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Well... I can understand. Well, back to the Children's Card Games.ArgosaxDespair said:
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 87
- Thread starter A_Stoned_Orc
- Start date
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- dragon ball moro son goku vegeta
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- 182
- 17
I think we've more or less assumed, due to that corraborating evidence and the sheer power boost UI gave him, that normal Goku became stronger as a byproduct of achieveing that state. There's also the very large evidence of base Goku keeping up with and fighting SS2 Caulifla post-UIO, even doing damage, when previously it was shown their SS2 forms were comparable; and a more flimsy statement, from when Goku stands back up to help Freeza and 17 against Jiren at the end of the tournament, yet another comment about them all having broken their limits was made by Goku himself to Freeza.
Again, this does not address why Ultra Instinct itself would be strong, if the "breaking his limits" applies in a general sense to his power increase, why would a UI Omen be such dramatically stronger from otherwise? It is itself only a technique that provides the capacity for autonomous movements. And his performance between the first and 2nd time fighting Caulfia itself, doesn't really suggest a large increase, he gained an advantage, but not overwhelmingly so, and we know this series has shown 1.1-1.3x advantages to yield enormous advantages in a fight. It isn't as though he won in a lesser form, he just performed better in the SAME form.
Goku became stronger from learning UIS, the same way he became stronger and imprinted the power of SSG when he first used it.
There's not really any evidence for that. Nothing suggests that he had adapted/absorbed the power the way that he did with SSG, especially given how explicit they were about it with SSG.
Again, this does not address why Ultra Instinct itself would be strong, if the "breaking his limits" applies in a general sense to his power increase, why would a UI Omen be such dramatically stronger from otherwise? It is itself only a technique that provides the capacity for autonomous movements. And his performance between the first and 2nd time fighting Caulfia itself, doesn't really suggest a large increase, he gained an advantage, but not overwhelmingly so, and we know this series has shown 1.1-1.3x advantages to yield enormous advantages in a fight. It isn't as though he won in a lesser form, he just performed better in the SAME form.
Goku became stronger from learning UIS, the same way he became stronger and imprinted the power of SSG when he first used it.
There's not really any evidence for that. Nothing suggests that he had adapted/absorbed the power the way that he did with SSG, especially given how explicit they were about it with SSG.
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Well, exactly. Which is why I find it so strange that the terminology used is "post UIS1" or "Post UIS2" and then even attempt to project how much stronger he got by the 3rd omen and actual UI without actually having seen him fight again in the anime aside from against Vegeta. Or at least, if not a literal zenkai, the Saiyan hax of growing as you fight against someone stronger/get pushed to their limits and beyond it. Unfortunately I don't think there is really many explicit things that show his growth, it's more so implicit, and I wish it was more clear.KLOL506 said:
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Post-UIS1, his exhausted SSB could briefly keep up and clash with SS Kefla, with his KK Blue hurting her. SS Kefla's energy is equal to the Spirit Bomb, which should be stronger than Pre-UIS1 KKX20 Blue.
Post-UIS2 Blue surpasses UIS1, because SSB Goku pushed Jiren harder than anything else in the tournament up to that point.
UIS3 and UI should have enabled a further boost, but there is little indication of how this boost would be.
It's also worth noting that Goku was constantly exhausted since he used UIS1, meaning we only ever saw his true potential after the ToP, in the Broly film. Seeing as physical exhaustion causes loss of power.
Post-UIS2 Blue > UIS1 > Spirit Bomb > Post-UIS1 Blue >/= Pre-UIS KKX20 Blue >> Pre-UIS Blue
Post-UIS2 Blue surpasses UIS1, because SSB Goku pushed Jiren harder than anything else in the tournament up to that point.
UIS3 and UI should have enabled a further boost, but there is little indication of how this boost would be.
It's also worth noting that Goku was constantly exhausted since he used UIS1, meaning we only ever saw his true potential after the ToP, in the Broly film. Seeing as physical exhaustion causes loss of power.
Post-UIS2 Blue > UIS1 > Spirit Bomb > Post-UIS1 Blue >/= Pre-UIS KKX20 Blue >> Pre-UIS Blue
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IDK if this has been shared but Dragon Ball Z Abridged will not be continued into the Buu Saga and therefore is ending after the Cell Saga according to Scott "Kaiser" on Patreon.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/end-of-dbza-33758684 Here is his statement
https://www.patreon.com/posts/end-of-dbza-33758684 Here is his statement
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- Thread starter
- #48
Gotta agree with Scott in that post, honestly. Cell Saga was always the best place to end the series. It had realized Toriyama's goal of making Gohan the hero, it was, well, perfect.
And looking at the Buu Saga, it is not written in a way that invites a parody. Buu at his worst has zero personality to work with, at his best is just pink Perfect Cell in a Turtle Hermit gi...
