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Genshin Impact — Columbina Logic Manipulation Resistance

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MSahla

MSahla

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Introduction

I'm proposing this basically got inspired from this QnA thread of mine.
Columbina should have resistance to Logic Manipulation.

ce3af14c6559.png


I am posting this on normal Content Revision forum as it involved a controversial ability, which is Logic Manipulation. If this is self-evident enough then I don't mind moving this to Self-Evident Content Revisions forum.

Moon Sisters, Columbina and "Reason"

Columbina before becoming the Trilune Goddess, was Moon Goddess whose existence was being rejected by the natural order of the world. This is because, the Moon Goddesses/Three Moon Sisters in the past did something that offended the Heavenly Principles. The Heavenly Principles then erased the rationale that once sustained their existence, which of course affecting Columbina too as a newborn Moon Goddess for the same reason before. Hence why, Columbina is slowly dying and once became invisible leading her to death because of the world rejecting her existence. Simply put, it is about rejecting the logical basis upon which Columbina, and the Moon Sisters, are recognized by reality. In other words, reality itself no longer accepts them as a valid existence because the governing principle of Reason has denied it.

The Heavenly Principles embody Reason itself, along with their Shades embody their own thing (Life, Death, Time and Space). Reason is the Foundational Laws of Reality and the one that governs the fundamental principles of perception, as well as the natural order that governs common sense itself.

Conclusion

Columbina should have Resistance to Logic Manipulation for her Weakened key, because that is where she was got rejected by the world. Upon becoming the Trilune Goddess, the world is no longer rejected her existence, so therefore she should not longer possess the resistance. I don't know if this should be "Limited Resistance to Logic Manipulation", so I'll leave it to the Staffs about that.


Agreed:

Neutral:

Disagree: TheGreatJedi13 - Planck69
 
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It looks good.

Edit: Considering that the return of the Frost Moon prevents Columbina from fading away, and it is not explicitly stated that the rejection of Teyvat imposed by the Heavenly Principles has ceased, I believe Columbina should have “limited” resistance before becoming the Trilune Goddess—enough to resist fading, yet still be gradually affected by it. After becoming the Trilune Goddess, she should have complete resistance. This is because it is only stated that the return of the Frost Moon to Teyvat prevents Columbina from fading, but it is not stated that the rejection imposed by the Heavenly Principles on the Moon Goddesses has been lifted.
 
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Didn't open a single scan, nor will I comment on the ability itself, but why would becoming a Trilune God remove her resistance based on that reasoning? She certainly didn't lose her ability to resist, did she?
 
AstraphelNoctis4 said:
Didn't open a single scan, nor will I comment on the ability itself, but why would becoming a Trilune God remove her resistance based on that reasoning? She certainly didn't lose her ability to resist, did she?
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Well, because, as said here, The Frost Moon, which is her moon has entered the false sky, because the Heavenly Principles once throw the Frost Moon beyond the false sky. Columbina is basically bound to her moon (hence Type 8 Immortality).

Another reason is that, the Three Moons once possessed a threat to Teyvat because of Nibelung once transform them into a space-based weapon to destroy the Planet/Teyvat. Now that Nibelung is dead because he got defeated by the Heavenly Principles, the Moons are no longer a threat to Teyvat.
 
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Oh yeah, and here's the part where it says she's now accepted by the world from her Character Story 5. I simply forgot where did they state that she was no longer rejected, and now I've found it.
Home is acceptance.

The Frost Moon passed through the false sky and remained in Teyvat. Columbina Hyposelenia, too, was accepted by this world. Now, it was her turn to try to accept the world in return.

The first thing she did was move aside the massive boulder blocking Silvermoon Hall's entrance. It had once been placed there to keep the Frostmoon Scions and the Fatui from finding her. Now, it no longer seemed necessary.

Her friends in Nod-Krai often told her she was welcome to visit their homes. It was only right that she did the same for her friends, and for her "family."

Home is freedom.

There were no longer rules rejecting her existence. No places she was forbidden to go. No one coming to seize her...

She could go wherever she wished, do whatever she pleased.

