Upgrading Lord of the Mysteries

LOTM_Historian · Jun 15, 2024

We have been downplaying Lord of the Mysteries characters for quite a while now. Since the Earth is locked behind the world barrier, we aren't able to see massive DC feats within the material world. However, Lord of the Mysteries compensates for that by characters affecting higher dimensional structures such as these. Like the Eternal Blazing Sun shaking Sefirah Castle which is stated to be an infinite space and higher dimensional, or the Celestial Worthy's aura shaking the entire Astral World which holds all the higher dimensions structures beneath it. Or mid-level beyonder creating their own spirit worlds like with Paramita and sealing parts of the spirit world. We should not be ignoring these feats.

Tell me if a link breaks because sometimes Imgur does that for some reason. Also, make sure to load all other images when you click on the links because some of these scales are quite long:

LOTM Cosmology Explanation blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...n/Lord_of_the_Mysteries_Cosmology_Explanation

Tell me what you guys think.

Agree: Ultima_Reality, Elizhaa, DarkDragonMedeus, ActuallySpaceMan42, LOTM_Historian, Super_Nova, Bomboopengin, Attendent_of_Mysteries

Disagree:

BestMGQScalerEver · Jun 16, 2024

I'll be replying to relevant cosmology stuff.

LOTM_Historian said:
We have been downplaying Lord of the Mysteries characters for quite a while now. Since the world is locked behind the world barrier, we aren't able to see massive DC feats within the material world. However, Lord of the Mysteries compensates for that by characters affecting higher dimensional structures such as these. Like the Eternal Blazing Sun shaking Sefirah Castle which is stated to be an infinite space and higher dimensional, or the Celestial Worthy's aura shaking the entire Astral World which holds all the higher dimensions structures beneath it. Or mid-level beyonder creating their own spirit worlds like with Paramita and sealing parts of the spirit world. We should not be ignoring these feats.

Tell me if a link breaks because sometimes Imgur does that for some reason. Also, make sure to load all other images when you click on the links because some of these scales are quite long:

5D Spirit world: https://imgur.com/gallery/5d-spirit-world-lord-of-mysteries-zmeOo4d

This would just be 4-D.

LOTM_Historian said:
Sefirah Castle 6D: https://imgur.com/gallery/sefirah-castle-6d-scale-lord-of-mysteries-Bbm1EoH

"Above" and "transcended" here is vague and we can't get any higher dimensions from it. I'd say 4-D too but I also vaguely remember some other things that suggest a higher tier but cant recall.

LOTM_Historian said:
Painting World 5D+: https://imgur.com/gallery/painting-world-5d-lord-of-mysteries-amY90lv

I can actually see 5-D here for painting world since it has it's own space-time and contains its own spirit world which would make it 4+1-D. This would also make the entire main LotM world 5-D as well as it's an alternate space-time.

LOTM_Historian said:
Mirror World (Potentially 5D?): https://imgur.com/gallery/mirror-world-potentially-5d-lord-of-mysteries-K6Ol95c

Little vague, no?

LOTM_Historian said:
Infinite 3D Box of the Great Old Ones: https://imgur.com/gallery/infinite-3d-box-of-great-old-ones-lord-of-mysteries-0OFncCf

"Gave one the feeling". I wouldn't use this as evidence.

LOTM_Historian said:
Potential 4D Blue Avenger (Alger's ship): https://imgur.com/gallery/potential-4d-blue-avenger-algers-ship-lord-of-mysteries-XMgI8ly

Sure I guess.

LOTM_Historian said:
7D to possibly 8D Astral World: https://imgur.com/gallery/7d-to-possible-8d-astral-world-lord-of-mysteries-BmV9AoN

Having every concept of reality including space and time would likely be low 1-A with new tiering system.

LOTM_Historian said:
Mythical Creature forms and Character dimensionality: https://imgur.com/gallery/mythical-creature-forms-character-dimensionality-lord-of-mysteries-haQGZpH

A lot of this is vague, spirits would be at best 4-D with my above points, mythical creatures would just have BDE type 1 for lacking spatial characteristics.

LOTM_Historian said:
Angelic Hax Scale to the Original Creator's Dimensionality/Layer: https://imgur.com/gallery/angelic-h...imensionality-layer-lord-of-mysteries-KC9WXR9

No. Just because something originated from something doesnt mean it scales to the originator. That's like saying since a 1-A being is the origin of physical reality, physical reality would scale to them.

LOTM_Historian said:
Original Creator's Transduality: https://imgur.com/gallery/original-creators-transduality-lord-of-mysteries-trMgTrH

This could be 1-A. I asked Ultima about it once and he said he could see it being 1-A.

Also I'm not sure if higher dimensions (although present) would even get tiers considering you need quantitative superiority

LOTM_Historian · Jun 16, 2024

This would just be 4-D.