I'm just glad they said they're continuing with the DragonShortZ at all. Maybe, maybe in the future when their company is more financially stable a la RoosterTeeth, they'll be able to use the ShortZ style (or a much better version of it; I like how it is now, but it could use a spot of polish in places).
Regardless, I'm sickened to see so many comments ragging on them about this. This was inevitable, in one way or another. Ep. 60 was a perfect end--literally.
Sort of off-topic, though?
And looking at the Buu Saga, it is not written in a way that invites a parody. Buu at his worst has zero personality to work with, at his best is just pink Perfect Cell in a Turtle Hermit gi...
I'm just glad they said they're continuing with the DragonShortZ at all. Maybe, maybe in the future when their company is more financially stable a la RoosterTeeth, they'll be able to use the ShortZ style (or a much better version of it; I like how it is now, but it could use a spot of polish in places).
Regardless, I'm sickened to see so many comments ragging on them about this. This was inevitable, in one way or another. Ep. 60 was a perfect end--literally.
Sort of off-topic, though?
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Making Gohan the hero wasn't a goal, it was an idea that he dropped the moment he actualy put it in practice and making a character the hero is pointless if you end the franchise at the same time, the Cell saga wasn't a perfect ending and was never planned as one at all.
The view that Cell is better than Buu is only prevalent in the USA it seems given that Buu is vastly more popular in japan and Cell really has no common point with Buu.
People are raging because they litteraly promised season 4 and didn't deliver, i personaly don't care and sure there are reason but people being pissed off when you break a promise is normal.
The view that Cell is better than Buu is only prevalent in the USA it seems given that Buu is vastly more popular in japan and Cell really has no common point with Buu.
People are raging because they litteraly promised season 4 and didn't deliver, i personaly don't care and sure there are reason but people being pissed off when you break a promise is normal.
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I honestly agree. I like the exploration of the Super Saiyan form, and mastering its full potential but everything else is among some of the lowest points of Z, for me.
Android 19 and 20 aren't interesting, and were poorly thought out, 16, 17 and 18 have zero aggression or proactiveness, their entire goal is to just kill Goku and the worry that they have the 'potential' to be bad. Cell was overall good, but Semi-Perfect is an utter joke and the Cell Games had zero reason to exist.
It also ties into other reasons, like how Trunks being the son of Bulma and Vegeta is ridiculous nonsense, King Cold and Frieza being curbstomped just retroactively makes Namek look pathetic to hype up what are, ultimately, underwhelming villains until Cell arrives and also establishes that multiple people can achieve Super Saiyan.
I would even say the Android saga is where the cast became truly useless. Even against Frieza, I could see the value of Krillin, Gohan and Dende and feel like they stood a chance by working together. In the Android saga? The only person to rival the Saiyans is Piccolo, and he is an utter weakling compared to Ascended Vegeta, who is an utter weakling compared to MSS Goku.
Not to mention, every living character with a hint of Saiyan DNA has Super Saiyan by the end of the arc.
I don't know, it just felt like the Android saga is the arc responsible for heavily narrowing Dragon Ball's world down to 'Saiyans and Earth' after we saw an expansive and interesting universe of possibiilities in the Namek saga.
The Buu saga further discouraged this, everything came to Earth rather than Earth having to seek it (directly contrasting with Goku seeking things out in early Dragon Ball, Goku seeking things out in Otherworld and the Z-Fighters seeking out Namek).
Beerus opened up a huge can of worms for the world, and while it's heavily flawed, I appreciate how the Universe 6 tournament firmly establishes there are other fighters from other universes capable of challenging Goku and co but the issue still runs that all of the threats in the DBS anime came to Earth (Beerus, Frieza, Black) due to Goku and all of the challenges are due to Goku's actions (Universe 6, Tournament of Power) rather than something that he discovered in his journey.
That's why, while I criticise Toyotaro and the Moro arc, I really appreciate how Moro has no actual relation to the Z-Fighters or Earth. His entire story and backstory has nothing to do with them, or the Saiyans, and has helped flesh out the Dragon World greatly. I hope this style of writing and worldbuilding remains a constant for Toyotaro's future sagas.
Android 19 and 20 aren't interesting, and were poorly thought out, 16, 17 and 18 have zero aggression or proactiveness, their entire goal is to just kill Goku and the worry that they have the 'potential' to be bad. Cell was overall good, but Semi-Perfect is an utter joke and the Cell Games had zero reason to exist.
It also ties into other reasons, like how Trunks being the son of Bulma and Vegeta is ridiculous nonsense, King Cold and Frieza being curbstomped just retroactively makes Namek look pathetic to hype up what are, ultimately, underwhelming villains until Cell arrives and also establishes that multiple people can achieve Super Saiyan.
I would even say the Android saga is where the cast became truly useless. Even against Frieza, I could see the value of Krillin, Gohan and Dende and feel like they stood a chance by working together. In the Android saga? The only person to rival the Saiyans is Piccolo, and he is an utter weakling compared to Ascended Vegeta, who is an utter weakling compared to MSS Goku.
