I probs have to add a few things to not confuse others.
Transcending infinite holes with no end
We can see in the Marie’s route, Ren and Reinhard Taikyoku is only At 80 while mercurius is 90 and yet Ren and Reinhard keep open/transcends endless holes of the singularity with no end to their doing rather than stopped at the 80th level of the singularity.
For a example; a Hadou God with 10 Taikyoku always transcends these infinite holes endless at the 11 Taikyoku God’s singularity and only transcends the singularity when reached 11 Taikyoku.
Not really? The issue is even weaker gods can reach the throne and create a singularity like Yato to Hajun's. Merc likely stopped the two and likely lied as he didn't want them to take the throne. The depth of the singularity no matter the expansion won't affect how a god travels through it just length (Mukei Yakou traversed the singularity of Hajun after all) but Hadous have to contend with the Godhead so that's their issue while Gudous don't.
There isn't a transcendence of that kind just it will overpower the weaker one. Hell Hajun's hole is technically just a very long hole (Mukei Yakou even said Merc's hole is equivalent to just holding your breath underwater for a time).
Tldr I think one can just say expansions don't matter for a god.
- Tenma Awaumi's hands were likely outside of Yato's territory and those hands were the souls of the orphans and the narration even said this when they beat the obstacles and hands:
俺たちは、ついに境界である淡海を抜けたのだった。
We, at last passed through the boundary of Awaumi.
So it shows they were at a boundary with Awaumi being at the edge of Shinshu. Then Yakou nuke. No one but Ryuumei could have won (even then it would be a severe net lost if she did)
- Nadare now. She is a psuedo as while she is a walking universe, she isn't a traditional one as the universe they are in doesn't allow Gudous (it isn't simply Nadare's existence blocking it. It's how the universe is fashioned with the lack of free will)
求道神が生まれる宇宙構造
求道神の誕生は一つの宇宙を奪い合う覇道神とは違い、別の宇宙がもう一つ増える所業に等しい。しかし座の世界は本来単一の構造、つまり多元的並行世界が存在していなかった。そのため求道神の存在が許されるのは並行宇宙を擁するようになった第四神座以降。
例え第三神座以前に求道神になれるだけの渇望を有していても、
システム的にその位階まで到達することは不可能であった。
異なる世界が無数にあることが許されるほどの自由度の高い法則下であるからこそ、極小規模の異界として求道神も生まれ得る。
つまり順序としては覇道の後に求道が来るわけだがこれは優劣や強弱の話ではなく単に得手不得手の特性的な問題で、舞台を用意するのは覇者の領分というだけのこと。
Atwiki gives the Tldr
Gudous can only be born with other universes added to the mix but well...with both lack of freedom of choice and freewill, the structure of the universe was singular (bolded words even states due to this system reaching gudou god rank is
impossible) making only pseudos possible by god's authority and even then likely not the full thing. So no, Nadare getting yeeted by Bahlavan doesn't contradict anything and just shows Nadare wasn't as strong as the other gudous (as she's rank 6 even in the scaling due to being a demon lord while a Gudou is a rank 7)
Pseudo Gudou
「君は求道の神というのを知ってるかい? 覇道みたいに外へ広がる意志じゃなく、内に 収束していく個の極致だ」
「周りをどうしたいかではなく、自分がどう在りたいかを願う形か」
「その通り。これを突き詰めていけば、人間大に凝縮した独立宇宙になると私は見ている。 知ってる範囲じゃバフラヴァーンがとても近いが、残念なことにあと一歩で届かない。力不足なせいじゃなく、単にシステム的な問題でね」
「貴様がいるからか?」
問いに答えたのは微笑だった。優越感からくるものではなく、恥じ入るような自嘲の類。
「ナダレは真我(カミ)の触覚だ。善悪闘争を回す管理者として、斯く在るべしという大義式戒律を刻まれる。つまりこの宇宙で唯一許された疑似的な求道神だよ。......まあ、私はそこに自前の誓いを足してるが、実情的には先代たちとそう変わらない。本当の魔王になりたいと思っているだけだから」
ゆえにどれほど適性がある者でも、この宇宙では真正の個を極められない。あくまでも真我の影(ナダレ)という形でしかそれを許容する枠がなく、舞台の仕組みを変えるのは覇道の領分なので求道の者は報われぬ定めだ。
「仮にバフラヴァーンが私を倒せば、彼が次のナダレになってただろう。常々申し訳ない と思ってたし、そんな風に詰んでたあいつを君は楽にしてやったわけだけど、本当に救いとなったかは現状不明だ。なぜなら君はその剣で、舞台を変え得るクワルナフたちも残らず殺してしまったからね」
ナダレの異常な頑強さは、疑似的ながらも神の領域にあるためだ。本人は謙遜していたものの、二重に掛けられた戒律が歴代の誰よりも求道の極致に彼女を近づけている。
魔王たれ。真の救世主に倒されて世界を変える、最大最後の壁になりたい。
魂懸けてそう祈るからこそ、マグサリオンの不変がどこを向いているのか知らなけれ ばいけなかった。内か外か、求道か覇道か前者なら断固として負けるわけにはいかず、 後者なら喜んで討たれよう。だがクワルナフが魔道と評した通り、凶戦士の在り方はどちらとも違って見える。
ここに至るまでの情報を顧みて、ナダレは一つの仮説を立てた。
「まさか、君の不変は“罪”なのか?」
問いにマグサリオンは無言のまま。しかし否定の気配はなく、外していないと直観する。
「この世は全部間違っている。だから気付かず真我(アヴェスター)に踊る奴らも、気付いているのに変えられない奴らも、等しく罪人だと言いたいのか。君はそうした過ちを呑(の)み込んで、内に罪を体現しながら罰の法則を生むような、求道と覇道を足したような......」
だとしたら、それはまさしく冥府魔道。自ら地獄の権化となる道だった。
"Do you know what is a Gudou God? It isn't an outward will that spreads like Hadou, but an inward convergence of an individual as the ultimate."
