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Am I missing something
because you can be reduced/dissolution back into nothingness that's the entire point of a monad and lower existences once they become complete .(im.tired)
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Is this BDE2?
- Thread starter PHANtomFELdway
- Start date
because you can be reduced/dissolution back into nothingness that's the entire point of a monad and lower existences once they become complete .(im.tired)
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I didn’t bring up jinwoo being a monad yet
. It kinda relies on this a bit.
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Jinwoo being a monad doesn't matter lolI didn’t bring up jinwoo being a monad yet
I'm just speaking in general returning back to something and becoming that thing itself should almost always put you at a higher state since it proves everything is a lower state of itself especially when the realm/thing encompasses all aspect of the lower state lol
Astral_Trinity439
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From the BDE page, first the definition:
Then the methods:
With that said, given that this void in question is indeed like a backdrop containing the universes (and the world tree as a whole) yet being vaster than them, qualitative superiority is achieved here.
LOTM_Historian
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I'm open to the idea of this being classified as 1-A, but I don't have a deep understanding of the series or the specific criteria for Voids of Nothingness being on that tier. Based on what I do know, though, it seems to meet the qualifications as far as I'm aware.
Really wish Ultima was still as active to help us out.
Really wish Ultima was still as active to help us out.
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Agree
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ROZAN-U
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You need staff approval. Staff can add themselves tho
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You don't need staff approval. Anyone can add themselves. Also, Astral is not a knowledgeable person on that tier. Given his history of having multiple Tier 1 threads denied in the past for what was extremely obviously non-consequential evidence.
EldemadeDityjon
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Astral_Trinity439
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Just gonna answer this, I believe you already know both those tier 1 topics (LN and WN tensura) were already accepted later on. And I don't remember myself failing multiple times with tier 1 (the only time was with LN tensura, once, which was accepted later with my and others' participation)
Regardless, whether people think I'm knowledgeable or not is their free opinion, and I don't mind it. I'm just here to provide answers per my opinion when asked.
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My new favorite admin
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Hi all. Connection issues on my end are all solved at last, so, figured I'd start hopping in more often, hopefully.
So, what I want to talk about is this bit in the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page:
vsbattles.fandom.com
So, what I want to talk about is this bit in the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page:
Beyond-Dimensional Existence
Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Seen it. Pretty much the same thing already said multiple times. It needs more proof regarding time part. Tho I already have a few things to prove it.Hi all. Connection issues on my end are all solved at last, so, figured I'd start hopping in more often, hopefully.
So, what I want to talk about is this bit in the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page:
Beyond-Dimensional Existence
Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in...
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From what I see, I disagree.
Being the void backdrop of universes doesn't provide context toward the core requirement of qualitative superiority.
Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.
1-A level of existence is akin to our Reality-Fiction Transcendence standards. It is impossible for anything from the lower realms to influence the higher realm.
Astral_Trinity439
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Lacking that physical composition as in type 1 would more be the kind of Void that has no value at all, it's nothingness insofar as being inferior
But the same cannot be said for nothingness that contains Space-time.
although per what Ultima's recent thread is changing, one needs to prove that the void lacks space-time to begin with, but under the assumption that such is true (hoping @PHANtomFELdway , aka the OP, can provide scans for that later), being "vaster" than space time would indicate superiority.
It's by the analogy that when talking about non-composite things, they either lack the composite normally, or lack it as a by-product of transcending it.
If it only lacked it, the void can't really even be "vaster" than space-time the same way fiction cannot be vaster than reality: fiction is quite literally "nothing" (an empty set) inferior to reality. On the other hand, if it holds some form of superiority that isn't just more raw power (may be due to metaphysical potential or the like) but more so indicates it being real and not just "nothing at all", that by nature of ontology is the second type (lacking something by nature of being qualitatively superior it).
The BDE page itself is saying that a void that lacks physical composition, space and time (must be stated to, per what Ultima said), yet is vaster than reality, is 1-A.
