Megami Tensei: The 1-A Ratings

Introduction​

His smile and optimism. Gone.

Anyways, its been a long time since this verse has seen any sort of revision on the site, and with the new tiering system, it seems best to see how the verse stands up to the new qualifications. This is only the tip of the iceberg, however. Think of this like a prologue, if anything. Once again, thank you to the Persona Wank Squad, now graduated to the MegaTen Wank Squad for helping putting this together. Without further ado:

Reestablishing 1-A​

Beyond the Concept of Dimensions​

Everyone knows about this one, already, so:

"After I disappeared, I could see everything that everyone was doing," Serph continued. "For Sera, the diffusion stopped within the ⟨EGG⟩ due to the shell, but for me, it was much more vast than that, expanding across dimensions (次元); for a Quantum Being (量子的存在), the third dimension is nothing more than a very narrow, limited, lower dimension. Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions.

I don't know, nor do I have the words to explain it. Just as Sera can only roughly describe the contents of her interaction with ⟨God⟩, now that her existence has converged into a three-dimensional physical body, she can only handle three-dimensional words and concepts. Anything beyond that is beyond the ability of the hardware to conform to the physical laws (物理法) of this material world (物質界)."

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The seeming uncertainty with which this statement is done is largely amended by the background context. To wit, the Buddha-world (To which it refers) is described as:

"I understand the feeling. This is the eternal resting place that every spirit yearns for. All of the pain and suffering of existence is not here. It is not here because existence itself is not here. You were born a demon of war, went through bloody struggles, and have groaned under the weight of your fate. It is understandable that you don't want to leave the peace of mind that you have finally found."

A cat... a black cat with silvery eyes sat with its tail wrapped around its matching limbs. Its mouth didn't move, yet it was certainly talking. In this <Place> where there is no up, down, heaven, and earth, the cat's ears twitched calmly and its silvery eyes blinked unhesitantly.

'There is no existence here, and so there is no distinction between ⟨I⟩ and ⟨Thou⟩. Though at the very least, they are necessary for dialogue to take place. Even when we ask ourselves questions, the mind creates within itself an ⟨I⟩ to assert one's opinion and a virtual ⟨Thou⟩ to oppose it. This space is, so to speak, one giant ⟨I⟩. You are but a grain of foam floating for a moment in it. To such an ⟨I⟩ like you, I will be claimed as a ⟨Thou⟩. It's just another tentative word, but it is a necessary step before dialogue can commence.

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'You're watching, are you? Yes, I'm certain you are.'

A voice of silence whispered. Within the silence and darkness, in the complete emptiness where those who do not belong to the world would immediately lose their minds due to the vastness of nothingness and incomprehension, the voice spread out like a wave, as a sound that is not a sound.

It did not weaken or disappear like normal sounds, nor did it mix with other sounds. Each sound was established as ⟨information⟩, with sharp edges like that of a cut jewel. Just like sparkling jeweled necklaces on a string, they never lost their clarity and brilliance, simultaneously reaching out to every moment in the vast nothingness.

"Buddhism is divided in two main categories: The Lesser Vehicle, and The Greater Vehicle. The Hīnayāna and the Mahāyāna. You are now, so to speak, in the realm of the saints in Mahāyāna Buddhism. Here, the practitioner, aiming for personal enlightenment, achieves liberation and reaches Nirvana..."

"In Mahāyāna Buddhism, however, the goal is not to make the realm of the enlightened yours alone, but to guide ordinary people into reaching Nirvana alongside you. You must vow to bring as many friends as possible to Paradise."

"You can see them, can't you? You can see your friends. Not only that, but you can also see everything that is happening in the world. There is nothing that you cannot see and feel. Your flesh has regained its original quantum attributes by being stripped down to the smallest unit, below the molecule. You are everywhere, at all times, and observe all possible worlds simultaneously. However, the macroscopic laws of the material world do not allow for such an existence, and so you continue to exist only in this imaginary space, merely as an observer of all things."

There was a faint movement in the space of nothingness, and it "moved" only because there was something that perceived it as movement. But the reaction still belonged to the realm of the unconscious, like the tossing and turning of a person in sleep.

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'It's bright. I can see the stars.' The silver-haired young man who had once been known as Serph looked around. 'I thought this place was pitch black, just an empty plane. But now, it's bright. There is light. There are stars. There are ripples on the shore. And then there's the music...'

'That's because you've changed the way you look at things. Everything has many facets and takes on different forms depending on the direction you look and how you look at it.' The silver-eyed black cat said.