Wouldnt it be 5D since not only is the spirit world stated to be a higher spatial dimension within the scans I showed, its also stated to encompass the past, present, and future? Therefore, it has a space-time continuum embedded and is a higher spatial dimension which would be +2 in dimensionality.

"Above" and "transcended" here is vague and we can't get any higher dimensions from it. I'd say 4-D too but I also vaguely remember some other things that suggest a higher tier but cant recall.

Within the scans I sent it also says it's an infinite height and distance from the people within the spirit world multiple times. Does that not help upgrade it?

No. Just because something originated from something doesnt mean it scales to the originator. That's like saying since a 1-A being is the origin of physical reality, physical reality would scale to them.

I would say that too however, in the scans I sent, it also stated that Beyonder characteristics are projections of things within the Astral World.

Also I'm not sure if higher dimensions (although present) would even get tiers considering you need quantitative superiority

Wouldn't Eternal Blazing Sun shaking Sefirah Castle, or Cestial Worthy's aura shaking "the entire astral world" be enough to qualify their AP and Hax to these dimensions/realms? I show the evidence of them performing these feats within the scans. Also, there are more feats such as Seq 4 Madame's being able to create their own spirit worlds.

This could be 1-A. I asked Ultima about it once and he said he could see it being 1-A.

Should we make a character page for the Original Creator?

Unqver · Jun 16, 2024

？ Damn, this can't really be the Lord of Mysteries I know.

BestMGQScalerEver · Jun 16, 2024

LOTM_Historian said:
Wouldnt it be 5D since not only is the spirit world stated to be a higher spatial dimension within the scans I showed, its also stated to encompass the past, present, and future? Therefore, it has a space-time continuum embedded and is a higher spatial dimension which would be +2 in dimensionality.

I can see that then.

LOTM_Historian said:
Within the scans I sent it also says it's an infinite height and distance from the people within the spirit world multiple times. Does that not help upgrade it?

Don't think it does but might want to ask someone else.

LOTM_Historian said:
Wouldn't Eternal Blazing Sun shaking Sefirah Castle, or Cestial Worthy's aura shaking "the entire astral world" be enough to qualify their AP and Hax to these dimensions/realms? I show the evidence of them performing these feats within the scans. Also, there are more feats such as Seq 4 Madame's being able to create their own spirit worlds.

I meant as in there needs to be proof these higher spatial dimensions are infinitely larger than the lower one and view it as infinitesimal. Infinite distance away might count but I dunno personally

Midirum · Jul 12, 2024

Ihsjihahxu · Jul 12, 2024

I can't view the scan.

Gaming_Anonymous · Jul 12, 2024

Can't view the scans. It says error 404, seems like it got deleted.

LOTM_Historian · Jul 12, 2024

Ihsjihahxu said:
I can't view the scan.

Okay, the links should be fixed now. I had to remake all of them and put them into Google Docs because for some reason imgur is showing 404 for all of my images.

LOTM_Historian · Jul 12, 2024

Gaming_Anonymous said:
Can't view the scans. It says error 404, seems like it got deleted.

Okay, the links should be fixed now. I had to remake all of them and put them into Google Docs because for some reason imgur is showing 404 for all of my images. Tell me if something is not working. Imgur just made me waste 2 hours of my life trying to fix this

Ultima_Reality · Jul 12, 2024

This has 1-Ashit, so, queue, ergo, etc.

Rakih_Elyan · Aug 11, 2024

LOTM_Historian · Aug 12, 2024

I made a cosmology explanation blog, still adding onto it but here is what we have so far: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...n/Lord_of_the_Mysteries_Cosmology_Explanation

Super_Nova · Aug 13, 2024

Rez · Aug 14, 2024

Midirum · Aug 16, 2024

LOTM_Historian · Aug 17, 2024

Super_Nova · Aug 17, 2024

While the Spirit World seems to match the description of a 4D world, it should be noted that painters aren’t actually stated to create their own spirit. The spirit world could very well simply manifest itself in any space created. We can also see that the spirit world in the hostel for example can still see the seven lights, so in some way it is connected. Although, even if they do create it, I would still he hesitant in giving them higher-dimensional AP as creating the spirit world has no offensive capabilities and the characters themselves aren’t higher-dimensional, only their astral projections are.

Also any character who creates a “space-time”(wether it be Painting world or anything else) cannot be given Low 2-C levels of AP because, as stated in the creation feats page, it must also be size of a universe, not just have it’s own timeline/space-time. And it is very clearly seen that a lot of these spaces, like the hostel which I mentioned earlier, have defined borders.

Although, we can give Ankewelt (and in addition Adam too) Low 2-C because iirc Groselle’s Travels does seem to fit these descriptions and the spirit world does seem completely separate from the real world.