"It's not about what you want the world to be, but what form you wish to be for yourself."
"That's right. If you pursue this, I can see you becoming a human condensed as an independent universe. As far as I know Bahlavan was very close, too bad he was one step short. It isn't because of a lack of power, simply its a system problem."
"Is it because of you"
She answered with a smile. Not one of superiority, but one of shame and self-mockery.
"Nadare is the sensory of Shinga (God). As the administrator that circulates good and evil, thus I am engraved with a great commandment. In other words, I am the only allowed pseudo-gudou god. ...Well, I added my own oath to that, but in reality it's not so different from my predecessors. I want to be a true demon king."
Therefore no matter how much aptitude you have, an authentic individual cannot be mastered. The only way for this to be allowed is in the form of Shinga's Shadow (Nadare), to change the structure of the stage is the domain of the Hadou, those of Gudou would go unrewarded.
"For example if Bahlavan defeated me, he would just be the next Nadare. I've always felt sorry for him, and you made it fun for someone who was stuck like that but, I don't know if you really saved him. That's because your sword, killed Khvarenah and the others who could have changed the stage."
Nadare's unusual strength, is she is in the realm of the gods in a psuedo way. Despite her humility, her double commandments brought her closer to the Gudou's ultimate than any of her predecessors.
She is a demon lord. Wanting to be defeated by savior who will change the world, becoming the greatest and final wall.
Praying with all her soul, she had to know where Magsarion's immutability would turned. Inside or outside, Gudou or Hadou if its the former then she won't be defeated, if its the latter she would be hapilly defeated. But Madou as commented by Khvarenah, the wicked warrior is a different way from either of them.
This result after reviewing the information, Nadare came to one conclusion.
"No way, you immutability is "Sin"?"
Magsarion remained silent, But there are no signs of denial, her intuition was no mistaken.
"Everything in this world is wrong. Therefore you dance to the tune of Shinga (Avesta) without noticing it, and those who notice it but cannot change it, are all equally guilty. You swallow such faults in, while embodying the sins and giving birth to their laws of punishment, a combination of Gudou and Hadou..."
If so, then it truly is Meifu Madou. It is a path that is the very incarnation of hell.
- Mags fighting Mithra was after beating Nadare and he did grow into a higher level.
宇宙を塗り替える覇道の流出。神の代替わりによって成される新世界。光輪の神子と戦うことで、マグサリオンはその仕組みを把握した。義者(アシャワン)・不義者(ドルグワント)の思考を統べる真我(アヴェスター)は、単なる本能などではない。神座という頂点に君臨し、万象を己の色に染め上げる生命体なのだと理解する。
一種のパラダイムシフトであった。生物ならば殺せるという認識が、マグサリオンを更なる領域へと押し上げる。
けれどまだ、冥府魔道の完成ではない。少なくともこの時点において、もっとも解明したいワルフラーンの謎については影すら踏めずにいたのである。
The outflow of Hadou repaints the universe. By replacing god a new world was possible. By fighting the divine child of Halo (Khva), Magsarion understood the structure. The thoughts that govern the true selves (Avesta) of the righteous ones (Ashvan) and the unrighteous ones (Dragvant), are not mere instinct. Reigning at the summit of the throne, he understood it was a life form that finished dyeing all of creation in their color.