"Because you have changed, what you see has also changed. Now you can feel the light and twinkling here, and the music they make. Those twinkles you see in the stars, they are a world of their own. See, the world you were in is there, too."

It was right under my feet, as beautiful as a stone washed by the waves, I could have picked it up and rolled it around in my hands. As far as the eye could see, one such world was shining, scattered countless times over thousands, tens of thousands, and even hundreds of millions. The brilliance of the infinite world filled the area with a faint brightness, as if it were a sea of stars.

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So, the Buddha-world is nothingness devoid of existence, beyond the distinctions and differentiations present in the lower realms (While obviously still having its own), above space and time, etc etc. This is emphatically not simply a higher-dimensional space, and so the statement in which it is claimed to be beyond the concept of dimensions is more than correct with all this in mind.

Awakened World is Illusion​

In short: The world is an illusion, transient and bound by the ego. It is then transcended by the archetypal world (Atziluth. Also referred to as "Kadath" here. The same as the Buddha-world from Quantum Devil Saga), which is in the collective unconscious beyond the domain of the ego, and which is explicitly differentiated from the transient world.

This is stated again (Shin Megami Tensei: Schwarzwelt Reminiscences)band again (Shin Megami Tensei: Chaos Museum) throughout the series. Most recently, this was reiterated in Shin Megami Tensei V, where Daisoujou states that his own existence is only a dream that the world sees, and which he will one day "wake up from" by becoming one with the world. For reference, Daisoujou is a Buddhist demon, and so there is no doubt as to what he's referring to, especially when attaining Buddhahood has already been referred to as becoming one with the universe before (Shin Megami Tensei II)

And needless to say:

In general, such cases can be relatively straightforward, as in cosmologies where conventional reality is portrayed as "not really real," and there are superior, "more real" worlds beyond it.

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Qualitative Difference​

I'll just quote Ultima for this one:

Anyway: A piece of supporting evidence that, in my view, harms the notion that the statement given is only equivalent to a single dimensional jump, is this one. To give some framing context to it, I'll give a brief overview of MT's cosmology.

Basically, existence passes through four stages in order to be actualized. These four stages are also four worlds, four planes of existence: Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah. In this hierarchy, each higher plane transcends a lower one and acts as the basis and emanator of its whole existence. For instance, Assiah is the material world, and it is then followed by Yetzirah, the higher-dimensional realm that acts as the foundation for it and the "pre-existent matter" from which it emerges. Likewise, as Yetzirah is to Assiah, Briah is to Yetzirah.

However, Atziluth, the highest plane and the one to which the "beyond dimensions" statement refer to, is different. As the scan above says, the four worlds seem to be connected, but in truth Atziluth exists in "absolute separation" (Apparently, an alternate translation of the term used, 隔絶, is "inaccessibility" as well, so, that's interesting) from the layers below it. This is a trait that the text attributes to it alone, so this "separation" doesn't really refer to it simply being outside of the lower three worlds (Because each higher world is outside the lower one already), and since the realm is non-spatial in nature, it obviously doesn't refer to a kind of physical distance between the layers, either.

So, in conjunction with the above stuff, I think it's fairly clear evidence that Atziluth does transcend the layers beneath it by more than a single infinity. They have their own relationships of transcendence among them, but Atziluth is something fundamentally apart from all that. It's absolutely isolated, inaccessible, not really dwarfing them in the same way they dwarf each other.

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Self-explanatory, all-in-all. We can also illustrate the fundamental disconnect between Atziluth and the lower three realms by going over a few things. Namely, the spheres of existence governing it:

Kether
Symbolism: Crown
Archangel: Metatron
Planet: Tenth Heaven
The point where divinity flows out. The pure will of God, the source of all things. All existence radiates from here, and all past, present and future are here. It is both a starting point and a final destination.

Chokmah
Symbolism: Wisdom
Archangel: Raziel
Planets: Zodiac Signs
Giving active meaning to the divine power emanating from Kether, it becomes the origin of creation. It is the inspiration, the revelation, the epiphany that triggers it, and also nothing less than the wisdom of God. In that respect it is seen as a symbol of the masculine principle.

Binah
Symbol: Intelligence
Archangel: Zafkiel
Planet: Saturn
The mysterious womb of all things, the supreme mother, the fountain of creation. The seed of creation that arises in Chokmah is nurtured by Binah and guided into form for existence. A Sephirah with a passive role, sometimes interpreted as "Understanding."