Not to mention, every living character with a hint of Saiyan DNA has Super Saiyan by the end of the arc.
I don't know, it just felt like the Android saga is the arc responsible for heavily narrowing Dragon Ball's world down to 'Saiyans and Earth' after we saw an expansive and interesting universe of possibiilities in the Namek saga.
The Buu saga further discouraged this, everything came to Earth rather than Earth having to seek it (directly contrasting with Goku seeking things out in early Dragon Ball, Goku seeking things out in Otherworld and the Z-Fighters seeking out Namek).
Beerus opened up a huge can of worms for the world, and while it's heavily flawed, I appreciate how the Universe 6 tournament firmly establishes there are other fighters from other universes capable of challenging Goku and co but the issue still runs that all of the threats in the DBS anime came to Earth (Beerus, Frieza, Black) due to Goku and all of the challenges are due to Goku's actions (Universe 6, Tournament of Power) rather than something that he discovered in his journey.
That's why, while I criticise Toyotaro and the Moro arc, I really appreciate how Moro has no actual relation to the Z-Fighters or Earth. His entire story and backstory has nothing to do with them, or the Saiyans, and has helped flesh out the Dragon World greatly. I hope this style of writing and worldbuilding remains a constant for Toyotaro's future sagas.
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- has child with man responsible for her boyfriend's murder. and effectively his murderer
- this is okay because he OOCly, supposedly, cheated on her
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You're just kind of explaining THAT he is stronger but not at all WHY that would make him stronger, and ignoring previous comments.CryoTheMayo said:
Again, if that is so, why is UI strong? Why would it make Goku stronger? Why isnt it that when he triggers UI, it is the same strength as SSB? After all, UI itself is simply the ability to move autonomously. Why did Vegeta get stronger even though he never achieved any UI Omens?
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Because they both 'broke their limits'. That's the only explanation provided in-universe.
BlastX
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To be fair, Bulma is also an utter bitch so she hooking up with Vegeta is something I can see.
Also, the cast was like always useless, by the time of the Red Ribbon Arc Goku practically did everything himself and assblasted the whole army, in the saiyan saga he clowned Nappa who clowned the Rest Of the Dragon Team and he still nearly killed himself in order to stand a chance against Vegeta.
The only time the rest of the Dragon Team helps is in support role or sparring partners to make the ones that can actually do something be able to save them.
Also, the cast was like always useless, by the time of the Red Ribbon Arc Goku practically did everything himself and assblasted the whole army, in the saiyan saga he clowned Nappa who clowned the Rest Of the Dragon Team and he still nearly killed himself in order to stand a chance against Vegeta.
The only time the rest of the Dragon Team helps is in support role or sparring partners to make the ones that can actually do something be able to save them.
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I don't care if they are actually effective. Them actually working at a team, and managing to hold up is what I like to see.
Did the fighters on Namek contribute to Frieza's defeat? Not for the most part, Goku did the bulk. Did they fight on Namek using their skill, teamwork and strategies, managing to hold up against Frieza's various forms and giving Goku the time to heal? Yes. And that's exactly what I like to see.
The only instance of this, that I can think of, after the Namek saga is Vegeta getting his ass kicked while Goku charged up a Spirit Bomb, and Hercule demanded Earth to lend all their energy. That technically counts as teamwork, but it doesn't particularly feel organic or well-written.
Much of early Dragon Ball was about Goku's direct rivalries with other people, his adventures on Earth and maturing into a man and both the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga focused on how the allies he made over the years, worked together to defend themselves and their people.
The Android Saga and Buu Saga did offer horror elements to Dragon Ball, but these elements haven't been used since then, and weren't effectively meshed with the ideas of teamwork and adventure presented in DB and Z.
Super stumbled heavily early on, but as time went on it started to recapture the elements of teamwork and adventure, and I feel the Moro arc displays excellent potential for future sagas by fully tapping into what really made Dragon Ball great.
Did the fighters on Namek contribute to Frieza's defeat? Not for the most part, Goku did the bulk. Did they fight on Namek using their skill, teamwork and strategies, managing to hold up against Frieza's various forms and giving Goku the time to heal? Yes. And that's exactly what I like to see.
The only instance of this, that I can think of, after the Namek saga is Vegeta getting his ass kicked while Goku charged up a Spirit Bomb, and Hercule demanded Earth to lend all their energy. That technically counts as teamwork, but it doesn't particularly feel organic or well-written.
Much of early Dragon Ball was about Goku's direct rivalries with other people, his adventures on Earth and maturing into a man and both the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga focused on how the allies he made over the years, worked together to defend themselves and their people.
The Android Saga and Buu Saga did offer horror elements to Dragon Ball, but these elements haven't been used since then, and weren't effectively meshed with the ideas of teamwork and adventure presented in DB and Z.
