Deltarune and Undertale cosmology + the player

Ti58 · Oct 23, 2024

Okay, so I recently made a thing
Here are the conclusions I reached:

Undertale and Deltarune are a part of one verse (although they are different multiverses)
Due to Reality-Fiction transcendence, the Undertale/Deltarune player scales above the UTDR verse via being real. Said verse contains some 2-B characters. Dunno what does that scale to, 2-A? I'm still fairly new (update: 1-A)

TheShape03 · Oct 23, 2024

Ti58 said:
Due to Reality-Fiction transcedence, the Undertale/Deltarune player scales above the UTDR verse via being real. Said verse contains some 2-B characters. Dunno what does that scale to, 2-A?

1-A

Psychomaster35 · Oct 24, 2024

I'm no expert on tier 1, but IIRC this breaks the new R>FT rules due to how Chara interacts with the Player at the end of Undertale's genocide route (The Player was once upgraded to Low 1-C before being downgraded)

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Psychomaster35 said:
I'm no expert on tier 1, but IIRC this breaks the new R>FT rules due to how Chara interacts with the Player at the end of Undertale's genocide route (The Player was once upgraded to Low 1-C before being downgraded)

Not really, Chara isn't as powerful as the player. Chara to them is ultimately just a bunch of pixels on the screen for the player.

While they do manage to take the soul and player control, they don't take the player's literal actual soul, it only affects Frisk's wellbeing in the end.

Like Chara is only stronger than the player within the confines of Undertale.

Also Chara is metatextually a representation of the player's desires during genocide.

AThe1412 · Oct 24, 2024

The Player here refers to the entity in the game, not you as a player.

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

AThe1412 said:
The Player here refers to the entity in the game, not you as a player.

they're the same though

AThe1412 · Oct 24, 2024

Ti58 said:
they're the same though

They're not.

Robo432343 · Oct 24, 2024

um

Undertale Player Low 1-C Downgrade

Arrrright, so I'll make this as clear as possible on why Low 1-C Player is definitely wrong. Seeing as data is not Low 1-C The first thing is that the Undertale verse is seen as datas from the Player as implied from the Dirty Hacker ending. Seeing as data is not worth for a Higher-Dimensional...

vsbattles.com

Player's R>F thing was addressed here

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

AThe1412 said:
They're not.

What?

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Robo432343 said:
um

Undertale Player Low 1-C Downgrade

Arrrright, so I'll make this as clear as possible on why Low 1-C Player is definitely wrong. Seeing as data is not Low 1-C The first thing is that the Undertale verse is seen as datas from the Player as implied from the Dirty Hacker ending. Seeing as data is not worth for a Higher-Dimensional...

vsbattles.com

Player's R>F thing was addressed here

The Undertale verse is seen as fiction from the player. This is mentioned in my blog.
I adressed the Chara thing above.

Blackcurrant91 · Oct 24, 2024

I find the "references to Undertale" fairly unconvincing, they seem more like nods to Undertale then anything else, not to say that they aren't connected in the cosmology but I would prefer a more direct reference. Gaster existing (or not existing) in both seems like a better way to prove it.

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Blackcurrant91 said:
I find the "references to Undertale" fairly unconvincing, they seem more like nods to Undertale then anything else, not to say that they aren't connected in the cosmology but I would prefer a more direct reference. Gaster existing (or not existing) in both seems like a better way to prove it.

Yeah, that was also used as an argument. Clam Girl Goner mentioning Susie Deltarune in Undertale too.

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Blackcurrant91 said:
I find the "references to Undertale" fairly unconvincing, they seem more like nods to Undertale then anything else, not to say that they aren't connected in the cosmology but I would prefer a more direct reference. Gaster existing (or not existing) in both seems like a better way to prove it.

Also to be fair if you don't count them as proof of that then thty still are evidence that the player transcends fiction and the cosmology of Undertale and Deltarune

Robo432343 · Oct 24, 2024

Ti58 said:
The Undertale verse is seen as fiction from the player. This is mentioned in my blog.
I adressed the Chara thing above.

this has been debunked by the downgrade thread i just linked

TheOrangeGuy09 · Oct 24, 2024

Psychomaster35 said:
I'm no expert on tier 1, but IIRC this breaks the new R>FT rules due to how Chara interacts with the Player at the end of Undertale's genocide route

Tbf they can only actually interact with Player only with Player’s permission. If we refuse to give our soul, they will just be like “fine” and wait for another 10 minutes.