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So, quick primer: Megami Tensei's cosmology works on the basis that the higher levels manifest themselves in the lower levels, as they are "steps" or "stages" in which creation itself is still abstract and unformed, yet to find expression. Kether, Chokmah and Binah are thus the universe in its most inchoate state. Kether is pure nothingness (ゲーム攻略本 付録付)SFC 真・女神転生II 攻略の手引き), prior to any activity, Chokmah is the first conceptual spark flaring in that unconscious mind, the source of intelligence, still formless but nevertheless bestowing meaning to the light emanating from Kether, and Binah is the "womb" in which that formlessness is given shape and sent to the lower worlds.

This dynamic (Crown —> Wisdom —> Understanding) is obviously a summation of the processes going on in the human mind (As the collective unconscious is the beginning of the mind). Reality starts there, and shapes itself from formlessness and into material form through thought and cognition, which originates the four-tiered hierarchy of worlds.

That said, however, there being only four of those worlds is not universal across the mythic settings in the verse (Which all simultaneously exist), and in fact is part of only one paradigm. Here, for example, Kazuma Kaneko comments on Gnosticism describing a "fractal" reality of spheres within spheres:

That is why the Vortex resembles a sphere.

KK: Well, it is already thought that the Universe has that type of a bubble like structure. There are these kinds of things in the Universe whose surface resembles an eggshell, but are empty on the inside. We don’t really know what they’re really like though. They may be fractal structures similar to mandalas. There’s something on the inside, which is divided into other parts…something like that.

If we take current universe theories into consideration, they end up looking identical to Hindu philosophy.

KK: It’s interesting if you think about the myths and the outlook on the universe together. If you take Hindu philosophy to the extreme, everything ends up being Vishnu through fractal structures.

We encounter the same worldview in Gnosticism.

KK: Yes, yes. Gnosticism has the fractal structure view as well. In their outlook on the universe, first there was a sphere, then another sphere, and so on. In the center of the mandala lies Mount Sumeru, then there are several layers with several creatures…They’re similar.

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Which is acknowledged in Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE, where one of Abraxas' titles is "The Princeps of the 365 Spheres," which is a reference to how (According to his Compendium entry), he was once the supreme being of Gnosticism before he was eventually demonized and turned into a mere fallen angel.

So, in sum: Whether there are 3 levels below the archetypal world, or, say, 364, doesn't matter. Atziluth is qualitatively apart from the lesser worlds and in absolute separation and inaccessibility from them, and so how large of a hierarchy there is underneath it is arbitrary, and it will be at the top regardless.

Addressing Anti-Feats​

Human Evolution​

Anyway: The first anti-feat to be addressed, obviously, the fact that 3-D characters are seemingly becoming as strong as purported 1-As on their own, which is problematic because 1-A can't be reached by lower realities adding up to themselves at all, so a lower being can't cross over into 1-A using its own lower existence. The simple answer to how this exists can be summed up in one word: Observation.

To preface, Observation is a power (mostly) granted to Humans by that of the Axiom - the apex of the series in its entirety.



I figure I could stop there, but let's continue. In essence, Observation assigns an answer to what humans perceive to be unknown. That uncertainty becomes actuality, and that actuality becomes reality. This actuality shapes the nature of reality across the totality of MegaTen, including its higher dimensions, such as the Expanse, a higher-plane of existence created by human thoughts, as mentioned earlier, and all its demons, even those as powerful as YHVH are inexorably tied to the bounds of Observation, as he is nothing but a production of it:

As described by Stephen, "observation" (sometimes described as "understanding") is the ability humans possess to give structure to the formless. In this instance, "observation" has nothing to do with sight, but rather human perception. It is an extension of the philosophical concept of "qualia," or individual, subjective experiences. For example, the sensation of seeing color is not easily communicated, yet something humanity possess a shared understanding of. Likewise, YHVH only exists because of this shared observation.

Of course, forms of communication are necessary in order for humans to share their observations with one another. But once framed by language, these concepts change in nature. In effect, they become bound by language, much like the shared understanding of YHVH. What Dagda and the Divine Powers seek to do is free themselves from the limiting existence forced upon them by language. Because YHVH never revealed himself to humanity, he is not bound by language the same way they are.

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This extends not only to demons, but to the world itself. The universe is a product of Observation through-and-through, and so the mental activities of humans are ontologically prior to their physical selves in the spatiotemporal world. This metaphysical priority that the mind has over the body, then, is the source of humanity's potential, which would have MegaTen fall under this stipulation in the FAQ:

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

Furthermore, since the "lack of continuity" that exists between the higher level and the lower one is structural, and not causal, there can potentially be more unorthodox ways of bypassing the 1-A barrier. For example: Things that don't have anything to do with raw power, but just a general transfer/exposure of information between one level and another. Another example could be cosmologies where a higher level originates from the thoughts/beliefs/etc of inhabitants of a lower level; while these thoughts literally originating within the lower reality and then somehow "floating away" to form a higher one would be a disqualifier, no anti-feat is present if the verse has it so these operations simply already exist in a higher reality.