Super stumbled heavily early on, but as time went on it started to recapture the elements of teamwork and adventure, and I feel the Moro arc displays excellent potential for future sagas by fully tapping into what really made Dragon Ball great.
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I'm just saying, the whole team thing was only really present for some part of the saiyan saga (in which it succeed) and namek saga (in which it failed) and only returned in the TOP, It wasn't present for most of the franchise so you can't really blame the android saga and the Buu saga for that.
I like the Buu saga because it brough back the fantasy element and capitalised on the whole god thing that was always in the background.
I like the Buu saga because it brough back the fantasy element and capitalised on the whole god thing that was always in the background.
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The Saiyan Saga:
The epitome of Dragon Ball story telling. This is how to keep Goku the main hero of the story while introducing his legacy, Gohan, and keeping the rest of the cast relevant. The saiyans were all well written as villains, though I wish we could of had more weight with Raditz, since he was the brother of Goku. Goku vs Vegeta is one of the most iconic anime fights to this date. Overall Awesome Arc.
The Frieza Saga:
Probably when the stakes were highest in the DB Franchise. This part of the story is packed with action and we watch major character development between the likes of Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta. The Ginyu force was a fun time and Frieza is one of the greatest anime villains to date. The Super Saiyan transformation, do I need to say more? Oh yeah Goku vs Frieza is an amazing match between good and evil. This fight is the most Iconic fight in Dragon Ball and probably all of Shounen. Lot of inspiration for many future animes came from this arc. Overall Perfection.
Speaking of Perfection,
The Cell Saga:
The Cell Saga was good but it started to get confusing with the introduction of SSJ Grades and Time Travel's mechanics. Gohan was the center focus of this arc in many ways as it seemed both Goku and Vegeta had reached a barrier in their quest for power. He was very well written in this arc and Cell was an okay villain I liked his concept and his abilities of being this Bio Weapon of the Red Ribbon Army but he wasn't as complex as Frieza.This arc didn't wow me like the Frieza Saga but I do like some of the moments like, Vegeta's SSJ form, Trunks's introduction, Goku even showing off SSJ for the first time to the Androids, Tien's Neo Tribeam and Goku vs Cell etc. Of course we can't forget SSJ2 Gohan that was awesome. Overall that was a good arc but not as good as the Frieza Saga.
Ok Buu,
I actually like this arc but it needs some tough love. Buu was a fun character to watch, he can go from an innocent child, to devilishly cunning to an extreme monster of chaos I LOVE THAT. Goku SSJ2 is my favorite SSJ design to this date, though I am getting attached to SSJG a lot more since the Broly movie, and SSJ3 was so badass. I love the Fusions, Majin Vegeta's sacrifice, Gohan reaching his pinnacle and Spirit Bomb finale. I did however have things I hated about this arc, I hated the tournament, the power of the kaioshin makes no sense, Gohan being the strongest yet jobbing throughout the arc and what the heck was Piccolo doing? The stakes weren't high at all at this point because if Buu blew up the Earth, they just have the Namekians.
So a nice arc overall but I fricken love Goku vs Kid Buu so I'll always go back for that.
The epitome of Dragon Ball story telling. This is how to keep Goku the main hero of the story while introducing his legacy, Gohan, and keeping the rest of the cast relevant. The saiyans were all well written as villains, though I wish we could of had more weight with Raditz, since he was the brother of Goku. Goku vs Vegeta is one of the most iconic anime fights to this date. Overall Awesome Arc.
The Frieza Saga:
Probably when the stakes were highest in the DB Franchise. This part of the story is packed with action and we watch major character development between the likes of Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta. The Ginyu force was a fun time and Frieza is one of the greatest anime villains to date. The Super Saiyan transformation, do I need to say more? Oh yeah Goku vs Frieza is an amazing match between good and evil. This fight is the most Iconic fight in Dragon Ball and probably all of Shounen. Lot of inspiration for many future animes came from this arc. Overall Perfection.
Speaking of Perfection,
The Cell Saga:
The Cell Saga was good but it started to get confusing with the introduction of SSJ Grades and Time Travel's mechanics. Gohan was the center focus of this arc in many ways as it seemed both Goku and Vegeta had reached a barrier in their quest for power. He was very well written in this arc and Cell was an okay villain I liked his concept and his abilities of being this Bio Weapon of the Red Ribbon Army but he wasn't as complex as Frieza.This arc didn't wow me like the Frieza Saga but I do like some of the moments like, Vegeta's SSJ form, Trunks's introduction, Goku even showing off SSJ for the first time to the Androids, Tien's Neo Tribeam and Goku vs Cell etc. Of course we can't forget SSJ2 Gohan that was awesome. Overall that was a good arc but not as good as the Frieza Saga.