Original Creator fits Transduality really well so if we’re gonna make a page for it, it does deserve 1-A. Although I’d refrain from doing so as he’s only ever been mentioned scarcely.

But, you might have a case for Celestial Worthy being 1-A for shaking the Astral Realm, as it is very clear that the entire realm is purely conceptual and infinite.

(Also unrelated, but we should fix the wording on Klein’s page as he never actually “created” a supernova. The entire attack was purely conceptual.)

LOTM_Historian · Aug 17, 2024

Super_Nova said:
While the Spirit World seems to match the description of a 4D world

I believe the Spirit World should qualify as 5D, as it not only has an additional spatial layer but also an equivalent temporal layer, as outlined in the explanation blog.

Super_Nova said:
it should be noted that painters aren’t actually stated to create their own spirit. The spirit world could very well simply manifest itself in any space created. We can also see that the spirit world in the hostel for example can still see the seven lights, so in some way it is connected. Although, even if they do create it, I would still he hesitant in giving them higher-dimensional AP as creating the spirit world has no offensive capabilities and the characters themselves aren’t higher-dimensional, only their astral projections are.

Also any character who creates a “space-time”(wether it be Painting world or anything else) cannot be given Low 2-C levels of AP because, as stated in the creation feats page, it must also be size of a universe, not just have it’s own timeline/space-time. And it is very clearly seen that a lot of these spaces, like the hostel which I mentioned earlier, have defined borders.

I wasn't arguing for low-level Painter Pathway Beyonders to have higher-dimensional AP. While they might possess some smurf hax, they wouldn't have that level of AP at this stage. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they don't have physical forms in reality, they're purely spirit bodies or astral projections. Btw my intention with this was just to include these realms in the overall cosmology explanation page. Once we learn more about High-dimensional Overseer, we can use the painting world more.

Super_Nova said:
But, you might have a case for Celestial Worthy being 1-A for shaking the Astral Realm, as it is very clear that the entire realm is purely conceptual and infinite.

"For CW shaking the Astral World—considering he was heavily weakened (IIRC, inhabiting Antigonus's body)—I believe Klein, MGOD, and Adam, should be on par with him.

Super_Nova said:
(Also unrelated, but we should fix the wording on Klein’s page as he never actually “created” a supernova. The entire attack was purely conceptual.)

I agree.

Bomboopengin · Aug 17, 2024

I agree on most points regarding such as OC and Angels hax. However I think scaling Blue Avenger to 4D would not be accurate as the origins of it are not fully explained yet. Also, the "extradimensional" in this context doesn't seem to be referring to 4D just because the ship mostly behaves like a 3D object.

Super_Nova · Aug 17, 2024

LOTM_Historian said:
I believe the Spirit World should qualify as 5D, as it not only has an additional spatial layer but also an equivalent temporal layer, as outlined in the explanation blog.

I wasn't arguing for low-level Painter Pathway Beyonders to have higher-dimensional AP. While they might possess some smurf hax, they wouldn't have that level of AP at this stage. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they don't have physical forms in reality, they're purely spirit bodies or astral projections. Btw my intention with this was just to include these realms in the overall cosmology explanation page. Once we learn more about High-dimensional Overseer, we can use the painting world more.

"For CW shaking the Astral World—considering he was heavily weakened (IIRC, inhabiting Antigonus's body)—I believe Klein, MGOD, and Adam, should be on par with him.

I agree.

Personally I am thinking for the Pillars: 1-C, possibly 1-A. Bare minimum Low 2-C.

The other Above The Sequence are definitely not Pillar level so I wouldn’t give them 1-A imo as I doubt they’d be able to affect the entire Astral World. So just 1-C. (As you said this position should be clearer when we get more info regarding High-Dimensional Overseer and the like). And obviously Solar System minimum, at least in terms of DC.

Sequence 0’s are a bit iffy because they are definitely weaker. MTOD would’ve been able to kill Klein inside of Sefirah Castle if he divined her, while Eternal Blazing Sun only damaged him. So 1-C is up for debate. But they should at least scale to Ankewelt, so Low 1-C/Low 2-C is good. And minimum I’d put Planetary, going about with Sequence 0: Tyrant’s description (Also anyone in this level and above should scale to Speed of Light minimum). You can argue Star level because of Klein but even then it was stated that The Fool is a glass canon among Sequence 0’s.

Angels should at least be scaling to Sequence 2 Klein who wished a town into existence. I wouldn’t give them any sort of Astral World scaling as even KoKoA Klein was only able to graft a bit of it. And Planeswalkers can only really use it to travel and nothing else. Also I obviously wouldn’t give them any sort of Sefirah Castle scaling as even KoA Amon could only access it by cheating Klein in the real world. Klein was immune to Quill of Alzuhod’s/0-08 (Sequence 1) effects while in Sefirah Castle and so on. They also shouldn’t scale to Ankewelt’s creation feat. Also their Mythical Creature forms are directly stated to not be observable not due to quantitative values like dimensions and instead more abstract ones, so they wouldn’t fit for 4D. Maybe there’s a feat I’m missing that gives them higher dimensionality but I can’t recall it.