A kind of Paradigm shift. At the realization that these living beings can be killed, pushed Magsarion up into a greater/higher territory/domain (更なる can mean greater/higher, while 領域 can mean territory or domain).
But still, Meifu Madou was incomplete. At least at this point, he wasn't able to step into the shadow regarding the one he wanted to understand, Vahram's mystery.
- A little useless but to Coston, saying Shinza is low 1-C is a little wack when PL already had higher dimensions.
Not at all, they exist
in creation by using sensories, which are essentially their avatar, their
true form exist in the throne. 1-A people(gods) weight will crush the
whole creation, which is what the throne is for, to stop their weight from destroying everything.
At least tell which part it was. Can't really expect him to find it if he's not that familiar with the language.
At wiki
覇道神の巨大な質量に、世界は耐えることができないため空間もろともただ在るだけで破けてしまう。薄い和紙で山を支えるようなもの。そのため覇道神には超越者が腰掛けるべく存在する『座』と呼ぶべきものが必要となる。座を手に入れ、そこで流出が行われた時こそ、宇宙は完全に塗り潰され、新世界と新たなる神が誕生する。
K3 game
会えないならば討てはしない。戦う、話す、もっての他だ。実体のないものを破壊することができないように、せめて同じ空間に辿り着かねば打つ手も何もないのだから。
波旬──そう呼ばれる今代の神が、いったい何処に存在するのか。
少なくとも西や東、神州には隠れていない。ならば諸外国かと考察すれば、それもまた恐らく違うだろう。
天元突破を果たしたものが、人の領域に易々住まうはずがない。あの夜刀よりも巨大な質量を有しているというのなら、この世界では耐えられぬ。空間もろともただ在るだけで破けてしまう。
薄い和紙で山を支えるようなものだ。地には住めぬ、脆すぎる。ゆえに当然、その身が在るのは──
v_yku1361
「この世に在らず、この世を統べる……そういう場所か」
つまり、一種の空白地帯だ。
波旬の色に染まった天は、神の重みに耐えられない。超越者が腰掛けるべく存在する『座』と呼ぶべきものが必要である。
理の悉くを洗い流し、無色透明な空へと至れば必ずその底まで辿り着けよう。
Atwiki
The massive mass of a Hadou God, the world cannot withstand it and space would break by them just existing. It's like trying to support a mountain with a thin Japanese paper. Hence the existence of what they call the "throne" is necessary for the Hadou Gods that are transcendents to sit on. When the throne is obtained, and the outflow takes place, the universe will be completed repainted, and a new world and new god will be born.
K3 game
If you cannot meet them you cannot defeat them. Fighting, talking, and so on. Just as you cannot destroy something without substance, if you cannot reach the same space then there is nothing you can do.
Hajun---the one we call as the god of the present age, where do you exist in?
At least he isn't hidden at the west, east or Shinshu. If so then considering other countries, that is probably not the case.
The one who broke through the heavens, you wouldn't be able to live in the realm of humans. He has a mass greater than that of Yato, this world cannot endure it. The space would be destroyed by simply existing. It's like trying to support a mountain with a thin Japanese paper. He cannot dwell on the land, it's too fragile. Therefore of course, his body exists--
"A place not of this world, that governs this world...is it that place?"
In other words, a kind of blank zone.
Hajun's color dyed the heavens, cannot bear god's weight. The existence of what they call the "throne" is necessary for the transcendents to sit on.
Washing away the entirety of reason, to get to that colorless and transparent space is necessary to reach that bottom.
Tldr throne is needed otherwise nothing works.