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Robo432343 said:
this has been debunked by the downgrade thread i just linked

Not really

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Robo432343 said:
this has been debunked by the downgrade thread i just linked

Arrrright, so I'll make this as clear as possible on why Low 1-C Player is definitely wrong.

Seeing as data is not Low 1-C

this is true, but doesn't change the fact that the player sees the world as a game

The first thing is that the Undertale verse is seen as datas from the Player as implied from the Dirty Hacker ending. Seeing as data is not worth for a Higher-Dimensional gap given that datas exist as just electrons, and these two profiles are not 11-A just because they're made of datas.

but seeing something as a game that you can play, download etc. and existing beyond the confines of it and being a higher-dimensional being is

This character also sees the cosmology as a game and they're still 2-C as well. So the reason for Low 1-C is already non-existent as is just a higher degree of 2-B and nothing else.

Then the scalling for said character is wrong as they also have Reality-Fiction transcendence and should be like 1-A. And that Stellaris thing is already the most powerful being in the verse.

Scaling issues

Chara absolutely does scale to the Player as they could reach them and take their Soul. Counting how much of a deal the power of the Soul is, this basically implies that Chara has a comparable status with the Player. Low 1-C Player implies Low 1-C Chara, aka that Chara can transcend themselves, which is nonsense.

adressed above in the thread we're currently in

Monsters_fight · Oct 24, 2024

Ti58 · Oct 24, 2024

Monsters_fight said:
Bump

wdym

Fezzih_007 · Oct 24, 2024

Ti58 said:
wdym

If a thread lacks input from the community, you can type “Bump” (short for “Bring Up My Post”) to try and give it more attention.

He saying Bump so this thread gets more atention.

Ti58 · Oct 25, 2024

Fezzih_007 said:
If a thread lacks input from the community, you can type “Bump” (short for “Bring Up My Post”) to try and give it more attention.

He saying Bump so this thread gets more atention.

oh okay

Ti58 · Oct 26, 2024

StrymULTRA · Oct 27, 2024

Someone made me notice this while I am defending the MHS+ stuff and... no.

There are many things that are against 1-A Player, really, those being:

1) The lack of feats beyond "it sees the verse as fiction", as 1-A would require some superiority over the realm outside of "lol I see that as a game!", because Ultima himself said this:

Before writing this summary, I took the time to do some digging and found that some characters are currently accepted as holding a Reality-Fiction Transcendence over a reality due to some pieces of evidence that are rather underwhelming. The se profiles, for instance, treat purely visual depictions of characters viewing reality as TV channels, or a film, as gameboards, as evidence of R>F.

As I've said before, I more or less completely reject the usage of such things as primary evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence. Those would be relegated to being supplementary evidence, at best, but alone would never suffice. And as has already been said, I likewise have very little sympathy for gag feats and the like.

2) The Player is potrayed as being comparable in power to Chara. On the profile the reason why these characters are all 2-B is right because of the Player.

In fact, Frisk:
Multiverse level with Peak Determination (Should be the same as Chara in their Absolute, due to them having reached this level of power thanks to the Player's Determination,[8] and Frisk also using the Determination of said entity [6][note 1])

Chara:
Multiverse level (Destroyed the entire game and its cosmology, and recreated it [5]. As Sans says in his Genocide fight, with every RESET a new timeline is created, with Flowey alone having RESET and LOADED so much that he has done everything the Underground had to offer, seeing 'every line of dialogue, every set of numbers'[7], etc. Due to the nature of the RESETS, there is canonically no cap on how many RESETS could be done, and thus the game can hold any amount of timelines that are generated from the RESETS, even if countless of them are made through constantly resetting over and over[note 1])

Player:
Multiverse level (Presumably able to do a TRUE RESET, and with the entity's Determination, Chara was able to reach the absolute. Implied to being the one manipulating the Deltarune world as well, with it containing 3 timelines, as the Player is able to copy/overwrite or also delete said timelines one per time)

See the pattern? Frisk and Chara get their peak power right because they use the Player's DT to reach said level, as their DT is literally shared,

Not to mention that Asriel is so strong compared to peak Frisk that he cannot be damaged by them (and currently on the profile is accepted that Asriel is stronger), and we all know that Asriel got that power right because of absorbing a bunch of 8-B SOULs, which is completely against 1-A:

a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

[...]

