Is this BDE2?

[PHANtomFELdway]

So, I said it was an anti-feat, because it said that the dimensional rift was forcibly twisted, and gates were created. Which doesn't make sense for a realm without dimensions.

Your response to that is that he did create them and twist the dimensional rift, but that those operated in different places than the world of nothingness.

Yeah different place. Suho was in a different world.

This idea is blatantly contradicted by the very scan you posted; it said that dozens of magic circles were created above his head, which suggests that activity happened right next to him, and as a bonus, also gives spatial relations to things in that realm.

Obviously him activating magic would cause magic circles to appear. Said magic circles are NOT gates,it is the activation of his magic. If you read the next scan it is a change of pov. Said pov explains that when he activated his magic, the dimensional rift OF the DIMENSION Suho was in,was twisted and demons spawned. This is very clearly showing that it was NOT the world of nothingness that was manipulated like you are claiming,yet again in that very same scan it tells you that the reason it doesn’t work, IS CAUSE it is a world of nothingness. The very nature of that world doesn’t allow for gates to exist. A gate is a connection between two places. This really isn’t hard to understand.

The scans you linked to there do not do anything to rebuke this idea.

The scans very clearly make the distinction between the world of nothingness,and the place Suho is at. There would literally be no problem if he could make a gate inside the world. Cause you can literally see him make one outside the world. And therefore he WOULD be able to summon the demons cause he made two gates.which very obviously isn’t the case

Also, these scans are looking a little weird to me. Can you link this translation you're using?

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. You're saying that because it has dreams/consciousness/thoughts that it's non-physical. And that because it's non-physical, that it has to be non-spatial. That it has to lack dimensions.

Pls quote me on where I said that cause it is non physical it is non spatial. I haven’t even gotten into the argument of why it lacks space yet, I just gave a brief explanation that said void exists before and after the concept of time and space.as well as said concepts having no affect on it. NOT ONCE was my argument that non physical =aspatial. I was just saying that by its very nature it would lack physicality of the lower reality that IS physical.which is yet again just ONE Of THREE things needed. I was updating it with the proof needed one by one. Non composite is one of the requirements so I was proving it.

Before ultima updated the wording,It was thought that a true void by nature already lacked space,time,and physicality,but now I was using scans to prove that it does. I was saying that since consciousness is unaffected by time,and this void IS LITERALLY someone’s consciousness itself, it would mean that peoples consciousness are void themselves that are unaffected by time. Would literally be like having Nep on the aspect of the mind. Yes this is acasualty,BUT the reason for being unaffected by time is explained by the fact that the mind itself is a void devoid of it in the first place.sure if it isn’t enough then I will simply find something else. Most of the comments are based on before ultima clarifed. During that time it fit all the standards.now all I need to do is prove that it lacks time,space and physicality. I started with physicality.

You are making the exact link I am criticizing in this very post.

If you truly did just mean that it's non-physical, and not non-spatial, then that's fine. But that would mean that it would not be BDE, because being non-physical has absolutely nothing to do with BDE.

Thought I need to prove it lacks physicality tho?

In context, that's just Acausality. It still relates to time and interfaces with it, it simply remembers things through leaps through time.

Irrelevant.

This is contradicted by the very scans you posted (including in this post). This world isn't a single godlike being's consciousness, it's the place where the souls of the universe wander. It's the realm of consciousness in general.

Each one of them have thier own world.thier own eternal rest realms,the only difference is that jinwoos eternal rest realm scales above the sea and holds it,while everyone else’s doesn’t. (if you seen my other comment that talks about it being the realm beyond death.

Basically how it works is that they each have thier own world. But their world is bound by death. So they are pulled deep into the abyss of the sea

Found this

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah different place. Suho was in a different world.