Keep in mind I’m only at chapter 500+ of COI so if there’s any info I’m missing, do tell. Although try not to spoil.

LOTM_Historian · Aug 18, 2024

Super_Nova said:
Personally I am thinking for the Pillars: 1-C, possibly 1-A. Bare minimum Low 2-C.

I have them at 1-A, and I can't see any way they could be below 1-C, considering full Pillars and Great Old Ones should have merged with their Sefirot.

Super_Nova said:
The other Above The Sequence are definitely not Pillar level so I wouldn’t give them 1-A imo as I doubt they’d be able to affect the entire Astral World. So just 1-C. (As you said this position should be clearer when we get more info regarding High-Dimensional Overseer and the like). And obviously Solar System minimum, at least in terms of DC.

Most of the Great Old Ones should be merged with their own Sefirots, which I believe should scale to at least 1-C, assuming they are equivalent to Sefirah Castle. As for hax, I would comfortably place them all at 1-A, considering they represent aspects of the universe and govern universal independent concepts like concepts of space and time. Additionally, you might scale them based on feats like Adam's ability to illuminate the entire Astral World.

Super_Nova said:
Sequence 0’s are a bit iffy because they are definitely weaker. MTOD would’ve been able to kill Klein inside of Sefirah Castle if he divined her, while Eternal Blazing Sun only damaged him. So 1-C is up for debate. But they should at least scale to Ankewelt, so Low 1-C/Low 2-C is good. And minimum I’d put Planetary, going about with Sequence 0: Tyrant’s description (Also anyone in this level and above should scale to Speed of Light minimum). You can argue Star level because of Klein but even then it was stated that The Fool is a glass canon among Sequence 0’s.

Being able to affect Sefirah Castle to that extent should automatically qualify all Sequence 0s as 1-C. The Eternal Blazing Sun was able to shake Sefirah Castle, a 6D infinite realm.

Super_Nova said:
Angels should at least be scaling to Sequence 2 Klein who wished a town into existence. I wouldn’t give them any sort of Astral World scaling as even KoKoA Klein was only able to graft a bit of it.

I believe the hax of all Angels and higher should at least scale to the Astral World (which I consider 1-A), as they can influence the Astral World and shatter Beyonder characteristics, which are projections of the Astral World and parts of the Original Creator. AP and Durability wise you can debate them a lot lower.

Super_Nova said:
And Planeswalkers can only really use it to travel and nothing else. Also I obviously wouldn’t give them any sort of Sefirah Castle scaling as even KoA Amon could only access it by cheating Klein in the real world. Klein was immune to Quill of Alzuhod’s/0-08 (Sequence 1) effects while in Sefirah Castle and so on. They also shouldn’t scale to Ankewelt’s creation feat. Also their Mythical Creature forms are directly stated to not be observable not due to quantitative values like dimensions and instead more abstract ones, so they wouldn’t fit for 4D. Maybe there’s a feat I’m missing that gives them higher dimensionality but I can’t recall it.

I don't view mythical creature forms as physically higher-dimensional, but I can see them as metaphysically higher. In LOTM, the higher you ascend in dimensionality or layers, the more abstract you become. Since mythical creature forms can't be described through dimensions and possess abstract qualities (which I believe represent higher dimensionality in LOTM), we could consider them metaphysically higher beings. However, I'm uncertain if this qualifies them for a specific tier in the system.

By the way, I'm curious about where you scale the hax for each sequence. From my understanding, the vast majority of LOTM characters should qualify for higher-dimensional / layer smurf hax.

And minimum I’d put Planetary, going about with Sequence 0: Tyrant’s description (Also anyone in this level and above should scale to Speed of Light minimum). You can argue Star level because of Klein but even then it was stated that The Fool is a glass canon among Sequence 0’s.

I believe that even Demi-gods should have FTL combat and reaction speed, as referenced at the bottom of the cosmology blog. Some argue that Tyrant's ability to transform into light or lightning indicates that only Sequence 0 and higher can achieve the speed of light. However, I strongly disagree. This ability seems more focused on matter transformation/matter manipulation than actual speed, especially considering the significant difference in speed between lightning and light.

UnknownDaf · Aug 18, 2024

Most of the stuff seems pretty good. Definitely unsure about the blue avenger

. Also feels like a lot of unnecessary yap, overall nothing too disagreeable in my eyes.