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This wasn’t even the main reason for superiority. This void represents the concept of death in verse. It is absolute and nothing can go against it.Everything is bound by death.no matter how omnipotent or absolute the power may seem. Death is the end of such a thing. There is no such thing as infinite power cause nothing lasts forever as death is always there. Yet infinite power in the sense of being able to create something infinite in size does exist,as the absolute being is able to create an infinite sized universe. Death is infinite/eternal, its reason for superiority is simply that everything else is finite,while it is infinite
This applies to the absolute being who created time and space as well as all the other laws\concepts,yet as it was stated previously,Blessing's (which are power) are useless In the face of death,it is the very thing that can destroy everything
It is a void,something not physical in the first place. Even more so. This is a spiritual universe,a realm of consciousness unaffected by time.being a realm of thought,it should not be physical. (Will check for more scans ) this realm isn’t of the same nature as the world,while also having superiority over it,as nothing can resist it, it is capable of destroying everything. (Would it help if this void was a character and not a structure? Then it would be a monad )
Also ,the statement about it being impossible,is not true,for jinwoo ,nothing is impossible
That is how it works,everything is bound by it ,it cannot be reached unless you die/dream
Btw if some scans are missing, it is cause I already sent them here in my other comments. There are like 5 scans saying it can destroy everything.there are more scans that can help with other things as well, but I need to look through the like 500 scans I have.
Death is absolute (here are some of the scans saying it can destroy everything. There are like 2 more statements)
So according to what I understood from ultima,due to it having superiority ,the nature of it is an ontological one
Post in thread 'The Dread Tiering System Revisions'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-dread-tiering-system-revisions.168871/post-6610854
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Digital_Franz
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Holy **** who said that because it's a realm of "thought" it lacks space? This thing is just self-contradictory and there is no indication that it is lacks out of space. Well don't take your time to answer me because I probably won't answer.
The funniest part is the scaling. When you'll say who scales and why it will just debunk the whole thing.
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I said since it is a realm of thought, it lacks physicality…cause thoughts aren’t physical…
The only person who scales to it is jinwoo.
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And we disagree with that in the first place...
Digital_Franz
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And why? Thought can exist in a physical realm and even make up space.
Wut lol.
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The realm itself is literally spiritual,a realm of thought. Its very nature is of something that isn’t physical. They are opposites. It isn’t thoughts existing in a physical place. Only your consciousness goes there. Even more so,this is yet again a void of nothingness
Yeah this isn’t something debatable.it is literally the world jinwoo controls.
The sea of death is located IN eternal rest. Sea of death is encompassed by eternal rest.we know that monarchs go to the sea of death,yet it is stated that they go to eternal rest.
What is eternal rest?
It is the world beyond death
Even more so he transcends death.
Jinwoo rules over death. (I can find like 30+ scans for this with how many times it is stated)
Yet what does he rule?
He rules the sea of death. The deepest reaches of darkness
He rules death itself,has a world that is beyond and holds death inside it. yet he somehow doesn’t scale to death.
Yet how is it that he himself is death? A logical contradiction,as he is death itself,yet also transcends himself,as well as rules over himself?
Jinwoo is eternal rest itself. The very thing that is beyond death,and encompasses it.he is therefore both death and beyond it.which doesn’t lead to a contradiction.
To give more evidence The entire world is contained inside of the shadow (the shadow world/eternal rest),including the abyss itself.and we already know what the abyss is
(There is NO wank in here
) jinwoo is a monad that encompasses everything. Saying otherwise leads to a contradiction of Jinwoo transcending himself
Digital_Franz
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Spiritual realm means nothing.
Proof? Can you prove it lacks space without using "it's spiritual, it's a realm of thought"?
Lol. Nothing indicating it lacks space.
?? Who said that to you bro?
Void of nothingness means nothing. Consciousness going here means nothing. I remember like how in some verse there are shots like Heaven where the Consciousness goes but it has space. There isn't standard for this.
All this just for me to say: and?The sea of death is located IN eternal rest. Sea of death is encompassed by eternal rest.we know that monarchs go to the sea of death,yet it is stated that they go to eternal rest.
What is eternal rest?
It is the world beyond death
Even more so he transcends death.
Jinwoo rules over death. (I can find like 30+ scans for this with how many times it is stated)
Yet what does he rule?
He rules the sea of death. The deepest reaches of darkness
He rules death itself,has a world that is beyond and holds death inside it. yet he somehow doesn’t scale to death.
Yet how is it that he himself is death? A logical contradiction,as he is death itself,yet also transcends himself,as well as rules over himself?
Jinwoo is eternal rest itself. The very thing that is beyond death,and encompasses it.he is therefore both death and beyond it.which doesn’t lead to a contradiction.