The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power

See the issue, right? There's literally nothing hinting that Chara/Frisk only take a fraction of the Player's DT (especially when The Player is kinda powerless when Chara takes over), and their DT is literally matched from Asriel as well, who reached that level through stacking a lot of non 1-A SOULs.

TLDR: 1-A is completely bunk, has 0 feats and has just an anti-feat (or two if you count the Chara thing). Leave the verse at 2-B, thank you.

Ti58 · Oct 27, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
Someone made me notice this while I am defending the MHS+ stuff and... no.

There are many things that are against 1-A Player, really, those being:

1) The lack of feats beyond "it sees the verse as fiction", as 1-A would require some superiority over the realm outside of "lol I see that as a game!", because Ultima himself said this:

I feel like this counts:

Alvin says "Let the Angel's power light your way". This is similar to us having a light inside our soul as well, which is mentioned A LOT. "Don't Forget" lyrics, many SAVE points, it's mentions by Spamton. The mentions of power and light are similar to the red buster/dual heal dialogue, where the narrator says "Your SOUL shined its power on Susie/Ralsei!". It's even more similar to dialogue from the first save point. It says "A power shines within you, breaking through the darkness." That is literally our power lighting our way, very similar to Alvin's dialogue.

In Chapter 2 Castle Town is named after our name we select at the beginning of the game. The castle is also full of Angel symbolism. Lots of wings on the doors, wings on the castle itself too. Other castles in the game are also themed around their rulers.
The Angel Noelle and Dess made has no facial features and the narrator notes that this is unsettling. Similar to the Goner Vessel we made.
We are one level above all the lightners. We are the only truly real character in the game.
Lightners are also one level above all darkners and also lightners are like Gods to darkners according to Seam (yeah so lightners are basically 1-A to darkners when a dark world is not present)
There's a door in Castle Town with a heart drawn on it, surrounded by 3 pair of wings.

Like I feel that lightners worshiping the player qualifies.

StrymULTRA said:
Before writing this summary, I took the time to do some digging and found that some characters are currently accepted as holding a Reality-Fiction Transcendence over a reality due to some pieces of evidence that are rather underwhelming. The se profiles, for instance, treat purely visual depictions of characters viewing reality as TV channels, or a film, as gameboards, as evidence of R>F.

As I've said before, I more or less completely reject the usage of such things as primary evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence. Those would be relegated to being supplementary evidence, at best, but alone would never suffice. And as has already been said, I likewise have very little sympathy for gag feats and the like.

StrymULTRA said:
2) The Player is potrayed as being comparable in power to Chara.

Not really, Chara isn't as powerful as the player. Chara to them is ultimately just a bunch of pixels on the screen for the player.

While they do manage to take the soul and player control, they don't take the player's literal actual soul, it only affects Frisk's wellbeing in the end.

Like Chara is only stronger than the player within the confines of Undertale (kind of similar to how darkners can be stronger than Kris/Susie/Noelle in the dark world despite being far less powerful in the light world due to being items).

Also tbf they can only actually interact with Player only with Player’s permission. If we refuse to give our soul, they will just be like “fine” and wait for another 10 minutes.

StrymULTRA said:
On the profile the reason why these characters are all 2-B is right because of the Player.

In fact, Frisk:
Multiverse level with Peak Determination (Should be the same as Chara in their Absolute, due to them having reached this level of power thanks to the Player's Determination,[8] and Frisk also using the Determination of said entity [6][note 1])

Chara:
Multiverse level (Destroyed the entire game and its cosmology, and recreated it [5]. As Sans says in his Genocide fight, with every RESET a new timeline is created, with Flowey alone having RESET and LOADED so much that he has done everything the Underground had to offer, seeing 'every line of dialogue, every set of numbers'[7], etc. Due to the nature of the RESETS, there is canonically no cap on how many RESETS could be done, and thus the game can hold any amount of timelines that are generated from the RESETS, even if countless of them are made through constantly resetting over and over[note 1])

Player:
Multiverse level (Presumably able to do a TRUE RESET, and with the entity's Determination, Chara was able to reach the absolute. Implied to being the one manipulating the Deltarune world as well, with it containing 3 timelines, as the Player is able to copy/overwrite or also delete said timelines one per time)

See the pattern? Frisk and Chara get their peak power right because they use the Player's DT to reach said level, as their DT is literally shared,

Not to mention that Asriel is so strong compared to peak Frisk that he cannot be damaged by them (and currently on the profile is accepted that Asriel is stronger), and we all know that Asriel got that power right because of absorbing a bunch of 8-B SOULs, which is completely against 1-A:

a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

[...]