Though I could see how others might view some stuff as vague, and I wouldn’t be too surprised if someone more knowledgeable could refute this, 1-A stuff seemed pretty solid tho

Definitely atleast higher dimensional scaling

LOTM_Historian · Aug 18, 2024

Bomboopengin said:
I agree on most points regarding such as OC and Angels hax. However I think scaling Blue Avenger to 4D would not be accurate as the origins of it are not fully explained yet. Also, the "extradimensional" in this context doesn't seem to be referring to 4D just because the ship mostly behaves like a 3D object.

Regarding the Blue Avenger, it seems likely that the extradimensional elements are an extension of the mirror world, though this hasn't been confirmed yet.

Super_Nova · Aug 18, 2024

LOTM_Historian said:
I don't view mythical creature forms as physically higher-dimensional, but I can see them as metaphysically higher. In LOTM, the higher you ascend in dimensionality or layers, the more abstract you become. Since mythical creature forms can't be described through dimensions and possess abstract qualities (which I believe represent higher dimensionality in LOTM), we could consider them metaphysically higher beings. However, I'm uncertain if this qualifies them for a specific tier in the system.

By the way, I'm curious about where you scale the hax for each sequence. From my understanding, the vast majority of LOTM characters should qualify for higher-dimensional / layer smurf hax.

It’s been literally stated that Mythical Creature hax ignore dimensionality completely and are purely conceptual. So I’d say they can affect any character below 1-A, assuming that they do not have any sort of conceptual hax. (They’re still getting clapped by a character that strong, but at least they can affect them with passive corruption.)

Also the reasoning why I give the Pillars possibly 1-A is because they can affect the entire astral world, which literally means they affected all concepts in existence. Because I don’t truly believe affecting 1 or 2 concepts like how angels do is enough to grant this tier. And it’s even more obvious when you realize that even these abilities have tiers in and of themselves. Just look at Attendant of Mysteries vs The Fool. There’s a clear difference in Grafting when comparing Sequence 1 vs 0.

Also something else. I am still wondering if Sequence 0’s can be affected by physical attacks. Because even the supernova that “killed” Amon was purely conceptual as we stated earlier, and so were all the other attacks that Klein used. So I think it might even be possible that Amon could’ve survived a real supernova but only died here because Klein’s was literally just conceptual. Anyways, I want to hear your thoughts here as I am not 100% sure myself.

LOTM_Historian · Aug 18, 2024

Super_Nova said:
It’s been literally stated that Mythical Creature hax ignore dimensionality completely and are purely conceptual. So I’d say they can affect any character below 1-A, assuming that they do not have any sort of conceptual hax. (They’re still getting clapped by a character that strong, but at least they can affect them with passive corruption.)

Ya, it says they can't be described by dimensionality and quantitative terms similar to it. It's said to describe them you have to use concepts. Humans lack the ability to discern it. I suppose you could say their corruption can influence any character defined by quantitative concepts like dimensions, essentially affecting anyone below 1-A. I believe their metaphysical form is distinct from their physical form.

Super_Nova said:
Also the reasoning why I give the Pillars possibly 1-A is because they can affect the entire astral world, which literally means they affected all concepts in existence. Because I don’t truly believe affecting 1 or 2 concepts like how angels do is enough to grant this tier. And it’s even more obvious when you realize that even these abilities have tiers in and of themselves. Just look at Attendant of Mysteries vs The Fool. There’s a clear difference in Grafting when comparing Sequence 1 vs 0.

Gods should qualify for 1-A AP/Hax, as they embody their respective concepts. For instance, Sequence 0 for Door embodies/controls the concept of space, and Sequence 0 for Error embodies the concept of time. As Ultima mentioned, being the embodiment or having control over these concepts should place them at 1-A.

Regarding Angels, they should also be considered for 1-A AP and hax, as they can shatter Beyonder Characteristics, which are projections of concepts from the Astral World and parts of the Original Creator. (Uniquenesses are also Beyonder Characteristics, this detail isn't directly relevant to the argument for Angels being 1-A)

Super_Nova said:
Also something else. I am still wondering if Sequence 0’s can be affected by physical attacks. Because even the supernova that “killed” Amon was purely conceptual as we stated earlier, and so were all the other attacks that Klein used. So I think it might even be possible that Amon could’ve survived a real supernova but only died here because Klein’s was literally just conceptual. Anyways, I want to hear your thoughts here as I am not 100% sure myself.

Sequence 0's can be physically affected, but this shouldn't disqualify them from 1-A AP or hax, given their embodiment of the universal, independent concepts of space or time, as mentioned earlier.

Regarding Amon, while the supernova that killed him was conceptual, it's unclear whether he could survive a real one, especially since Klein mentioned that his own physical body wouldn't withstand a real star. However, their Beyonder Characteristics and Uniquenesses remain impervious to physical attacks due to the law of Beyonder Characteristic indestructibility.

Super_Nova · Aug 19, 2024

LOTM_Historian said:
Gods should qualify for 1-A AP/Hax, as they embody their respective concepts. For instance, Sequence 0 for Door embodies/controls the concept of space, and Sequence 0 for Error embodies the concept of time. As Ultima mentioned, being the embodiment or having control over these concepts should place them at 1-A.