Ok Buu,
I actually like this arc but it needs some tough love. Buu was a fun character to watch, he can go from an innocent child, to devilishly cunning to an extreme monster of chaos I LOVE THAT. Goku SSJ2 is my favorite SSJ design to this date, though I am getting attached to SSJG a lot more since the Broly movie, and SSJ3 was so badass. I love the Fusions, Majin Vegeta's sacrifice, Gohan reaching his pinnacle and Spirit Bomb finale. I did however have things I hated about this arc, I hated the tournament, the power of the kaioshin makes no sense, Gohan being the strongest yet jobbing throughout the arc and what the heck was Piccolo doing? The stakes weren't high at all at this point because if Buu blew up the Earth, they just have the Namekians.
So a nice arc overall but I fricken love Goku vs Kid Buu so I'll always go back for that.
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It literally was a goal of Toriyama's set up as early as the Saiyan Saga. It's only the constant interference and meddling of his editor (and the push for more DB content after the success of the anime) that Toriyama went on to write the Buu Saga, where again, he tried to set Gohan up as the hero through Supreme Kai's training. No idea where you got that the Cell Saga was never planned as an ending, because it more or less was on Toriyama's part. Goku was dead, Gohan was set up to be the Earth's protector with a power greater than his father's, the whole nine yards.Dragomer said:
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It literally was a goal of Toriyama's set up as early as the Saiyan Saga. It's only the constant interference and meddling of his editor (and the push for more DB content after the success of the anime) that Toriyama went on to write the Buu Saga, where again, he tried to set Gohan up as the hero through Supreme Kai's training. No idea where you got that the Cell Saga was never planned as an ending, because it more or less was on Toriyama's part. Goku was dead, Gohan was set up to be the Earth's protector with a power greater than his father's, the whole nine yards.
No, it wasn't a goal, nothing ever said that, even in the android saga, Gohan is mostly in the background until the Cell fight.
There was no meddling nor interference, the cell saga was NEVER planned to be the end of dragon ball, that's a myth.
Goku was dead after the radditz fight too, it mean nothing.
Yes and instaling a new main character isn't what you do to end a serie, which is why the buu saga started with Gohan still being the MC, because you change MC to make a new era, not to end it.
No, it wasn't a goal, nothing ever said that, even in the android saga, Gohan is mostly in the background until the Cell fight.
There was no meddling nor interference, the cell saga was NEVER planned to be the end of dragon ball, that's a myth.
Goku was dead after the radditz fight too, it mean nothing.
Yes and instaling a new main character isn't what you do to end a serie, which is why the buu saga started with Gohan still being the MC, because you change MC to make a new era, not to end it.
GodlyCharmander
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Well, I'd like to debate about multipliers of the official forms. Not to upgrade the characters or anything, just for fun.
Here's my point of view:
First, we have the confirmation that Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, while showcasing an image of the Early Super Saiyan that Goku used to fight Freeza. (Yes, FrEeza.). As there's not only the confirmation from the Guide, but from the Power Levels too (Goku went from 3 Million to 150 Million, just like the Kaio-ken made him go to 3 Million to 60 Million), we can be sure of it. Pretty sure I don't have to link an image for this, as it is common knowledge at this point
Super Saiyan: 50x
Then, we have the grades. Second Grade's multiplier is higher than 50x, obviously, as SP Cell, who was SURE he could defeat Vegeta fairly easily , got stomped by 2nd Grade. Although we don't really have an specific number, I'd estimate to be 100x. Since you need to be at least two times stronger than someone to negate their attacks , and if i recall correctly, ASSJ Vegeta quite literally negated Cell's Galick Gun with his aura alone. Assuming SP Cell was as strong as Regular SSJ Vegeta, Vegeta would need to be twice as strong to negate his attack, if not more (since a Ki Blast is usually far stronger than its user).
I also had a Scan about Trunks holding Freeza's Supernova stating the same thing, but not necessarily involving Ki, but I lost it, so you'll have to trust me on this one if you don't quite consider the scan about the Ki Barrier valid.
Ascended Super Saiyan: At least 100x
Then we have Ultra Super Saiyan, aka Third Grade. And hey, we don't need to go too far for this one. First off, the fact he stood up against Perfect Cell in raw power should tell you that it is multiple times stronger than Second Grade, and then again, we have the El Legendario Manga which confirms that Third Grade gives Trunks 10x more power . We can't tell if it's 10x more than Second Grade, or than Regular SSJ. I'd assume it's based off Regular SSJ.