The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power

Well Chara certainly cannot take my actual soul or whatever.

StrymULTRA said:
See the issue, right? There's literally nothing hinting that Chara/Frisk only take a fraction of the Player's DT (especially when The Player is kinda powerless when Chara takes over), and their DT is literally matched from Asriel as well, who reached that level through stacking a lot of non 1-A SOULs.

Then logically all the Amalgamates should become High 7-C because they use the DT of the High 7-C human souls.

StrymULTRA said:
TLDR: 1-A is completely bunk, has 0 feats and has just an anti-feat (or two if you count the Chara thing). Leave the verse at 2-B, thank you.

StrymULTRA · Oct 27, 2024

Ti58 said:
I feel like this counts:

Alvin says "Let the Angel's power light your way". This is similar to us having a light inside our soul as well, which is mentioned A LOT. "Don't Forget" lyrics, many SAVE points, it's mentions by Spamton. The mentions of power and light are similar to the red buster/dual heal dialogue, where the narrator says "Your SOUL shined its power on Susie/Ralsei!". It's even more similar to dialogue from the first save point. It says "A power shines within you, breaking through the darkness." That is literally our power lighting our way, very similar to Alvin's dialogue.

In Chapter 2 Castle Town is named after our name we select at the beginning of the game. The castle is also full of Angel symbolism. Lots of wings on the doors, wings on the castle itself too. Other castles in the game are also themed around their rulers.

The Angel Noelle and Dess made has no facial features and the narrator notes that this is unsettling. Similar to the Goner Vessel we made.

We are one level above all the lightners. We are the only truly real character in the game.

Lightners are also one level above all darkners and also lightners are like Gods to darkners according to Seam (yeah so lightners are basically 1-A to darkners when a dark world is not present)

There's a door in Castle Town with a heart drawn on it, surrounded by 3 pair of wings.

Like I feel that lightners worshiping the player qualifies.

This is all just pointless yap. Worshipping as a God means nothing, and nothing confirms the Player being that one (at least, yet).

Aka no, nothing says that being a deity is a qualifier like, at all.

Ti58 said:
Not really, Chara isn't as powerful as the player. Chara to them is ultimately just a bunch of pixels on the screen for the player.

While they do manage to take the soul and player control, they don't take the player's literal actual soul, it only affects Frisk's wellbeing in the end.

Like Chara is only stronger than the player within the confines of Undertale (kind of similar to how darkners can be stronger than Kris/Susie/Noelle in the dark world despite being far less powerful in the light world due to being items).

Also tbf they can only actually interact with Player only with Player’s permission. If we refuse to give our soul, they will just be like “fine” and wait for another 10 minutes.

The profiles say otherwise, and you'll have to revise the scaling. As it stands now, Chara, Frisk and Player are all equal to each other according to the profiles.

Plus seeing as a game doesn't qualify for nothing, you'll have to show some actual feats the Player has that would make them above Chara besides that, but there's nothing.

Ti58 said:
Well Chara certainly cannot take my actual soul or whatever.

Because the in-verse Player is a character, not literally you.

Ti58 said:
Then logically all the Amalgamates should become High 7-C because they use the DT of the High 7-C human souls.

A fraction*

Flowey managed to reach that power through absorbing the SOULs, meaning that not much DT was extracted from them.

Ti58 · Oct 28, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
This is all just pointless yap. Worshipping as a God means nothing, and nothing confirms the Player being that one (at least, yet).

Aka no, nothing says that being a deity is a qualifier like, at all.

fair.

StrymULTRA said:
The profiles say otherwise, and you'll have to revise the scaling. As it stands now, Chara, Frisk and Player are all equal to each other according to the profiles.

I agree with Frisk and Chara being equal, but the player is above the two.

StrymULTRA said:
Plus seeing as a game doesn't qualify for nothing, you'll have to show some actual feats the Player has that would make them above Chara besides that, but there's nothing.

Because the in-verse Player is a character, not literally you.