To give more evidence The entire world is contained inside of the shadow (the shadow world/eternal rest),including the abyss itself.and we already know what the abyss is
(There is NO wank in here
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. I have scans for lacking space
Lower void is directly called a vast void of space
A infinite universe of nothingness/emptiness
And being who are from this realm are stated to be beings who don't exist in the first place yet they also become more nothing once they die and return back to death.
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It means that it isn’t physical. It isn’t the same nature as the world which is one of the requirements.
I never said at any point in my argument that it lacks space cause it is spiritual.stop strawmanning what I said.
A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely
Idk if it is just me,put is see three things. It being spiritual was showing that it is not physical and therefore lacks physicality. ONE of the THREE requirements. I even said that I would look for more scans . The only other times I mentioned space or time was when I said stuff about it existing before all concepts and that it’s very nature is above the absolute being who created concepts,and his powers would not be able to affect it,therefore it wouldn’t be affected by time. I also sent the scan about consciousness being unaffected by time.
At no point was my argument that it lacks space and time cause it is spiritual.
Like I said above
Idk what you were trying to say.
Yet again I never said that.i did find a scan that should help tho. A gate (a portal that manipulates space and time to teleport) does not work cause it is a world of nothingness. There is nothing to manipulate
It was more so a response to dark souls who said jinwoo somehow doesn’t scale to the world he controls
Digital_Franz
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You know, uh this means nothing. Just the cosmic void can be called void of space.
Yeah sure, infinite univers empty.
Yes and? I can see that thought exists there.
It doesn't mean that, stop guessing things.
It isn't about stawmanning what you said, just that what you said is utterly wrong. Like with void of nothingness, Spiritual reams doesn't inherently lacks physicality.
And? Here it's just you saying it lacks space, time and physicality without a direct statement, just that because it's called this it lacks that. Lol.
Nuh. Spiritual means nothning.
Sure and I'm saying that you should find other scans talking about lacking physicality because yuh you see the thing.
This is just nothing. The absolute being created the shadow monarch and gave him his powers, this entire thing sucks but meh I'm not here to discuss this.
Sure.
It's not because there's nothing to manipulate, it's just ineffective. The dimensional rifts were forcibly created but uh they couldn't reach their target, just that.
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Never said that yet again.stop putting words in my mouth.
It is a realm of thought.yet again that shi is not physical. Physical and spiritual are opposites in verse. And spiritual is NOT physical in verse .
Absolute being didn’t create shi. He is a fraud . He didn’t even make the monarchs, he just split a giant 8 headed snake into 8 peices and that is how monarchs were born. Whole reason each monarch is as strong as the absolute being and how he got killed when he got ganged up on. He used someone else power to make them and couldn’t handle it when they turned on him. All of them are =
The snake only has 8 heads so Jinwoo isn’t even really a monarch,his darkness comes from somewhere else
Idk how you came to the conclusion that it was a range problem when you know that thier range is multiple universes. Previous scan I sent literally an illusion of jinwoo perception covered countless universes and reached his real body.scan quite literally says that the reason it didn’t work is cause the world is a world of nothingness. The very nature of that world did not allow for manipulation.
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I don't understand the thought point because even dreams are nothingness in this realm care to explain more on this?
This realm exist independent from the different time spaces and once an entire dimension(time-space universe) is destroyed all that remains is the gap why would this hint at anything other then lacking space?
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Two things must occur to get 1-A.
1. Structure must transcend the concept of space and time. This is to say that no extensions and dimensions of either can reach that level of existence. That is what qualifies for BDE2.
This is not the same thing as lacking space-time or being a void of nonexistence. It necessitates explicit transcendence of the concepts.
And just being larger than a space-time structure isn't ground for saying it's some higher level of existence or a qualifier, as that Ultima thread points out.
2. For 1-A, on top of #1, the structure has to exceed lower space-time to the point that it is not composed of whatsoever. Meaning that it isn't just a greater amount of "stuff." Said lower realms and concepts are practically non-existent relative to its qualitative state.
Just being a void and having no composition because you are a void is also non-consequential.
These void realms overall have been a big pain in the ass, I imagine. Because people tend to really misconstrue what the explanations mean and extrapolate the flowery nature of void realms like this to align with the standards.
1. Structure must transcend the concept of space and time. This is to say that no extensions and dimensions of either can reach that level of existence. That is what qualifies for BDE2.
This is not the same thing as lacking space-time or being a void of nonexistence. It necessitates explicit transcendence of the concepts.
And just being larger than a space-time structure isn't ground for saying it's some higher level of existence or a qualifier, as that Ultima thread points out.