Third Grade: 500x
Now, for Full-Power Super Saiyan, or Mastered Super Saiyan. This is a sensitive topic, and I assume most people here think MSSJ is just as strong as Regular SSJ, but even after all that, I don't think so. Not to mention the whole situation with the DBS Movie, with Broly's MSSJ being far stronger than his Regular SSJ, we also have the fact that, first, Vegeta surpassed Goku during the fight against Dr. Gero and 19, THEN entered the chamber, reached a level multiple times stronger than Regular SSJ along with Trunks. Then Goku comes out of the chamber being stronger than Vegeta, AND Trunks while being in MSSJ. We can either assume Goku got 10-15x stronger than Vegeta within the same period of training (most of said training dedicated to getting Gohan to SSJ mind you) and that MSSJ is just SSJ, ooor we can assume MSSJ is actually a Fourth Grade which is at least as strong as Third Grade (probably way stronger). I think the latter is more logical, tho. We also have, you know, El Legendario Manga confirming that MSSJ is a level Vegeta cannot achieve, and that is stronger than the other forms , nothing special. We also have a guide stating that SSJ2 is a Fifth Grade
MSSJ: +500x
Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as MSSJ, again, Common Knowledge.
SSJ2: 1000x
Super Saiyan Three is four times stronger than Super Saiyan Two, again, Common Knowledge.
SSJ3: 4000x
Results:
SSJ: 50x
ASSJ: 100x
USSJ: 500x
MSSJ: 500x
SSJ2: 1000x
SSJ3: 4000x
That's my point of view about the forms in Dragon Ball Z, tell me your thoughts on it. I can also estimate the multipliers for the god forms based on those informations if anyone is interested.
Here's my point of view:
First, we have the confirmation that Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, while showcasing an image of the Early Super Saiyan that Goku used to fight Freeza. (Yes, FrEeza.). As there's not only the confirmation from the Guide, but from the Power Levels too (Goku went from 3 Million to 150 Million, just like the Kaio-ken made him go to 3 Million to 60 Million), we can be sure of it. Pretty sure I don't have to link an image for this, as it is common knowledge at this point
Super Saiyan: 50x
Then, we have the grades. Second Grade's multiplier is higher than 50x, obviously, as SP Cell, who was SURE he could defeat Vegeta fairly easily , got stomped by 2nd Grade. Although we don't really have an specific number, I'd estimate to be 100x. Since you need to be at least two times stronger than someone to negate their attacks , and if i recall correctly, ASSJ Vegeta quite literally negated Cell's Galick Gun with his aura alone. Assuming SP Cell was as strong as Regular SSJ Vegeta, Vegeta would need to be twice as strong to negate his attack, if not more (since a Ki Blast is usually far stronger than its user).
I also had a Scan about Trunks holding Freeza's Supernova stating the same thing, but not necessarily involving Ki, but I lost it, so you'll have to trust me on this one if you don't quite consider the scan about the Ki Barrier valid.
Ascended Super Saiyan: At least 100x
Then we have Ultra Super Saiyan, aka Third Grade. And hey, we don't need to go too far for this one. First off, the fact he stood up against Perfect Cell in raw power should tell you that it is multiple times stronger than Second Grade, and then again, we have the El Legendario Manga which confirms that Third Grade gives Trunks 10x more power . We can't tell if it's 10x more than Second Grade, or than Regular SSJ. I'd assume it's based off Regular SSJ.
Third Grade: 500x
Now, for Full-Power Super Saiyan, or Mastered Super Saiyan. This is a sensitive topic, and I assume most people here think MSSJ is just as strong as Regular SSJ, but even after all that, I don't think so. Not to mention the whole situation with the DBS Movie, with Broly's MSSJ being far stronger than his Regular SSJ, we also have the fact that, first, Vegeta surpassed Goku during the fight against Dr. Gero and 19, THEN entered the chamber, reached a level multiple times stronger than Regular SSJ along with Trunks. Then Goku comes out of the chamber being stronger than Vegeta, AND Trunks while being in MSSJ. We can either assume Goku got 10-15x stronger than Vegeta within the same period of training (most of said training dedicated to getting Gohan to SSJ mind you) and that MSSJ is just SSJ, ooor we can assume MSSJ is actually a Fourth Grade which is at least as strong as Third Grade (probably way stronger). I think the latter is more logical, tho. We also have, you know, El Legendario Manga confirming that MSSJ is a level Vegeta cannot achieve, and that is stronger than the other forms , nothing special. We also have a guide stating that SSJ2 is a Fifth Grade
MSSJ: +500x
Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as MSSJ, again, Common Knowledge.
SSJ2: 1000x
Super Saiyan Three is four times stronger than Super Saiyan Two, again, Common Knowledge.
SSJ3: 4000x
Results:
SSJ: 50x
ASSJ: 100x
USSJ: 500x
MSSJ: 500x
SSJ2: 1000x
SSJ3: 4000x
That's my point of view about the forms in Dragon Ball Z, tell me your thoughts on it. I can also estimate the multipliers for the god forms based on those informations if anyone is interested.
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AFAIK, only wanting to end it on the Pilaf Saga is sourced.BlastX said:
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In the Buu saga, Toriyama was probably just making stuff up as he went on judging by his interviews. He wasn't prepared for the success brought by the Freeza and Cell arcs.