Obviously him activating magic would cause magic circles to appear. Said magic circles are NOT gates,it is the activation of his magic. If you read the next scan it is a change of pov. Said pov explains that when he activated his magic, the dimensional rift OF the DIMENSION Suho was in,was twisted and demons spawned. This is very clearly showing that it was NOT the world of nothingness that was manipulated like you are claiming,yet again in that very same scan it tells you that the reason it doesn’t work, IS CAUSE it is a world of nothingness. The very nature of that world doesn’t allow for gates to exist. A gate is a connection between two places. This really isn’t hard to understand.

There is nothing in those scans indicating a perspective change. The magic circles appearing above his head happen before the page break, and a page break is typically not a PoV change.

Again, I'd ask you to post the source of this translation, so I can read the text myself.

The things you're mentioning may be true, but they are simply not substantiated.

The scans very clearly make the distinction between the world of nothingness,and the place Suho is at. There would literally be no problem if he could make a gate inside the world. Cause you can literally see him make one outside the world. And therefore he WOULD be able to summon the demons cause he made two gates.which very obviously isn’t the case

The scans I'm talking about do not make that distinction, and the rest of this is your conjecture.

Pls quote me on where I said that cause it is non physical it is non spatial. I haven’t even gotten into the argument of why it lacks space yet, I just gave a brief explanation that said void exists before and after the concept of time and space.as well as said concepts having no affect on it. NOT ONCE was my argument that non physical =aspatial. I was just saying that by its very nature it would lack physicality of the lower reality that IS physical.which is yet again just ONE Of THREE things needed. I was updating it with the proof needed one by one. Non composite is one of the requirements so I was proving it.

Oh, so the evidence for it being BDE2 hasn't been provided yet.

If you know that, then why are you asking whether or not it's BDE2?

Before ultima updated the wording,It was thought that a true void by nature already lacked space,time,and physicality,but now I was using scans to prove that it does. I was saying that since consciousness is unaffected by time,and this void IS LITERALLY someone’s consciousness itself, it would mean that peoples consciousness are void themselves that are unaffected by time. Would literally be like having Nep on the aspect of the mind.

That scan does not say what you claim it does.

Yes this is acasualty,BUT the reason for being unaffected by time is explained by the fact that the mind itself is a void devoid of it in the first place.

No, it is not explained as being due to that. The scan you provided says nothing of the sort.

Thought I need to prove it lacks physicality tho?

No. Lacking physicality would sort of inherently come with that other stuff, so you wouldn't want any contradictions on that matter.

For a character to be able to destroy a universe, they have to be able to destroy a city. And if they were unable to destroy a city, that would be evidence against them being able to destroy a universe. But if you created a thread titled "Is this universal?" and just posted scans of characters destroying cities, well that'd be a parallel to what we have right now.

Each one of them have thier own world.thier own eternal rest realms,the only difference is that jinwoos eternal rest realm scales above the sea and holds it,while everyone else’s doesn’t. (if you seen my other comment that talks about it being the realm beyond death.

Basically how it works is that they each have thier own world. But their world is bound by death. So they are pulled deep into the abyss of the sea

Found this

May be true, but the scans don't really evidence that. Plus, this approach runs into contradictions, as some characters with these realms would have them still be affected by time, despite still holding the other general qualities you ascribe.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

There is nothing in those scans indicating a perspective change. The magic circles appearing above his head happen before the page break, and a page break is typically not a PoV change.

Once he activates his magic,it changes pov

Again, I'd ask you to post the source of this translation, so I can read the text myself.

In order to read it for free you have to go to webnovel.com chapter 238 of ragnorock.

The things you're mentioning may be true, but they are simply not substantiated.

The scans I'm talking about do not make that distinction, and the rest of this is your conjecture.

Oh, so the evidence for it being BDE2 hasn't been provided yet.