Regarding Angels, they should also be considered for 1-A AP and hax, as they can shatter Beyonder Characteristics, which are projections of concepts from the Astral World and parts of the Original Creator. (Uniquenesses are also Beyonder Characteristics, this detail isn't directly relevant to the argument for Angels being 1-A)

Sequence 0's can be physically affected, but this shouldn't disqualify them from 1-A AP or hax, given their embodiment of the universal, independent concepts of space or time, as mentioned earlier.

Honestly I do find 1-A convincing. The thing is that the Astral Realm is a conceptual place, which would include the concept of space, time etc. And to assume that one can affect such a place by simply having more spatial dimensions would be baffling to say the least. Not to mention that it is very consistent. The Sequence 0’s are literally the concepts of their pathway like how Amon is (was) literally the concept of time. So to say you can reach him by adding more temporal dimensions and whatnot seems rather unconvincing imo.

Also I do not think Angels should be 1-A in any way. The reason why I give Sequence 0’s 1-A is due to the fact that they are purely conceptual and qualitatively superior to space, but not because they can affect these concepts. And there’s a clear distinction made between Angels and Deities, in that they become conceptualized only at Sequence 0.

For example, I’d say Dual Sequence 0 Amon is 1-A, not because he can affect the concept of time, but because he is that concept itself. While Sequence 1 Amon only had control over the concept, he was not the concept itself.

LOTM_Historian · Aug 20, 2024

Super_Nova said:
Honestly I do find 1-A convincing. The thing is that the Astral Realm is a conceptual place, which would include the concept of space, time etc. And to assume that one can affect such a place by simply having more spatial dimensions would be baffling to say the least. Not to mention that it is very consistent. The Sequence 0’s are literally the concepts of their pathway like how Amon is (was) literally the concept of time. So to say you can reach him by adding more temporal dimensions and whatnot seems rather unconvincing imo.

I'm glad we're on the same page. Honestly, I find 1-A pretty convincing too.

Super_Nova said:
Also I do not think Angels should be 1-A in any way. The reason why I give Sequence 0’s 1-A is due to the fact that they are purely conceptual and qualitatively superior to space, but not because they can affect these concepts. And there’s a clear distinction made between Angels and Deities, in that they become conceptualized only at Sequence 0.

For example, I’d say Dual Sequence 0 Amon is 1-A, not because he can affect the concept of time, but because he is that concept itself. While Sequence 1 Amon only had control over the concept, he was not the concept itself.

The main argument for Angels having 1-A hax lies in feats such as Sequence 1+ Klein grafting Hornacis into the Astral World. However, regarding their attack potency, one could point to Beyonder characteristics, which Angels and higher beings can shatter. Since these characteristics are projections from the Astral World and are fragments of the Original Creator, it's possible to argue that they scale to the level of the Astral World or the Original Creator. However, this argument isn't as compelling as the 1-A hax that directly affects the Astral World.

UnknownDaf · Aug 22, 2024

Ultima_Reality · Aug 22, 2024

Honestly I generally don't trust concept-talk qualifying for the 1-A range when it comes to anything other than transcending them (Because this wiki's account of "concept" isn't what the word actually means. Whoops). But, it seems that, in this case, the Authorities are:

The very definitions of things
The source of things (e.g. The Authority of Death is the source of all death, the Authority of Time is the source of all time, etc)
Things residing in a higher realm of existence

From the third, I infer that Authorities are independent of whatever it is that comes from them, such that the Authority of Time for instance subsists independently of all temporal things, yeah? If there are any other scans on this matter, do send them. But if that be the case, I don't have an issue with those being Low 1-A at minimum, given it embraces all concepts in the universe and explicitly includes that of time. Could arguably be 1-A, if the very "substance" (So to speak) of the Authorities encompasses the things sourced from them while simultaneously being irreducible to those things; would pretty much be textbook "Power that encompasses all composite things but is not divisible into them."

The Original Creator seems like he'd be on the same level, regardless of what the Astral Plane is rated at.

The Spirit World being Low 1-C seems fine. That said, Sefirah Castle being 1-C is a bit suspicious. It's described as "above" the Spirit World, but that's never clarified as meaning superiority, and given the statements describing it as fixed an infinite height above the Spirit World, it seems the "above"ness is just literal. The gray fog being described as "a symbolic object" also doesn't help much with regards to the "It's made up of the history of the Spirit World."

Yasuda_144 · Aug 22, 2024

I'm actually curious as to the full argument for independent concepts of space of time being Low 1-A.

Like, I kinda get the gist of it but I don't quite remember the full nuances of it.