I think Toriyama stated somewhere that working on weekly releases of Dragon Ball, mainly in the Buu saga, took its toll on him. There's also that thing about him not even knowing why Dragon Ball was popular and his other works (Blue Dragon, Kintoki, Chrono Trigger, Dr. Slump and Dragon Quest) never reaching his desired success while Dragon Ball, which he didn't even understand why it was so popular, pretty much dominated, making him work even harder without a proper preparation and tight deadlines.
I think Toriyama stated somewhere that working on weekly releases of Dragon Ball, mainly in the Buu saga, took its toll on him. There's also that thing about him not even knowing why Dragon Ball was popular and his other works (Blue Dragon, Kintoki, Chrono Trigger, Dr. Slump and Dragon Quest) never reaching his desired success while Dragon Ball, which he didn't even understand why it was so popular, pretty much dominated, making him work even harder without a proper preparation and tight deadlines.
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Wasn't the reason Toriyama even started Dragon Ball was because Dr Slump was so succeful his editors only allowed him to end it if he started another series right after it? And despite appearing otherwise nowadays, the Dr Slump crossover all the way back to the RR Saga was to boost Dragon Ball's sells by having Goku be with the more famous Arale.
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@Dragomer fair enough
@Ionliosite that's true for the early years of Dragon Ball, but DB quickly overthrew almost every manga at the time after Z
@Ionliosite that's true for the early years of Dragon Ball, but DB quickly overthrew almost every manga at the time after Z
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That's indeed true, it was with stuff like Piccolo and other alien foes that the series really got an amazing traction behind it. There's also the fact the anime brought more attention to it, as usual.ArgosaxDespair said:
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This is subjective but the peak of DBZ for me was the Saiyans and Namek saga. The threat was real and the stakes were high. The namek arc reveals Goku's origins and with the episode of Baradock back then it felt like Goku's character arc came full cycle after he beats Freiza.
The Cell saga keep switching the main antagonists and before finally settling for Cell and Cell himself is only cool when he reach his perfect form. The arc drags out in most boring ways and a lot of the fight and event felt half-heared. Heck, even DBZ Kakarot drop the bridge on the Andiros saga hard and foucs more on the other 2 arcs.
Buu saga is likely the weakest written arc with shiton of plot holes and PIS but somehow it manages to be much more entertaining than the Androds saga.
The Cell saga keep switching the main antagonists and before finally settling for Cell and Cell himself is only cool when he reach his perfect form. The arc drags out in most boring ways and a lot of the fight and event felt half-heared. Heck, even DBZ Kakarot drop the bridge on the Andiros saga hard and foucs more on the other 2 arcs.
Buu saga is likely the weakest written arc with shiton of plot holes and PIS but somehow it manages to be much more entertaining than the Androds saga.
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The Buu saga is full of a lot of cool lore an individual moment, as well as the strong closure of Vegeta's character arc. It's just that very little contributes to the plot
What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far
What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far
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...So you literally state that Vegeta broke his limits, increasing his overall power, but also claim that it only applies to new transformations for other characters? How does that even make sense? Hell, Caulifa was depicted as also 'breaking her limits' when Vegeta spoke about Saiyans, and that was more-or-less from her skills and power constantly growing against Goku.PFM18 said:
There is absolutely zero reason to believe Goku didn't grow stronger from breaking his limits, when multiple other Saiyans did that exact thing.
Nullflowerblush
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User:GodlyCharmander, you only used one source to justify Super Saiyan Fourth Grade being more powerful than vanilla Super Saiyan, and even that's an incorrect source for your argument.
You mentioned Broly's "MSSJ" being far more powerful than his regular Super Saiyan, but that's his Legendary Super Saiyan form. That form shares a name with Super Saiyan Fourth Grade (Super Saiyan Full Power) but they're never considered or appear to be remotely similar. It's just Type C and Type B Super Saiya.
Anyways, the El Manga Legendario post you shared stated that, "Although Goku manages to reach a state superior to that of Super Saiyan, he realizes that he will not be able to defeat Cell. Then, change your mind(?) and in the end get a level that Vegeta could not reach."
- Firstly, the Fourth Grade form is being deemed superior to First Grade because it just is. However, "being superior" does not automatically mean "more powerful". It could mean better in different areas, like the conversation of energy and control of emotions, which is what makes Fourth Grade the preferred form. And, just because it's the Fourth Grade doesn't mean it's superior to the rest. It's just enhanced First Grade.
- Secondly, "...a level that Vegeta could not reach" also does not imply that it is more powerful than the forms that Vegeta has (Second and Third Grade). It simply means that Vegeta doesn't have what it takes to achieve the Fourth Grade at the time, which he then gains in the Buu Saga. It doesn't mean it's that much stronger than he is.