I'll throw a very free bone here...Vahram's story book analogy
規格の違う才能と、”零”に通じる異端の視点を持って生まれた。なるほどアフラマズダが評した通り、生きている階層がそもそも違う。ワルフラーンにとっては、世界が物語と変わらぬものに見えたはずだ。
まるで本でも読んでいるような気分。目の前にある笑顔も、涙も、活字や挿絵と変わらない。それは紛れもなく一方的に優越した、超越者の立場だろう。
しかし考えてみるがいい、断絶した関係なのはお互い様だ。読者が物語の登場人物にどうしたって芯から寄り添えないのと同じく、登場人物(みんな)も読者(ワルフラーン)には寄り添えない。
そこには狂おしい孤独がある。たとえどれだけ”みんな”を愛し、彼らと共に生きたいと願ったところで叶(かな)わない。同じ温度の夢を見ることが不可能で、突き詰めれば分からな いし分かってもらえない。
だからワルフラーンは自らの才を恥じた。一人だけ卑怯(ひきょう)な反則をしているみたいで、公平に生きるための戒律を組み上げた。
勝者の特権ーー負かした相手から、もっとも大事な武器を奪う。単純な強さだったり、能力だったり、情だったりと様々だが、真相は今まで思われていた強化狙いの所業に非ず。
むしろ逆で、己の純性を損なわせるのが目的だった。有り体に、弱くなりたかったのだと表現していい。
わざわざ他者の力を奪わなくても、ワルフラーンは最初から強い。単に勝手気ままな生を望むなら、素のままで好きなようにできたはずだ。
けれどそれでは満たされない。どんな偉業を成し讃(たた)えられても、しょせんは物語の中の出来事。自分の現実と交わらぬ以上、虚しい思いが募るだけ。
ゆえに奪った。堕ちたくて、“みんな”と一緒に泣いて笑える資格を得たくて、“こちら側”の属性をこれでもかと装飾した。そうすることで、俺はおまえたちの仲間なんだと主張していたに違いない。もっとも優れた者が仕切るというルールに倣ったのも、要するにそのためだ。
「あれこれと試したようだが、結局望んだ場所には行けなかった。試みの方向性が違うと、兄者も気付いていたんだろう」
鍔迫(つばぜ)り合いの状態で、マグサリオンは皮肉げな笑みを浮かべた。そこには嘲罵と、微かな憐憫(れんびん)が窺(うかが)える。
強すぎて弱くなりたかった男。物語の中に入りたいと願いながら、あまりにも隔絶した視点の差に阻まれた勇者はどうするべきか。残る手段は一つしかない。
「あんたは”零”を知り、答えを得た。自ら下に降りられないなら、逆に引っ張り上げれ ばいい。そのためのアイオーンだ」
“みんな”を自分の側に生まれ変わらせる召喚(コンバート)。物語の喩えに倣うなら、絵本の登場人物 たちを現実に持ってくる選択だ。これも孤独の払拭には違いなく、”零”と戦う万神軍(パンテオン)を動 かせば己の才と属性をワルフラーンはもう恥じなくていい。手足を動かすのと変わらぬ次元で、誰より優れている彼はできることをやればいいのだ。
Being born with a different standard, a heretical point of view to communicate with "zero". As Ahuza Mazda described, he lived in a different hierarchy. For Vahram, the world looked like a story.
It was like reading a book. In his eyes the smiles, the tears, were no different from print and illustrations. That is without a doubt a one sided superior, transcedent position.
But think of it this way, the disconnected relationship was mutual. Just as the readers cannot get close to the story's characters, the story characters (everyone) cannot get close to the reader (Vahram).
That is a maddening loneliness. Even if he loved "everyone", and wanted to live with them, that wish will never come true. Just as it is impossible to dream of the same temperature (?), ultimately he couldn't understand or be understood.
Therefore Vahram was ashamed of his talent, he was the only one with an unfair (cowardly) foul, so he composed of a commandment to live fairly. (Not super sure on the wording but i guess its basically he has an unfair advantage)
Privilege of the winner---from the opponents he defeated, to take away their most important weapon. It can be simple strength, abilities or even emotions, in truth is that this isn't an act of enhancement as it has been thought until now.
Rather its the opposite, the purpose was to undermine his own purity. In truth, he wanted to become weak.
Especially even without taking other's strength, Vahram was strong from the start. If he simply wanted to live based on his desires, he could have done whatever he wanted.
But that wouldn't satisfy him. No matter how much his exploits were glorified, they came from inside the story. As long as they don't intersect with his reality, it will only make him feel empty.
Therefore he took. To fall, he wanted to get the qualification to cry and laugh with "everyone", to ornament himself with attributes of "this side." By doing so, he can claim to be one of their companions with no difference. To put it simply, he also followed the rules of the most superior one.
"I did everything, but in the end I didn't get to where I wanted. I experimented this and that, I'm sure you're aware of that."
In the face of tension, Magsarion showed a sarcastic smile. There was mockery, yet a hint of pity.
A man who was too strong and wanted to be weak. Who wished to be in the story, but was separated but different point of view what should the hero do? There was only one means left.
"You know about "zero", and have your answer. If you cannot go down yourself, then you can pull them up. That is what Aeon is for."
To summon (convert) "everyone" and be reborn to his side. To follow the story metaphor, its the choice to bring the character's of the picture to reality. This too is another way to wash away his loneliness, by mobilizing Pantheon to fight "zero" Vahram is no longer ashamed of his talent and attribute. On the same level as moving one's limbs, he is superior to anyone and he does what he needs to do.
Notes:
次元 doesn't always mean dimension as it can mean "Level, Point of reference" too and dimension doesn't make sense in that context.
This runs parallel with the painting analogy especially since zero is the basis for Hadou's paint over reality.
Tldr I'm tired