The player downloading Deltarune is canon (also the device you download it on it seems). Chara is ultimately just some pixels to the screen for the player, they can just alter the files or throw the device out. At the end only we can delete Undertale from our devices. Chara is only similar in strength to the player within the confines of Undertale.

StrymULTRA said:
A fraction*

Flowey managed to reach that power through absorbing the SOULs, meaning that not much DT was extracted from them.

fair

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
I agree with Frisk and Chara being equal, but the player is above the two.

Based on?

Ti58 said:
The player downloading Deltarune is canon (also the device you download it on it seems). Chara is ultimately just some pixels to the screen for the player, they can just alter the files or throw the device out. At the end only we can delete Undertale from our devices. Chara is only similar in strength to the player within the confines of Undertale.

This doesn't say anything about superiority, as I said. I quoted the standards saying that simply viewing as a game isn't enough if there aren't feats.

Ti58 · Oct 28, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
Based on?

This doesn't say anything about superiority, as I said. I quoted the standards saying that simply viewing as a game isn't enough if there aren't feats.

How does being basically able to delete the entire cosmology of a verse not count

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
How does being basically able to delete the entire cosmology of a verse not count

Because that's something Chara can already do, and nothing says that the whole reality of these games is that inferior to the Player.

Right now, we don't know almost anything about them, and we shouldn't assume anything, given how few information there is.

And before you say "but the Player is us, and the games are only inside a PC!", then you're making the mistake of thinking that literally we as in real people are the Player, when instead that is just a in-verse character that's meant to represent us, which is very different. DDLC has its own in-verse Player, or EarthBound has its own in-verse player, but none of them are literally us, they're simply characters that are still part of these verses' narratives.

Aka no, we're treating the UTDR Player as a character like Asriel, Chara or Kris are, because claiming that they're actually us is fallacious as hell.

Ti58 · Oct 28, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
Because that's something Chara can already do, and nothing says that the whole reality of these games is that inferior to the Player.

Chara can't do that.

StrymULTRA said:
Right now, we don't know almost anything about them, and we shouldn't assume anything, given how few information there is.

And before you say "but the Player is us, and the games are only inside a PC!", then you're making the mistake of thinking that literally we as in real people are the Player, when instead that is just a in-verse character that's meant to represent us, which is very different. DDLC has its own in-verse Player, or EarthBound has its own in-verse player, but none of them are literally us, they're simply characters that are still part of these verses' narratives.

Aka no, we're treating the UTDR Player as a character like Asriel, Chara or Kris are, because claiming that they're actually us is fallacious as hell.

indirect diegesis vs direct diegesis discussion in vsbattles.com, i gotta get that one diagram Brix made

what you're arguing for (per ACDSian terms) is indirect diegesis I think

the "in-verse character that's meant to represent us", aka Kris, quickly turns out to be not us

the real life passage of time and us downloading the game on our devices is canon, the real world is canon. So more like OneShot player lore? I think? Maybe?

DDLC has both the PLAYERNAME/main character and the real out of universe player I think, not sure on that one though

In the dark world Kris, Susie and Noelle don't turn into in-verse characters meant to represent them (remember that the light world parallels reality and the dark world parallels RPGs and fiction)

Although I don't think the message is supposed to be "the games are only inside a PC!", that's not really the point either.

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
Chara can't do that.

The **** are you talking about?

Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Existence Erasure and Information Manipulation (Type 2. Erased the entirety of "Undertale", destroying the game world alongside all of its files, with attempts to reverse the damage through messing with said files being ineffective. Should be comparable to Frisk and restored the entire game world with possibly a TRUE RESET[5])

Ti58 said:
indirect diegesis vs direct diegesis discussion in vsbattles.com, i gotta get that one diagram Brix made

what you're arguing for (per ACDSian terms) is indirect diegesis I think

???

Ti58 said:
the "in-verse character that's meant to represent us", aka Kris, quickly turns out to be not us

No, Kris and Player are clearly meant to be different characters. But this doesn't mean that the in-verse Player is not a character that's part of the narrative.

Ti58 said:
the real life passage of time and us downloading the game on our devices is canon, the real world is canon.

Cool, doesn't qualify.

Ti58 said:
So more like OneShot player lore? I think? Maybe?

That's just 2-C. Please bring examples that do not harm your case.

Ti58 said:
Although I don't think the message is supposed to be "the games are only inside a PC!", that's not really the point either.

