll get back at you later
I'll get back at you later
PhantomØ4
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Ok. I also know people are lazy at scrolling up to see more arguments so I guess I'll just bullet point stuff for people who want to vote. I think these are all the points that have not been dropped.
Kumoko
Kumoko
- Can slowly eat away the souls of her opponents and cause a domino effect for existences connected to the other existences. Somethong about kin subjucation and parallel minds.
- Soul manipulation resistance.
- Immortalities reliant on her soul being intact, transfering her soul or regenerating her body (I think)
- Regains energy when consuming the soul making the power her own and via the evil eye.
- Can reduce the opponent's stamina.
- Type 9 immortality where her true body would be in another dimension, Kumoko seems to lack feats to trace her back via her Domino effect to actually kill her true form.
- Passive soul absorption and soul manipulation that produces effects akin to the effects to Mind Manipulation.
- AoE law manipulation/spatial manipulation attack of several kilometers that can set the laws of space to make it impossible for living things to exist in or magic power to be sustainable.
- Resistance negation that can set the resistances of the enemy equal to 0 likeley bypasses 10, but at minimum 4, levels of absolute resistance.
- Can produce endless amounts of clones that can in turn clone themselves and so on to overwhealm the opponent.
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Lain Advantages
-Link to True Body can't be tracked by Kumoko -Has Law Manip (don't know if that's her go-to move tho, will need someone to clarify) -Resistance bypassing -Endless stamina -Massive Number Advantage
Lain Disadvantages
-Cant detect the soul erosion immediately, thus can't prepare countermeasures immediately. -True Form is featless. -Most abnormal conditions she deals are innefective.
Kumoko Advantages
-Larger soul (Lain's resistance scales to thousands/tens of thousands while White's soul requires the elf race to learn Soul Break and cast it on her) -Once she devours the soul, she gains the abilities and titles of the enemy and can use them against them, gaining Lain's powers -Has information about Lain's True Form via Soul Corrosion or Wisdom and can attack it via Dimension Magic. -Usual battle tactic if the opponent is strong is teleport away and stay away from them while eating their soul. -Almost endless stamina (requires Lain to be in sight for her to have endless stamina)
Kumoko Disadvantages
-Most abnormal conditions she deals are useless -Law Manip can destroy her body -Overwhelmed with Numbers
If Lain uses Law Manip instantly, then she may actually win (although Kumoko's soul could still be argued to be enough not to get absorbed and absorb Lain's instead). If she doesn't, Kumoko will eat the souls of the clones, attack the True Form and gain Lain's powers. From the manga, she doesn't use it, but it could be different in the novel.
Stats should be around equal for both of them iirc, although they are irrelevant for the most part.
-Link to True Body can't be tracked by Kumoko -Has Law Manip (don't know if that's her go-to move tho, will need someone to clarify) -Resistance bypassing -Endless stamina -Massive Number Advantage
Lain Disadvantages
-Cant detect the soul erosion immediately, thus can't prepare countermeasures immediately. -True Form is featless. -Most abnormal conditions she deals are innefective.
Kumoko Advantages
-Larger soul (Lain's resistance scales to thousands/tens of thousands while White's soul requires the elf race to learn Soul Break and cast it on her) -Once she devours the soul, she gains the abilities and titles of the enemy and can use them against them, gaining Lain's powers -Has information about Lain's True Form via Soul Corrosion or Wisdom and can attack it via Dimension Magic. -Usual battle tactic if the opponent is strong is teleport away and stay away from them while eating their soul. -Almost endless stamina (requires Lain to be in sight for her to have endless stamina)
Kumoko Disadvantages
-Most abnormal conditions she deals are useless -Law Manip can destroy her body -Overwhelmed with Numbers
If Lain uses Law Manip instantly, then she may actually win (although Kumoko's soul could still be argued to be enough not to get absorbed and absorb Lain's instead). If she doesn't, Kumoko will eat the souls of the clones, attack the True Form and gain Lain's powers. From the manga, she doesn't use it, but it could be different in the novel.
Stats should be around equal for both of them iirc, although they are irrelevant for the most part.
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Note that she ate the souls "slowly" because the opponent's soul was many times stronger than herself. A stronger soul can one shot a weaker soul. Moreover, Lain would have to kill all the wills to take down Kumoko, not only the main body.
For me, it goes like this: -Lain wins if her soul can resist soul erosion/absorption. Law Manip is useful, but only if used at the start of the fight.
-Kumoko wins as long as she can devour the souls (or part of the souls of the main body and other clones. She gets the skills (skills include magical, physical, biological powers and abilities) and titles of the ones she kills. If not, she has no way to beat Lain, except launching Dimension Magic on the true body, which may, or may not be useful against Lain (someone clarify).
So far, I am leaning towards Kumoko. Can Lain hide the existence of the True Form from Information analysis/her memories? And with that I mean, as soon as the fight starts. Also, is Law Manip her go-to strategy?
For me, it goes like this: -Lain wins if her soul can resist soul erosion/absorption. Law Manip is useful, but only if used at the start of the fight.
-Kumoko wins as long as she can devour the souls (or part of the souls of the main body and other clones. She gets the skills (skills include magical, physical, biological powers and abilities) and titles of the ones she kills. If not, she has no way to beat Lain, except launching Dimension Magic on the true body, which may, or may not be useful against Lain (someone clarify).
So far, I am leaning towards Kumoko. Can Lain hide the existence of the True Form from Information analysis/her memories? And with that I mean, as soon as the fight starts. Also, is Law Manip her go-to strategy?
PhantomØ4
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I honetsly think if we go on this would just become redundant, so I will answer these question and I'll just bump for others to vote so this can go somewhere.
1. Sheer number of souls to delay. Eating the faster = Lain will notice faster = Might try to shut down connection faster or just finish it faster. We normally take (ded) charcaters at peak experience from what I have seen and if so then Lain is also familiar with skills that can trace back connections.
2. Yes, she can in order for them to be lacking the knowledge. Law Manipulation is not her go to, her go to however would fail at the start but she has the resistance negation which seems to not be resisted as the closest thing to it is the power null. If she starts getting her soul eaten tho she would probably not just stand around either.
So now just BUMP.
1. Sheer number of souls to delay. Eating the faster = Lain will notice faster = Might try to shut down connection faster or just finish it faster. We normally take (ded) charcaters at peak experience from what I have seen and if so then Lain is also familiar with skills that can trace back connections.
2. Yes, she can in order for them to be lacking the knowledge. Law Manipulation is not her go to, her go to however would fail at the start but she has the resistance negation which seems to not be resisted as the closest thing to it is the power null. If she starts getting her soul eaten tho she would probably not just stand around either.
So now just BUMP.
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Bump.
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