2. For 1-A, on top of #1, the structure has to exceed lower space-time to the point that it is not composed of whatsoever. Meaning that it isn't just a greater amount of "stuff." Said lower realms and concepts are practically non-existent relative to its qualitative state.
Just being a void and having no composition because you are a void is also non-consequential.
These void realms overall have been a big pain in the ass, I imagine. Because people tend to really misconstrue what the explanations mean and extrapolate the flowery nature of void realms like this to align with the standards.
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This is reached by simply being a void. IF the void has superiority then it would be an ontological one and by default be above any extension of what it contains. You don’t need a High 1-B cosmology to prove that it transcends space and time. If that is what you are saying
This isn’t what is being argued. By its very nature,death in verse is unrestricted by everything,with everything being restricted by it,due to the simple fact that it is infinite,while everything else is not, ,and everything else is reduced to it as it is eternal and they are finite.. It isn’t just that it is a void and lacks space time. These concepts were made by the absolute being,in other words a finite creature. So the sea,something infinite is entirely not bound by said concepts as they are finite. It exists before them and it continues to exist even after them, the power of death is the very thing that can destroy it. The superiority the sea has is that
1.)it’s very nature is different and above physical composition of reality
2.)everything is bound by it
3.)since everything is bound by it , it isn’t limited by anything within it
(I am tired it is 3 am so I will be going to sleep) even more so creation and immortality are two opposite concepts . Creation is finite,immortality is infinite/eternal
Yet again it isn’t just something larger . It is entirely above it due to its very composition. Ultima points out that IF a void has superiority in the relevant sense,then that would by its very nature be an ontological one. This void in verse very clearly above all dimensional structures in verse as well as almost every character as yet again it is eternal,everything else is not. This is JUST ONE thing and not the reason as a whole.
This is literally how it works. It isn’t something like existence eraser where they are erased by a higher power, all things are simply equal in the face of death . As it is simply something infinite vs something finite.regardless of how much that finite thing was to grow , it would never reach it. Since they aren’t eternal,it is only natural that they return to the sea as their finite existence runs out,all that is left is that eternal existence.
A true void by nature has no composition of the lower reality. My argument was simply that since it is above everything due to being infinite ,it simply isn’t possible to share the same nature or be bound by anything that is finite (concepts like time and space are finite so it would not be limited by them either),which would necessitate it being above it. And since it is a void aka a conceptual non composite domain ,then it would necessitate that this superiority is an ontological one.
This is honestly just you trying to ignore blatant statements. It is very clear that this isn’t just a place where people who died go. It is something that
1.)everything is bound by
2.)unrestricted and capable of destroying everything
3.)dawrfs reality
4.)everything returns back to.
The many statements about absolute beings being bound by and never being able to go against it,it being able to destroy everything,everything being =in the face of it,and the statements about finite and eternal existences are just being ignored and correlated as it just being essentially outer space with existence eraser properties,when all these statements are showing superiority over everything.
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You are again misinterpreting the scans. Either you are purposefully doing this or you are significantly lacking in English comprehension. This is not an insult, it is an observation.
Death bounds all things because it is the natural end point of living beings.
The scans literally just say that the death of living things and can occur no matter how strong they are. And thus they are all equal when faced with it.
This is supported because even the guy who created the universe was killed:
The Absolute Being was killed by the beings he created.
Death bounds all things because it is the natural end point of living beings.
The scans literally just say that the death of living things and can occur no matter how strong they are. And thus they are all equal when faced with it.
This is supported because even the guy who created the universe was killed:
The Absolute Being was killed by the beings he created.
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Yes, but it also says
And
The dimensions were forcibly twisted, and the gates were created. But it failed to summon things through it. Maybe you could describe this as a range issue intrinsic to this one ability. Or maybe you could consider it a property of the realm the prevents things from reaching outside of it. Or maybe you could consider the weaker demons unable to enter this world of nothingness.
But this scan still blatantly demonstrates that dimensions do exist in this place. Your interpretation, of it supporting the realm being aspatial, is the exact opposite of the truth.
So yeah, there's a big anti-feat in that. And the positive evidence that I've checked out has ended up being bad:
- Being a realm of spirits/consciousness/etc. does not mean lacking dimensions. Most fictional cases of spiritual realms have analogues to size/location/etc. Hell, ghosts are usually presented as shiny transparent bodies that can move through walls.