The evidence for BDE2 with previous standards weren’t really explained. All I thought you needed was to be an actual void and not an empty space, above all dimensions in the cosmology and having the universe as something nonexistent in comparison to it. Well that is most note worthy thing.tho I guess I explained it bad. By the nature of being a void,it would already lack space,time and physicality, and with other scans of the universe being nothing more than a needle in a desert , it met all the standards. Tho that was a misunderstanding clarified by ultima and that’s why I was starting to prove stuff. So that was why I made this thread. (I changed the name like 4 times)

If you know that, then why are you asking whether or not it's BDE2?

That scan does not say what you claim it does.

No, it is not explained as being due to that. The scan you provided says nothing of the sort.

I was giving a valid interpretation of why time doesn’t affect them. It is indeed a void.

No. Lacking physicality would sort of inherently come with that other stuff, so you wouldn't want any contradictions on that matter.

Alr

For a character to be able to destroy a universe, they have to be able to destroy a city. And if they were unable to destroy a city, that would be evidence against them being able to destroy a universe. But if you created a thread titled "Is this universal?" and just posted scans of characters destroying cities, well that'd be a parallel to what we have right now.

I don’t really believe this is how my thread approached this. As the reasoning for superiority is that it is eternal,everything else is not.

May be true, but the scans don't really evidence that. Plus, this approach runs into contradictions, as some characters with these realms would have them still be affected by time, despite still holding the other general qualities you ascribe.

Only higher beings are known to have these realms in the first place. So it wouldn’t be a contradiction that normal humans don’t remember stuff. Regardless I did find something problematic .time to argue R>F and jinwoo being a monad .

Would it help if this world of emptiness was a character?

 

[Agnaa]

Once he activates his magic,it changes pov

There's nothing indicating that. In fact, we see an explicit PoV change later in one of those scans, marked by * * *.

In order to read it for free you have to go to webnovel.com chapter 238 of ragnorock.

I can't find that there.

The evidence for BDE2 with previous standards weren’t really explained. All I thought you needed was to be an actual void and not an empty space, above all dimensions in the cosmology and having the universe as something nonexistent in comparison to it. Well that is most note worthy thing.tho I guess I explained it bad. By the nature of being a void,it would already lack space,time and physicality, and with other scans of the universe being nothing more than a needle in a desert , it met all the standards. Tho that was a misunderstanding clarified by ultima and that’s why I was starting to prove stuff. So that was why I made this thread. (I changed the name like 4 times)

icic

I was giving a valid interpretation of why time doesn’t affect them. It is indeed a void.

You can create that reason, but it's one invented in your head without meaningful backing from the text, and so it's not very good evidence.

Only higher beings are known to have these realms in the first place. So it wouldn’t be a contradiction that normal humans don’t remember stuff.

This does not seem to be true. You've posted scans indicating that this realm is a sea where the souls of the entire universe wander into nothingness.

Regardless I did find something problematic .time to argue R>F and jinwoo being a monad .

Have fun.

Would it help if this world of emptiness was a character?

No.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

There's nothing indicating that. In fact, we see an explicit PoV change later in one of those scans, marked by * * *.

That is the pov change in question. As you can see that when the pov changes,it shows Suho pov of what happened when the skill was activated. It shows that the dimensional rifts and the demons being summoned was based on the place Suho was at.

I can't find that there.

Weird.I see it

icic

You can create that reason, but it's one invented in your head without meaningful backing from the text, and so it's not very good evidence.

This does not seem to be true. You've posted scans indicating that this realm is a sea where the souls of the entire universe wander into nothingness.

Yes the souls of everyone goes there, cause everything dies. How is that supposed to prove that everyone has a realm,when only higher beings are stated to have one,and higher beings are the only one unaffected by time .souls and worlds monarchs rule aren’t the same.monarchs simply also have a world that is bound by death.others are simply bound by death . Even when we are shown someone dying. The only thing shown is them falling/getting pulled down it wouldn’t be assumed that everyone has thier own realm when nothing at all points to that. Monarchs are entirely different creatures who can’t even become shadows,so it doesn’t make sense to apply something stated only for them,and apply it to everyone.