Of course, learning to deal with others came with its share of stumbles. Once, while strolling through Nasha Town, she nearly fell for a malicious scam and was sharply scolded by Nefer, who had to save the day. Another time, while wandering freely through Nod-Krai, she accidentally entered a restricted area of Piramida and Illuga had to politely escort her out...

Well, being scolded, too, was part of life among family. Columbina understood that now.

And of course, so was learning to correct one's mistakes.

Home is...

Hehe, home can be many things, Columbina thought.

It is found in the small details of everyday life — in all the fresh, unfamiliar things she has only just begun to notice and experience.

And it is something that will remain with her, always, throughout her journey in this world.
Click to expand...
 
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AsterReal said:
It shouldn't eliminate resistance, but I guess OP must believe that for some reason.
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Why I think it's limited is because the world has accepted her and there are no longer rules to reject her existence after becoming the Trilune Goddess. Hence why I think it's limited to her Weakened state only.

But, if the staffs thinks differently, then I don't mind hearing them.
 
To justify the existence of Logic Manipulation as a separate ability instead of being appended to an ability like Law Manipulation, and in order to prevent equivocation fallacies, it is necessary to provide a rigorous definition of what qualifies as "logic", because fiction is littered with hyperbolic statements of characters "violating logic", and a verse may function off of alternative systems that are not rooted in classical logic.

Logic is defined in the real world as the study of correct reasoning. Translating this to fiction, manipulation of logic would essentially involve manipulating the rules governing deductive reasoning. Such rules provide the grounding for any deductive inference about the world, and thus for any and all intelligibility whatsoever. As such, they are not, and cannot be, rooted in any laws more fundamental than themselves. Rather, they are the basis for any and all laws, calculation, and relations between phenomena.

As should be obvious by now, simple statements of characters "doing the impossible" or "breaking logic" are not nearly enough to qualify for this ability. Characters must be shown to be capable of directly interfering with a form of deductive reasoning that tangibly governs their verse's reality, and acts as the grounding for intelligibility within the verse.
Click to expand...
 
I don't think that's how Logic works in the wiki.
Logic hax in the wiki isn't just reasoning and rationale, but classical logic. which means one must be able to manipulate logic and, in turn, its core principles like
Law of Non-Contradiction, Law of Identity, Law of Excluded Middle. And none of the scans seem to hint at such being violated or manipulated.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I don't think that's how Logic works in the wiki.
Logic hax in the wiki isn't just reasoning and rationale, but classical logic. which means one must be able to manipulate logic and, in turn, its core principles like
Law of Non-Contradiction, Law of Identity, Law of Excluded Middle. And none of the scans seem to hint at such being violated or manipulated.
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I'll take that as Disagree at the moment?
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Law of Non-Contradiction, Law of Identity, Law of Excluded Middle
Click to expand...
Isnn't rationale, common sense is somewhat parts of these laws? Like common sense is that A is A (law of identity) and that if someone can bend this then they are bending logic?
 
Vietthai96 said:
Isnn't rationale, common sense is somewhat parts of these laws? Like common sense is that A is A (law of identity) and that if someone can bend this then they are bending logic?
Click to expand...
What I meant there is the fact that even if Rationale or Reason is mentioned. If there isn't a hint or a direct confirmation that it actually pertaining to those 3 laws (As rationale and Reason can mean something else and not necessarily be about classical logic). We couldn't assume it included those because they would be too unspecific as DT says in the link on my latest reply as per his reply here
That it exists isn't the question. The question is if it's part of that set. I don't assume logical laws are a part of a set of laws unless very specifically stated, nor do I default to the assumption that they are part of "all laws" if stated in a general way.
Click to expand...
 