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This is wildly consistent throughout the entire series, as the potential of humans is framed as something far beyond their finite selves, because humans at their core are far more than their bodies. There are numerous examples of this in the series, but to save time, I'll stick to a few: The first being Persona 2: Tsumi to Batsu, a spin-off manga you might not have heard of, where all of humanity's potential is sealed behind two books, named the Red Book and the Black Book.




As you just read, Personas, and even Demons, are mere fragmental aspects of the totality of humanities explicit infinite power, and the sheer amount of it is simply far too much for any one human to effectively maintain. In fact, the liberation of man's soul would effectively destroy their existence, hence the books being sealed with a key. And, further, Philemon directly states that humanity unlocking the information contained within the books is the same thing as humans discovering "what they are."

In Shin Megami Tensei I, the same thing is stated, pretty much: The body of man is finite, but the mind is infinite, and though the body can never be made infinite, it can be trained to be brought closer to the infinite than one might expect. (Mind you that they are obviously using "finite" and "infinite" in the philosophical sense, and not in the sense of quantitative things)

Do you believe man's mind is infinite? Even if the mind is boundless, what good is that if its vessel is not? Man is finite from his beginning. Nothing infinite can fit inside a finite vessel. The aim of practicing asceticism is to hone that finite vessel. For one to train the mind, one must first train the body. As one trains the body, the mind is trained at the same time. Thus does one improve the finite body and infinite mind side by side. As one runs about the mountain paths each day, the body will naturally be honed. To train your mind in the process, one must take notice of all that surrounds them. The grass growing from the soil, the trees standing tall, the mountains looming... The clouds passing overhead, the flow of the wind, the stolid earth... You must train hard until you are one with these things. To make the finite infinite can never be done. But it can brought closer to the infinite than you might think.

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In fact, the idea of humanity in and of itself being in a lesser state, in search of a higher evolution is something that has been recurrently asserted out throughout the series. Once again, we take a look at the Tree of Life, particularly in the way Mr. Edogawa explains it in Persona 3:



The Sefirot, and its 22 pathways, represent the manner in which humanity should evolve, as well as housing the answers most pressing to human existence itself. Persona 3 in particular tends to beat you over the head with this, as the potential for individuation is seen as the greatest power of all As such, it should be no surprise that the Universe Arcana, the card Igor never thought possible, would adhere to this, and literally be described as "perfection," and infinite, with nothing out of bounds for the user. The Velvet Room, which facilitates this growth for those granted The Fool, is directly theorized to help bring man, and the collective unconsciousness to its next level of evolution, as suggested in P3xP4 World Analyze:



I should note that this in no way serves as a contradiction to Philemon and Nyarlathotep's existences; as divine and abstract as they are, they too are humans, but in a primordial sense, which would mean even they, too, aren't fully complete, and seek a human who has evolved into something whole.

And in Shin Megami Tensei V, the same theme is explicitly repeated. Here, the power of Observation that binds all demons is referred to as "Knowledge", which in its setting once belonged to the gods before being given to humans. Once a demon and a human with the adequate Knowledge merge together, they return to their original godly state, and gain infinite hidden potential.

And a recurrent theme in the series as a whole, of course, is that demons are contrasted with humans by the fact that, while they are immortal, their souls never change, whereas humans are mortal and yet can nevertheless evolve spiritually (The latter detail tying into Shin Megami Tensei IV, where your growth in strength is explicitly correlated with growth in spiritual powers).

This is stated also in Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse, by the same character who in V talks about how Knowledge/Observation binds and entraps gods and demons, so obviously, though the games take place in distinct multiverses in the MegaTen setting, the theme is continuous between both (As it, after all, is a key point of the entire franchise's premise). In V, demons are stagnant and unable to progress because they don't have Knowledge and are bound by it, whereas humans do, thus once again establishing humanity's infinite potential stems from their power of Observation, the power of the mind.

Beyond just the narrative, we do see this in-combat, so, enjoy 100+ scans of Humans from Shin Megami Tensei & Persona's Reactive Evolution. So, all-in-all, the strength of humans is a result of their mind and soul, the source of Observation, which is responsible for the creation of the verse and its higher-dimensional and undimensioned spaces proper, making 3-D humans with infinite power rather consistent, I say.