When a monarch does go to thier world, they start dreaming of the world.IF something like this was accepted as R>F then I for sure would have to provide evidence that everyone has a world like this.

Have fun.

Will do. Doesn’t even have a profile yet,also not really in a rush. Will just make a low multi/multi thread whenever. Or can I list that in a profile to publish

No.

 

[Agnaa]

That is the pov change in question. As you can see that when the pov changes,it shows Suho pov of what happened when the skill was activated. It shows that the dimensional rifts and the demons being summoned was based on the place Suho was at.

The magic was activated before that. The scan you were posting earlier, where you still claimed there was a PoV change, didn't go that far.

You're just bringing up something completely irrelevant.

Weird.I see it

Hm, now I can find some, but they don't have as many chapters as you mention. Very weird.

Yes the souls of everyone goes there, cause everything dies. How is that supposed to prove that everyone has a realm,when only higher beings are stated to have one,and higher beings are the only one unaffected by time .souls and worlds monarchs rule aren’t the same.monarchs simply also have a world that is bound by death.others are simply bound by death . Even when we are shown someone dying. The only thing shown is them falling/getting pulled down it wouldn’t be assumed that everyone has thier own realm when nothing at all points to that. Monarchs are entirely different creatures who can’t even become shadows,so it doesn’t make sense to apply something stated only for them,and apply it to everyone.

At the very least, it doesn't make much sense for one of these worlds and a monarch's consciousness to be one and the same, if everyone's souls go there. Especially if there's multiple of these beings, with each person's soul presumably only able to go to one of these.

 

[Dooyo]

So ? Is it accepted or rejected ? Or still in debate ?

 

[Teach1121]

So ? Is it accepted or rejected ? Or still in debate ?

I think it's over and didn't get accepted till further notice sounds like he's gonna go over the r>f route or monad route next or just wait till more chapters drop

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

The magic was activated before that. The scan you were posting earlier, where you still claimed there was a PoV change, didn't go that far.

Yes the magic activated before the pov switch. But when pov switched,it went back to the very moment baran woke up. These events were happening simultaneously. The moment the skill was activated,you can clearly see the statement that says that the demons coming was cause of being summoned,was the moment the skill was used, proving yet again that the moment that the skill to twist the dimensional rift,and the moment the dimensional rift was twisted and demons were spawned,were happening simultaneously. Which the scan itself tells you he succeeded in doing. It was not part of the world of nothingness.

I also
found a statement saying that things cannot be summoned and no external power can be drawn in that world,idk if that helps. Just anything that comes from somewhere outside the world.even something like inventory,a subspace which is always with you,couldn’t be accessed.

You're just bringing up something completely irrelevant.

Hm, now I can find some, but they don't have as many chapters as you mention. Very weird.

Idk. The one I see has like 316 chapters

At the very least, it doesn't make much sense for one of these worlds and a monarch's consciousness to be one and the same, if everyone's souls go there. Especially if there's multiple of these beings, with each person's soul presumably only able to go to one of these.

I think you are misunderstanding something. The sea of death is NOT other monarchs worlds. There aren’t multiple of those. It is jinwoos world which encompasses all other worlds. Every monarch has a world of nothingness tho.

It goes like this.

Monarchs eternal rest realms: worlds of nothingness/emptiness/blankness/nonexistence. . A pure white world with nothing in it , a dream that is also reduced to nothingness.<

Sea of death: is a world of nothingness,the deepest reaches of darkness. swallows up this world of emptiness/nothingness/nonexistence ,and brings it/reduces it to a deeper state of nothingness (before you say anything about the scan not saying that it is deeper nonexistent ,monarchs worlds of nothingness,and they themselves are nothingness,still become the same nature as the sea.which logically means they are different states of nothingness). The longer you are there ,the deeper you fall,

and the deeper you fall,the more potent death becomes (which in context means nothingness as the sea is nothingnes ) falling infinitely into the abyss ,until you eventually become one with it as you melt into it losing everything, your identity/self becoming the same nature as the sea (nonexistent)

shadow monarchs powers: allows you to pull those reduced to nothingness up from the sea and turn them into soldiers.restoring thier identity/self bringing them back.

