This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Okay, that's not how ki works. You're using his ki as a frame of reference, for this argument to work, his ki must have received a colossal increase upon merging with the universe, which is not indicated in any way whatsoever in the story.
Doesn't matter, no one ever said 'Jiren has a superior...
Okay, that's not how ki works. You're using his ki as a frame of reference, for this argument to work, his ki must have received a colossal increase upon merging with the universe, which is not indicated in any way whatsoever in the story.
again, this still comes down to a comparison of ki from jiren to infinite zamasu, but his ki has nothing to do with becoming the universe; so the comparison has no actual weight. This "fusion" is simply a function of his immortality.
You're still using it as a power threshold, that Jiren, or anyone else above Infinite Zamasu, has a higher ki than him and so is also multiversal or whatever, but Zamasu's ki is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It has nothing to do with being able to accomplish this feat, so using it as a metric for other...
Obviously Jiren>Zamasu. But then, the claim is that him surpassing zamasu represents a new power threshhold that people call 2-C or whatever. But Zamasu....only "became" the multiverse because hes immortal and his body was destroyed. So....Jiren is stronger than immortality? That makes no...
That infinite zamasu should not just be treated as a character of a particular strength because he became existence itself and it had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with his power and everything to do with his immortality.
And, AS AN ASIDE, Merged Zamasu was not surpassed in 109, he was...
I literally never said that nor implied it.
Yes you did. You're arguing that infinite Zamasu is stronger than Jiren, therefore you think he's 3-A. Unless you have other reasons for low 2-C but I highly doubt you do.
How nice of you to explain what I'm arguing! Thanks so much!
But no, I did...
Because Zamasu is literally not a character in that case, he BECAME the universe itself. And all of these arguments that it was strength based have been complete nonsense.
"Oh he used the energy of existence" The only energy you could be referring to is Genki, which is essentially life energy...
Obviously Zamasu>>>>>>Jiren. But to say "oh the baseline 2-C is at Astral Zamasu because he became the universe" is nonsensical because you're attributing to power that is simply not a reflection of power. He became the universe because his body was destroyed and hes immortal, not because he is...
Because Zamasu is literally not a character in that case, he BECAME the universe itself. And all of these arguments that it was strength based have been complete nonsense. "Oh he used the energy of existence" The only energy you could be referring to is Genki, which is essentially life energy...
That's a very good question. I think Post UIS2 Goku SSJB and UIS2 Goku are roughly the same in power. Kelfa is roughly around the same power though her final attack boosted her power so great, she could one shot Goku. I think Vegeta would have the advantage as he was only slightly weaker to a...
Ki is irrelevant to his ability to merge with the universe. He merged with the universe because he is immortal and his body was destroyed. He cannot die, as he is immortal, so destroying his body simply had that result, erasure apparently ignores this
If making that argument is breaking wiki rules then this site needs new rules.
Okay, so ep 123 SSB Vegeta vs peak SSJ Kefla, who wins? interesting little versus match.
The original manga establishes that ki and Genki are distinctly different, when the Genki Dama is used. I haven't read the Moro arc yet so I don't know if this was retconned in the manga or something.
Yes, they can sense that he IS existence itself, because they can sense entities like far off planets, etc etc. But how does this prove that this is possible based on a ki signature? Because the "energy of existence", described before is Genki, and we've already established that this is not a...
Kaio is talking about Genki there. The "Spirit Bomb" is the funimation term, the actual term is "Genki Dama." Genki is not necessarily the energy of existence. Also, God ki and normal ki are completely different from genki. Genki, like with the genki dama, is your life energy such that losing...
The energy of existence? What are you talking about? Since when does existence itself have energy? For that matter, what makes you think this is off the basis of his energy? Did any character even make a comment about his ki?
Which means that he's stronger than Merged Zamasu. Astral Zamasu is it's own thing that really isn't even a character to compare to, he literally IS the fabric of matter itself, which isn't reletable to actual normal characters. You'd have to scale stronger characters to becoming matter itself...
You simply cannot really fight someone who literally IS the multiverse, its strange to say that you're "stronger" than the multiverse itself, its sort of different from being able to destroy it. And harming Zamasu would mean harming the multiverse. Harming the multiverse means harming Zamasu...
Yes. He has energy, hes still fundamentally different in any conventional sense to any other fighter. You simply cannot really compare him to anyone.
So do you also believe heavily suppressed Jiren>GoDs then right? Otherwise you're cherrypicking the implications you like. Do you also believe...
I mean it doesnt even necessarily make sense, because you cant really compare actual characters to an entity that literally is the multiverse. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Even if we do make the comparison by assuming Corrupted MZ full-power=Astral Zamasu, then Jiren is only stronger by...
You're just kind of explaining THAT he is stronger but not at all WHY that would make him stronger, and ignoring previous comments.
Again, if that is so, why is UI strong? Why would it make Goku stronger? Why isnt it that when he triggers UI, it is the same strength as SSB? After all, UI itself...
Well, exactly. Which is why I find it so strange that the terminology used is "post UIS1" or "Post UIS2" and then even attempt to project how much stronger he got by the 3rd omen and actual UI without actually having seen him fight again in the anime aside from against Vegeta. Or at least, if...
I think we've more or less assumed, due to that corraborating evidence and the sheer power boost UI gave him, that normal Goku became stronger as a byproduct of achieveing that state. There's also the very large evidence of base Goku keeping up with and fighting SS2 Caulifla post-UIO, even doing...
Okay is there anything that would show the rationale of expaining Goku's power increases in the ToP referenced in the wiki? I am curious what the argument is used exactly. I hope it's not the proverbial "SeththeProgrammer" argument, and the only blog I have seen about it doesn't seem very...
@A stoned Orc
Yes, exactly. Or, more generally it can be attributed to the general "saiyan hax" whether ir be mid-battle growth kr zenkais themselves. Which is why I wonder why this site seems to attribute it to UI Omen, especially since they attribute growth to Vegeta who never got UI.
"broke their limits" is never used in a sense that is Goku's growth in power, just related to UI or Kaioken.
Because THAT he got stronger, is not proof of WHY he got stronger. They are different things.
That isn't relevant to this conversation. I am discussing WHY people think he got stronger, which seems to be that he went through the "limit breaks" of going UI Omen, which I am trying to understand.
....are you referring to the "limit breaking power" comment by the narrator? When Goku went Kaioken and Vegeta went SSBE? That's obviously what that was referring to. And again, if Goku had drawn his power increases from UI, how did Vegeta catch up? Vegeta didn't break limits with UI Omen like...
Well yes. That explains why Ultra Instinct or Ultra Instinct Omen is so incredibly powerful;it is a manifestation of Goku breaking his limits, the same way Vegeta broke his limits to be SSBE, nobody is claiming Vegeta's normal power is stornger because he got SSBE. People seem to be arbitrarily...