LOTM_Historian · Aug 22, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
From the third, I infer that Authorities are independent of whatever it is that comes from them, such that the Authority of Time for instance subsists independently of all temporal things, yeah? If there are any other scans on this matter, do send them. But if that be the case, I don't have an issue with those being Low 1-A at minimum, given it embraces all concepts in the universe and explicitly includes that of time. Could arguably be 1-A, if the very "substance" (So to speak) of the Authorities encompasses the things sourced from them while simultaneously being irreducible to those things; would pretty much be textbook "Power that encompasses all composite things but is not divisible into them."

First, let me provide some context. In Lord of the Mysteries, Beyonder characteristics (which uniquenesses also are) are projections of concepts in the Astral World.

When a God dies (being the embodiment of concept) their authority doesn't disappear. This is because Beyonder characteristics and the corresponding authority are indestructible, demonstrating that they subsist independently of what they represent. Meaning that even if you destroy what they represent, they will not be affected. Additionally, their indestructibility further highlights their irreducibility. I provided examples of them remaining unchanged and unaffected by alternations in the things they represent as shown in the blog:

Each god is both the embodiment and the source of their corresponding concepts. The Outer Deities directly represent certain aspects of the universe. Furthermore, at the level of a God, the powers of beyonders become "conceptualized." After Amon ascended to the status of a God within the Door and Error pathway, he was able influence everything related to the concept of a door and became the embodiment of all errors. Additionally, he could exert similar influence over his authority or concept of time by making time jump forward. The Mother Goddess of Depravity represents all femininity in the entire universe. When she lost her Sefirot, it impacted the birth of life and feminist powers throughout the universe. Amon's true god conceptual form includes concepts such as fate, time, doors, bugs and more. Klein is able to reassemble or combine abstract concepts and use abilities like "Grafting" which is able to directly act on concepts themselves. Other abilities include being able to cause the concept of "death" itself to dissipate, distorting the concept of distance and "fooling" concepts such as time. Moreover, it is stated that the power of the gods are on the level of concepts.

To become a True God and gain complete authority over their pathway and its associated concepts, Beyonders must accommodate a Uniqueness. As the name implies, a Uniqueness is singular, meaning that at any given time, there can only be one Uniqueness for each Pathway. These Uniquenesses are abstract items or concepts. Once a God has accommodated a Uniqueness, they can repeatedly alter its corresponding concepts and symbols.

Bomboopengin · Aug 23, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Honestly I generally don't trust concept-talk qualifying for the 1-A range when it comes to anything other than transcending them (Because this wiki's account of "concept" isn't what the word actually means. Whoops). But, it seems that, in this case, the Authorities are:

The very definitions of things

The source of things (e.g. The Authority of Death is the source of all death, the Authority of Time is the source of all time, etc)

Things residing in a higher realm of existence

From the third, I infer that Authorities are independent of whatever it is that comes from them, such that the Authority of Time for instance subsists independently of all temporal things, yeah? If there are any other scans on this matter, do send them. But if that be the case, I don't have an issue with those being Low 1-A at minimum, given it embraces all concepts in the universe and explicitly includes that of time. Could arguably be 1-A, if the very "substance" (So to speak) of the Authorities encompasses the things sourced from them while simultaneously being irreducible to those things; would pretty much be textbook "Power that encompasses all composite things but is not divisible into them."

Does this mean that you are okay with Lord of the Mysteries being low 1-A and just need further proof regarding Authorities not actually being reducible to the lower/lesser forms of their corresponding symbolisms in order to scale them to 1-A?

Ultima_Reality said:
The Original Creator seems like he'd be on the same level, regardless of what the Astral Plane is rated at.

I am confused with where do u scale the Original Creator? Do u say regardless of the Astral World due to the transduality of the Original Creator?

Ultima_Reality said:
The Spirit World being Low 1-C seems fine. That said, Sefirah Castle being 1-C is a bit suspicious. It's described as "above" the Spirit World, but that's never clarified as meaning superiority, and given the statements describing it as fixed an infinite height above the Spirit World, it seems the "above"ness is just literal. The gray fog being described as "a symbolic object" also doesn't help much with regards to the "It's made up of the history of the Spirit World."

Do you mean that Sefirah Castle might scale to the same level as the Spirit World is, which is Low 1-C. If that is the case, would Eternal Blazing Sun being able to shake and damage Sefirah Castle scale his AP to at least low 1-C?

Ultima_Reality · Aug 23, 2024

Yasuda_144 said:
I'm actually curious as to the full argument for independent concepts of space of time being Low 1-A.

Like, I kinda get the gist of it but I don't quite remember the full nuances of it.

Basically the fact that this would entail them being the very definition of space/time, which, not being constrained to particular spatiotemporal things (Because it subsists ontologically apart from them), ipso facto includes spacetime structures of arbitrary size, since they'd all fall under the general definition of space/time.