There was a scan that says they are free from life,death,and suffering,but I can’t find it, tho this is what jinwoo can control anyway

TRUE ETERNAL REST/THE WORLD OF SHADOWS .JINWOOS WORLD:

It is the world beyond death.A world of nothingness beyond the sea of nothingness.


The sea of death is a world in eternal rest. Eternal rest/the shadow world contains the whole world in it

The sea of death is the abyss itself, yet the abyss is inside the shadow .
https://imgur.com/a/l9Mektg

For a few extra points since this is taking me so long.


Jinwoo rules over the sea. Yet his powers are the power to rule over death. This should be a little bit of proof that the sea=death (ignoring the fact about death getting stronger). (Even more so the absolute being can never resist death,yet the sea is where he returned.)

Ashborn created his armor out of the sea of death itself. Yet his armor is stated to be the power of death.


If I am missing any scans then let me know.

 

[Teach1121]

Yes the magic activated before the pov switch. But when pov switched,it went back to the very moment baran woke up. These events were happening simultaneously. The moment the skill was activated,you can clearly see the statement that says that the demons coming was cause of being summoned,was the moment the skill was used, proving yet again that the moment that the skill to twist the dimensional rift,and the moment the dimensional rift was twisted and demons were spawned,were happening simultaneously. Which the scan itself tells you he succeeded in doing. It was not part of the world of nothingness.

I also
found a statement saying that things cannot be summoned and no external power can be drawn in that world,idk if that helps. Just anything that comes from somewhere outside the world.even something like inventory,a subspace which is always with you,couldn’t be accessed.


Idk. The one I see has like 316 chapters

I think you are misunderstanding something. The sea of death is NOT other monarchs worlds. There aren’t multiple of those. It is jinwoos world which encompasses all other worlds. Every monarch has a world of nothingness tho.

It goes like this.

Monarchs eternal rest realms: worlds of nothingness/emptiness/blankness/nonexistence. . A pure white world with nothing in it , a dream that is also reduced to nothingness.<

Sea of death: is a world of nothingness,the deepest reaches of darkness. swallows up this world of emptiness/nothingness/nonexistence ,and brings it/reduces it to a deeper state of nothingness (before you say anything about the scan not saying that it is deeper nonexistent ,monarchs worlds of nothingness,and they themselves are nothingness,still become the same nature as the sea.which logically means they are different states of nothingness). The longer you are there ,the deeper you fall,

and the deeper you fall,the more potent death becomes (which in context means nothingness as the sea is nothingnes ) falling infinitely into the abyss ,until you eventually become one with it as you melt into it losing everything, your identity/self becoming the same nature as the sea (nonexistent)

shadow monarchs powers: allows you to pull those reduced to nothingness up from the sea and turn them into soldiers.restoring thier identity/self bringing them back.

There was a scan that says they are free from life,death,and suffering,but I can’t find it, tho this is what jinwoo can control anyway

TRUE ETERNAL REST/THE WORLD OF SHADOWS .JINWOOS WORLD:

It is the world beyond death.A world of nothingness beyond the sea of nothingness.


The sea of death is a world in eternal rest. Eternal rest/the shadow world contains the whole world in it

The sea of death is the abyss itself, yet the abyss is inside the shadow .


For a few extra points since this is taking me so long.


Jinwoo rules over the sea. Yet his powers are the power to rule over death. This should be a little bit of proof that the sea=death (ignoring the fact about death getting stronger). (Even more so the absolute being can never resist death,yet the sea is where he returned.)

Ashborn created his armor out of the sea of death itself. Yet his armor is stated to be the power of death.


If I am missing any scans then let me know.

Theirs 318 for ragnorack and 270 for the original