Could these feats of that Reason be a supporting evidence?

e06f48cc210b.jpg


They could create a place that is neither existence nor non-existence
11cca4e3e673.jpg

神殿的最高处「非有非无有之殿」那是神明与守望的居处。据说可能会保存一些隐秘的事物。"At the highest point of the temple lies the 'Hall of Neither Existence Nor Nonexistence', the dwelling place of the gods and the Watchers. It is said that some hidden secrets may be preserved there."

f506027c1c6a.jpg
 
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MSahla said:
Could these feats of that Reason be a supporting evidence?

e06f48cc210b.jpg


They could create a place that is neither existence nor non-existence
11cca4e3e673.jpg

神殿的最高处「非有非无有之殿」那是神明与守望的居处。据说可能会保存一些隐秘的事物。"At the highest point of the temple lies the 'Hall of Neither Existence Nor Nonexistence', the dwelling place of the gods and the Watchers. It is said that some hidden secrets may be preserved there."
f506027c1c6a.jpg
Click to expand...
TheGreatJedi13 said:
What I meant there is the fact that even if Rationale or Reason is mentioned. If there isn't a hint or a direct confirmation that it actually pertaining to those 3 laws (As rationale and Reason can mean something else and not necessarily be about classical logic). We couldn't assume it included those because they would be too unspecific as DT says in the link on my latest reply as per his reply here
Click to expand...
What do you think?
 
Vietthai96 said:
Isnn't rationale, common sense is somewhat parts of these laws? Like common sense is that A is A (law of identity) and that if someone can bend this then they are bending logic?
Click to expand...
The classical laws of logic being common sense doesn't necessarily mean all common sense/rationale as used in a story is classical logic. Unlike the former, terms like common sense and rationale have more mundane uses and understandings, especially in fiction, so they need more specific statements than just being name dropped.

Mbpoops said:
Why is ts genuienly more restricted than T0 😭😭✌️
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Mostly because it's extremely broad at the highest interpretation. So we need works of fiction to be this blunt in order to get it.
 
MSahla said:
Could these feats of that Reason be a supporting evidence?

e06f48cc210b.jpg


They could create a place that is neither existence nor non-existence
11cca4e3e673.jpg

神殿的最高处「非有非无有之殿」那是神明与守望的居处。据说可能会保存一些隐秘的事物。"At the highest point of the temple lies the 'Hall of Neither Existence Nor Nonexistence', the dwelling place of the gods and the Watchers. It is said that some hidden secrets may be preserved there."

f506027c1c6a.jpg
Click to expand...
Planck69 said:
..
Click to expand...

Hello there. Do you think those things that I mentioned can be use for the supporting evidence for the Reason that we talk about right now?
 
The above just seems to be very potent Void Manipulation and some flavour of Nonexistent Physiology.
 
Although this thread is very unlikely to get accepted, but I just wanna hear more thoughts. I'll request to close this thread when I'm ready.
 
Alternatively, as Columbina states. “There were no longer rules rejecting her existence.” We should opt for limited resistance to Law Manipulation. In the event that Resistance to Logic Manipulation is not accepted.

I suppose something like this should work:

Limited resistance to Law Manipulation (After the Three Moon Goddesses had offended the Heavenly Principles, the latter erased the fundamental logic that underpinned the Moon Goddesses’ existence, and as a result, The world of Teyvat ceased to recognize them, and they began to suffer “the world’s rejection”; consequently, the world would strip them of their powers and cause the Moon Goddesses to disappear. As Columbina herself states, Teyvat’s rejection of her as a Moon Goddess was due to the existence of rules that denied her existence. Columbina was able to endure Teyvat’s rejection for 500 years and managed to partially reverse it when she was nearly erased after losing her physical body)
Click to expand...
 
AsterReal said:
Alternatively, as Columbina states. “There were no longer rules rejecting her existence.” We should opt for limited resistance to Law Manipulation. In the event that Resistance to Logic Manipulation is not accepted.

I suppose something like this should work:
Click to expand...
Hmm.. I don't think that's how it works. Before, the world's rules treated her as an incompatible existence, causing her to gradually disappear and dying. Afterward, those same rules are no longer rejected her, allowing her to exist normally. That means the rules are still governing her, it's just their interaction with her simply changed. If anything, this shows that the world's laws are still capable of affecting her. The only difference is that the outcome changed from "rejected" to "accepted." Acceptance by a law is the opposite of resisting or transcending that law.
 
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