LOTM_Historian said:
When a God dies (being the embodiment of concept) their authority doesn't disappear. This is because Beyonder characteristics and the corresponding authority are indestructible,

Hm. It says there that the Beyonder characteristics and their corresponding authorities are not completely lost by the death of the god embodying them, which is a very weird qualifier to make if the authorities are 100% unaffected. Is there more context to that?

Bomboopengin said:
Does this mean that you are okay with Lord of the Mysteries being low 1-A and just need further proof regarding Authorities not actually being reducible to the lower/lesser forms of their corresponding symbolisms in order to scale them to 1-A?

No, it's that the independence/higher existence of the concepts + Their nature as source of the particularized things bearing their nature is at minimum Low 1-A, and might be 1-A depending on how that's cashed out with the Tiering System.

Bomboopengin said:
I am confused with where do u scale the Original Creator? Do u say regardless of the Astral World due to the transduality of the Original Creator?

I mean that it'd scale to the same level as the Astral Plane regardless of whether the latter ends up, from the looks of it.

Bomboopengin said:
Do you mean that Sefirah Castle might scale to the same level as the Spirit World is, which is Low 1-C. If that is the case, would Eternal Blazing Sun being able to shake and damage Sefirah Castle scale his AP to at least low 1-C?

Yes to both.

LOTM_Historian · Aug 23, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Hm. It says there that the Beyonder characteristics and their corresponding authorities are not completely lost by the death of the god embodying them, which is a very weird qualifier to make if the authorities are 100% unaffected. Is there more context to that?

The phrase "not completely lost" implies that someone else must inherit the Beyonder characteristics to wield the authority over death. The authority and Beyonder characteristics of death still persist even when not actively controlled by anyone. In fact, the Law of Beyonder Characteristic Indestructibility explicitly states that characteristics can never be destroyed or reduced. Instead, they are always transferred from one bearer to the next. (chapter 207)

Super_Nova · Aug 23, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Hm. It says there that the Beyonder characteristics and their corresponding authorities are not completely lost by the death of the god embodying them, which is a very weird qualifier to make if the authorities are 100% unaffected. Is there more context to that?

The Hidden Sage here refers to the Uniqueness of the Hermit Pathway. (A Uniqueness is basically just a beyonder characteristic, but for Sequence 0) In the story, for some currently unknown reason, it has achieved a sort of sentience. Although this isn’t unexpected as awareness has been observed in other Uniquenesses like the Wheel of Fortune and Justiciar Pathways.

Basically what they are saying here, is that they want to use the beyonder characteristics and uniqueness of Death (here in reference to Salinger, the Sequence 0 of the Death Pathway who also goes simply by the moniker “Death”) and re-create whatever has happened to the Hidden Sage, by trying to give it a sort of sentience. Which they succeeded in doing, and created “Artificial Death”.

After that, they would try to revive Salinger/Death using this Artificial Death, because higher sequences, especially Sequence 0s and those of the Death Pathway are much more easily capable of being revived. This is especially true when you combine their old characteristics (which is why the scan specifies Salinger/Death’s corresponding characteristics). Although, this plan was interrupted last minute by the Evernight Goddess.

Also, it would make no sense for a characteristic to ever be lost as that has never happened to date in the series and this is simply due to the Law of Beyonder Characteristic Indestructibility (which the guy above me mentioned). This is even considering the multiple Sequence 0’s and Great Old Ones that have perished.

What happens when one becomes a certain Sequence is that they combine with their corresponding beyonder characteristic (or Uniqueness in the case of Sequence 0). For Sequence 0’s, this also includes becoming the embodiment of a corresponding concept. After they perish, that concept status is effectively “returned” to the characteristics and uniqueness that they leave after death. And as it specifies in the same scan, without Salinger being alive, Death is simply a concept.

Bomboopengin · Aug 24, 2024

Attendent_of_Mysteries · Aug 25, 2024

LOTM_Historian · Aug 25, 2024

Attendent_of_Mysteries · Aug 26, 2024

LOTM_Historian said:
The phrase "not completely lost" implies that someone else must inherit the Beyonder characteristics to wield the authority over death. The authority and Beyonder characteristics of death still persist even when not actively controlled by anyone. In fact, the Law of Beyonder Characteristic Indestructibility explicitly states that characteristics can never be destroyed or reduced. Instead, they are always transferred from one bearer to the next. (chapter 207)

More to this

The Authority and beyonder characteristics are indestructible and even after the death of the god who embodies said authority/concept, the Authority/concepts returns to the astral world through the beyonder characteristics (since BC are projections of concepts in Astral world). The beyonder characteristics are more akin to a key that is required to wield or embody concepts. so the death of the wielder of the authority doesn't affect the concept itself and can be wielded/embodied again once somebody inherits the beyonder characteristics.

Upgrading Lord of the Mysteries

?????????

?????????

?????????

Similar threads