Demon Fusion​

With the introduction of the new 1-A standards, specifically those regarding qualitative superiority, one may be inclined to argue Megami Tensei would be disqualified from 1-A, on the basis that non-1-A Demons can serve as fusion materials for 1-A Demons. Superficially, this may seem like a logically-sound argument; however, it quickly falls apart when examining the specific guidelines of the Tiering System FAQ:

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an ''infinite'' subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

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In this case, vice versa would have to be true. Demons would have to be "more" than the sum of their fusion components. Fortunately, this is precisely how Demon fusion is framed within the series itself. In Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine, Mido describes the process of Demon fusion as altering the "shell,' the physical appearance and resulting strength of a Demon, without modifying or changing the fundamental essence, the "spiritual body." From this we learn that Demon Fusion is not a matter of combining or adding up the powers of Demons together to create a stronger one but rather the manifestation of a specific archetype by transmogrifying "shells" with particular combinations of other Demons.

This notion is supported by the ''Shin Megami Tensei IV Dengeki Comic Anthology'', in which Flynn fuses the 1-A Masakado with a Valkyrie to create the Low 1-C Maya, displaying that the power of a fused Demon doesn't necessarily have any correlation with the power of its ingredients. Furthermore, many Special Fusion Demons are meant to have purely thematic or symbolic recipes, such as Izanagi-no-Okami, whose fusion ingredients spell out the phrase イザナギノオオカミツクレ ("Create Izanagi-no-Okami") with the first kana of their names in Japanese; Susano-o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi, who in many games can be fused by combining the other two siblings together; and Primal Satan, whose fusion ingredients are identical to the remnants used only to manifest his presence in the story (Said ingredients being demons that are related to his mythical archetype, such as Lucifer and Samael).

So, given this, there is no actual quantitative splitting or adding up, and thus no actual anti-feat.

Well this will be rather fun... #following for now.

Anyways, I helped with the revisions (even saw this message go through drafts) naturally I agree.

inb4 the 1 million people who have been eluding to downgrade SMT don't show up.

Not sure why this was closed so soon, but looks good to me.

Queue.

Agree with everything.

I agree with OP

As someone who helped write part of the post, I obviously agree with everything presented.

I was asked to comment again, and I thought my first post made it obvious enough.

But I agree with this.

I approve of everything in the OP.

Theglassman12 said:

I disagree cause personas can’t even break out of bedrock. Instant downgrade frfr

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Just upscale the bedrock, problem solved.

Bedrock confirmed strongest stone wall in the series

Theglassman12 said:

I disagree cause personas can’t even break out of bedrock. Instant downgrade frfr

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A 1-A sized bedrock?

disagree for bunkermans reasons (i agree and verse mechanics just clearly explain any potential anti feat)

BestMGQScalerEver said:

disagree for bunkermans reasons (i agree and verse mechanics just clearly explain any potential anti feat)

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Bunkerman

In all seriousness this looks fine.

Cease the conversation. State agreements or disagreements or leave, anything that isn’t mentioned on the thread is irrelevant.

So would the cosmology remain the same, peaking at 8 layers into 1-A?

Layers are irrelevant, but yes — the cosmology remains 1-A.

Separate Persona from SMT and we have a deal.

DarkDragonMedeus said:

A 1-A sized bedrock?

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Willl this upgrade Minecraft?

Agree

Yeah um, there isn't a lot for me to say, I agree with the 1-A tiers staying as they are (not sure if Axiom itself changes but I don't think Milky wants to tackle that just yet) . I knew it was likely Persona / SMT would stay as it is, but this confirmed it.

I agree with this thread as well

And I know Milly said not to indulge in conversation, but seriously why were there further doubts about SMT and Persona connecting. Connections between SMT: IF, the Devil Summoner series, and Persona have existed for decades at this point, its been connected.

Rakih_Elyan said:

Separate Persona from SMT and we have a deal.

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Make a downgrade or cope.

Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:

Make a downgrade or

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Womp womp

AnAverageUsername said:

I agree with this thread as well

And I know Milly said not to indulge in conversation, but seriously why were there further doubts about SMT and Persona connecting. Connections between SMT: IF, the Devil Summoner series, and Persona have existed for decades at this point, its been connected.

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The fact that Persona is outright a canonical spinoff of SMT with several of the same characters, attacks, and concepts appearing time and time again in each entry makes it genuinely baffling when people just go "these are just references with no connections"

Also I agree with the OP

3 mod agreements and two former mod agreements. Should be good enough to be accepted, and closed.

The real revisions start soon.

I agree with everything

Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:

3 mod agreements and two former mod agreements. Should be good enough to be accepted, and closed.

The real revisions start soon.

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Pretty much. Closing.