- Your evidence for the realm being unaffected by time was incoherent; a character that can enter a realm having their mind be unaffected by a certain kind of time manip does not imply that the realm itself is unaffected by time. There is simply no logical connection there.
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It isn’t hard to connect scans. Everything including the absolute being is bound by death, so I was giving those scans in reference to everything being = in the face of death.
That just really isn’t the case. Dead things also die. The only truly immortal thing is jinwoo, as he controls death. Every other type of immortality,be it undead or anything else,is bound by death. It yet again says that even the absolute beings power doesn’t work in the face of death.
The absolute being didn’t create monarchs and rulers. I thought I already mentioned this.The scans literally just say that the death of living things and can occur no matter how strong they are. And thus they are all equal when faced with it.
This is supported because even the guy who created the universe was killed:
The Absolute Being was killed by the beings he created.
Mb. I guess I didn’t give enough context.That power is able to bring demons to him regardless of the distance,but cause it was a world of nothingness,a connection could not be made to his world . (Demons literally come from the sea so idk how it would be that they are too weak or something
Baran succeeded in creating the gates. And yes he did twist the dimensional rift, BUT that is not the rift of the world of nothingness. He summoned them to Suho,so it is not a range problem,nor does it make it an anti feat of it containing time or space
He couldn’t make a connection like he says CAUSE it is a world of nothingness. His ability to twist time and space worked OUTSIDE of the world,but not inside of it.the gates he succeeded in making ARE OUTSIDE the world
I never claimed that cause it was a realm of spirits it lacks dimensions. What comment made you think that? I said that cause it is A spiritual realm A dream,a realm of consciousness/thoughts then it doesn’t make sense for it to be physical. When the very nature is opposite of physical. So this void of nothingness due to its nature of being spiritual and NOT physical,would lack physicality. ONE of the three requirements that needs to be proven.
That also wasn’t I was saying.. a monarchs consciousness transcends time itself. It is unaffected by time. The power of god has no affect on it. So I was saying that since this world is literally a monarchs consciousness itself, the statement about being unaffected by time would apply to it. Since a monarchs consciousness is simply a void of nothingness.
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So, I said it was an anti-feat, because it said that the dimensional rift was forcibly twisted, and gates were created. Which doesn't make sense for a realm without dimensions.
Your response to that is that he did create them and twist the dimensional rift, but that those operated in different places than the world of nothingness.
This idea is blatantly contradicted by the very scan you posted; it said that dozens of magic circles were created above his head, which suggests that activity happened right next to him, and as a bonus, also gives spatial relations to things in that realm.
The scans you linked to there do not do anything to rebuke this idea.
Also, these scans are looking a little weird to me. Can you link this translation you're using?
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. You're saying that because it has dreams/consciousness/thoughts that it's non-physical. And that because it's non-physical, that it has to be non-spatial. That it has to lack dimensions.
You are making the exact link I am criticizing in this very post.
If you truly did just mean that it's non-physical, and not non-spatial, then that's fine. But that would mean that it would not be BDE, because being non-physical has absolutely nothing to do with BDE.
In context, that's just Acausality. It still relates to time and interfaces with it, it simply remembers things through leaps through time.
Irrelevant.
This is contradicted by the very scans you posted (including in this post). This world isn't a single godlike being's consciousness, it's the place where the souls of the universe wander. It's the realm of consciousness in general.
Astral_Trinity439
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I'm pretty sure I asked Antvasima before doing so just in case it was allowed or not, and as far as I remember, they said if I think I'm knowledgeable in it, it's fine to add myself.
As clarified in a post above in this same thread, if people disagree with me or think I'm not knowledgeable, sure, that is their free to have opinion, I'm not gonna argue that I'm knowledgeable or something. I simply give my opinion when asked by the OP themselves on my message walls, or if I find something I'm interested in, or if I simply want to see if my opinions align with the other non-staff or not.
If you haven't noticed, in almost all of my posts, I always mention some definition page (usually BDE or Void Manip pages) in my posts or quote lines from those pages.
Regardless, if you still consider that as me "blatantly lacking knowledge on the topic and violating rules to add myself on thar page", sure, I'm fine with my name being removed from the page. That won't stop me from giving my input when asked, however, please understand that too.
Didn't think I would get a warning for giving input as a non-staff, but eh, first experiences are always surprising!
Vietthai96
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Non-physical doesn't mean non-dimensional
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