- Thirdly, Post-HTC Fourth Grade Goku being more powerful than the other Second Grades does not mean that Fourth Grade is more powerful than it. I just assumed that it was obvious Goku and Gohan became significantly more powerful than the other characters in base, which is why they can take on that level of Cell, as opposed to Vegeta and Trunks who couldn't defeat a more suppressed Cell.
- Fourthly, under the Goku image in the El Manga Legendario scan, it reads both, (left) "Goku and Gohan train with the premise of considering the Super Saiyan state as a normal state," and (right) "Looking for the best state to face Cell without straining uselessly." These extra texts imply that Fourth Grade is just First Grade, but more refined. There are also these scans:
https://i.imgur.com/x7iweY7.jpg
https://pm1.narvii.com/7182/89420252765a92c785ae1a72dce4103943aef9ber1-1100-1650v2_hq.jpg
These just further the point that Fourth Grade is simply First Grade but trained to be second-hand, so that the users could stay calm despite Super Saiyan's roots in anger, and so that they could conserve energy, remaining in the form for days on end to maximize the potential of the form. It's a perfect balance between strength, speed, and stamina, which is what Goku wanted because of the drawbacks of Third Grade. He even mentioned that First Grade has a better balance than Third Grade.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6875/5ce31f39f4c05652642e316e97a0046d35c48091r1-1440-1314v2_hq.jpg
Then, there's the Daizenshuu stating that Fourth Grade draws Super Saiyan to its full power, which falls in line with my statement of it maximizing the form's potential, with its full power still being x50 base. This isn't drawing out the full power of all of the Super Saiyan forms, the Daizenshuu doesn't generalize the Super Saiyan Grades like that.
So yeah, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is just the First Grade but more stable so it can used at 100% all the time, which is the same principle used for Perfected Super Saiyan Blue from the manga. Everything else is pretty cool.
You mentioned Broly's "MSSJ" being far more powerful than his regular Super Saiyan, but that's his Legendary Super Saiyan form. That form shares a name with Super Saiyan Fourth Grade (Super Saiyan Full Power) but they're never considered or appear to be remotely similar. It's just Type C and Type B Super Saiya.
Anyways, the El Manga Legendario post you shared stated that, "Although Goku manages to reach a state superior to that of Super Saiyan, he realizes that he will not be able to defeat Cell. Then, change your mind(?) and in the end get a level that Vegeta could not reach."
- Firstly, the Fourth Grade form is being deemed superior to First Grade because it just is. However, "being superior" does not automatically mean "more powerful". It could mean better in different areas, like the conversation of energy and control of emotions, which is what makes Fourth Grade the preferred form. And, just because it's the Fourth Grade doesn't mean it's superior to the rest. It's just enhanced First Grade.
- Secondly, "...a level that Vegeta could not reach" also does not imply that it is more powerful than the forms that Vegeta has (Second and Third Grade). It simply means that Vegeta doesn't have what it takes to achieve the Fourth Grade at the time, which he then gains in the Buu Saga. It doesn't mean it's that much stronger than he is.
- Thirdly, Post-HTC Fourth Grade Goku being more powerful than the other Second Grades does not mean that Fourth Grade is more powerful than it. I just assumed that it was obvious Goku and Gohan became significantly more powerful than the other characters in base, which is why they can take on that level of Cell, as opposed to Vegeta and Trunks who couldn't defeat a more suppressed Cell.
- Fourthly, under the Goku image in the El Manga Legendario scan, it reads both, (left) "Goku and Gohan train with the premise of considering the Super Saiyan state as a normal state," and (right) "Looking for the best state to face Cell without straining uselessly." These extra texts imply that Fourth Grade is just First Grade, but more refined. There are also these scans:
https://i.imgur.com/x7iweY7.jpg
https://pm1.narvii.com/7182/89420252765a92c785ae1a72dce4103943aef9ber1-1100-1650v2_hq.jpg
These just further the point that Fourth Grade is simply First Grade but trained to be second-hand, so that the users could stay calm despite Super Saiyan's roots in anger, and so that they could conserve energy, remaining in the form for days on end to maximize the potential of the form. It's a perfect balance between strength, speed, and stamina, which is what Goku wanted because of the drawbacks of Third Grade. He even mentioned that First Grade has a better balance than Third Grade.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6875/5ce31f39f4c05652642e316e97a0046d35c48091r1-1440-1314v2_hq.jpg
Then, there's the Daizenshuu stating that Fourth Grade draws Super Saiyan to its full power, which falls in line with my statement of it maximizing the form's potential, with its full power still being x50 base. This isn't drawing out the full power of all of the Super Saiyan forms, the Daizenshuu doesn't generalize the Super Saiyan Grades like that.
So yeah, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is just the First Grade but more stable so it can used at 100% all the time, which is the same principle used for Perfected Super Saiyan Blue from the manga. Everything else is pretty cool.
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