So you concede about the relationship between Player and games being unknown? Cool.

Ti58 · Oct 28, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
The **** are you talking about?

Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Existence Erasure and Information Manipulation (Type 2. Erased the entirety of "Undertale", destroying the game world alongside all of its files, with attempts to reverse the damage through messing with said files being ineffective. Should be comparable to Frisk and restored the entire game world with possibly a TRUE RESET[5])

no effect on the cosmology of Deltarune whatsoever, they only erase the timelines of Undertale.

by thre way you can reverse the damage by messing with the files

StrymULTRA said:
???

StrymULTRA said:
No, Kris and Player are clearly meant to be different characters. But this doesn't mean that the in-verse Player is not a character that's part of the narrative.

yeah so the game tells you that the character you thought represents you

StrymULTRA said:
Cool, doesn't qualify.

how

StrymULTRA said:
That's just 2-C. Please bring examples that do not harm your case.

that is literally the most blatant R>F transcendence ever. 2-C is too low

StrymULTRA said:
So you concede about the relationship between Player and games being unknown? Cool.

???

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
no effect on the cosmology of Deltarune whatsoever, they only erase the timelines of Undertale.

This doesn't matter as Deltarune wasn't even released.

The Player cannot mess with both UT and DR at once.

Ti58 said:

The middle one is how the wiki treats Plater characters, yes.

Ti58 said:
how

I already quoted the standards above. Don't ignore them.

Ti58 said:
that is literally the most blatant R>F transcendence ever. 2-C is too low

Make a CRT for that then.

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
by thre way you can reverse the damage by messing with the files

If you talk about deleting the file that is a check for whenever you made a genocide, that's not canon.

Ti58 · Oct 28, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
This doesn't matter as Deltarune wasn't even released.

fair, although deltarune is still alluded to in Undertale (has been the case since its release although the glitch with fun events made it impossible to access for a while). The player can delete Chara too though technically.

StrymULTRA said:
The Player cannot mess with both UT and DR at once.

wdym

StrymULTRA said:
The middle one is how the wiki treats Plater characters, yes.

I feel like that shouldn't be the case with games containing direct irl player involvement like OneShot or DDLC

StrymULTRA said:
I already quoted the standards above. Don't ignore them.

the real world is canon. But Chara literally does nothing to the irl player, the player can still delete Chara while Chara very obviously cannot delete the player, the player can enter the game files, Chara can't etc.

StrymULTRA said:
Make a CRT for that then.

maybe i will someday

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
The player can delete Chara too though technically.

Proof?

Ti58 said:
I feel like that shouldn't be the case with games containing direct irl player involvement like OneShot or DDLC

Then you'll just have to revise the Player standards as a whole, as for now, we treat player entities as only in-universe characters and not literally us.

Ti58 said:
the real world is canon. But Chara literally does nothing to the irl player, the player can still delete Chara while Chara very obviously cannot delete the player, the player can enter the game files, Chara can't etc.

Are you dense, or just trolling?

I gave you evidence of Chara being able to delete the files, and you just... ignored it. And no, nothing remotely alludes at the Player being able to delete Chara or similar, you're just spouting headcanon rn.

StrymULTRA · Oct 28, 2024

Ti58 said:
wdym

On this, we simply lack proof of the Player being able to manipulate both these worlds at once, we see them being able to do so only one per time.

Wikisource · Oct 29, 2024

I feel quite unclear about R/F, the evidence and arguments remind me more of breaking the 4th wall than R/F.

Ti58 · Oct 29, 2024

StrymULTRA said:
Proof?

idk like being able to delete Undertale.exe in its entirety

StrymULTRA said:
Then you'll just have to revise the Player standards as a whole, as for now, we treat player entities as only in-universe characters and not literally us.

which is often fair but not really always

StrymULTRA said:
I gave you evidence of Chara being able to delete the files, and you just... ignored it.

that does not equal to going into the literal game files

StrymULTRA said:
And no, nothing remotely alludes at the Player being able to delete Chara or similar, you're just spouting headcanon rn.

Itzmrbonezone · Oct 29, 2024

Yea The Player ain't 1-A for the reasons Strym already has stated.

There is nothing that suggests the Player indeed views the game as fiction in a true R>F qualitative sense, there's only vague stuff which doesn't qualify at all due to how vague it is.

Deltarune and Undertale cosmology + the player

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