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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Phsccarvalho said:
Making that sandbox, I wondered.

Does the SSJ4 have any multipliers? I practically don't see anything about GT on this wiki.
Click to expand...
Golden Oozaru = SSJ1(50x) + Oozaru(10x) = 500x, SSJ4 would obviously upscale from that, i heard that there is more, but i don't remember details
 
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Phsccarvalho said:
Making that sandbox, I wondered.

Does the SSJ4 have any multipliers? I practically don't see anything about GT on this wiki.
Click to expand...
None that are known, explicitly. The common hypothesis in the fandom, though, is 500x or 4000x base. As it’s the power of “SSJ and Oozaru” to create the Golden Oozaru (so 10x from Oozaru and 50x from SSJ), and from the Dub it was stated to be “SSJ3” as well as Oozaru, so 400x combined with x10. But those are mere speculations, and honestly run counter to what we see.

Goku at SSJ3 was beneath SSJ Baby Vegeta. Baby Vegeta turned into a mutated SSJ2, (so at least 2x his prior SSJ power, and that means it physically can’t be lesser than double SSJ3’s, and Baby’s final form prior to the Oozaru is compared to SSJ3, so 4x even that). However, the SSJ3 line is a dubism, and contradicts what we know about GT Vegeta (he caps at SSJ2), as well as is totally inconsistent with what we know about Golden Oozaru in general.

The best approach would be making a lowball multiplier, like SSG. In this instance, taking the SSJ3 start level Goku was at, and multiplying it by the necessary values to get where Super Baby 2 was at.

(So 400 x 400, or 160,000), but again, that’d still be nothing but speculation.
 
Super Baby 2 being=SSJ3 comes from I think Perfect Files I think.

Also it should be noted that SSJ4 is not just a multiplier, but it's also states to be a Limit Break and a Potential Unlock in the guides, so it's not just Goku's Base plus whatever the Multiplier for SSJ4 is.
 
First time here and I have a question.

So BOG Goku and every character that scales to him is 2-C Low multiversal.

Low Multi - Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums (using stc for short) ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

So BOG Goku pre absorption of God in base is 3 stc in Low multi. Then wouldn't the current characters be millions of times into 2-B Multiversal ?

Multi - Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy larger multiverses which comprise from 1001 to any higher finite amount of separate space-time continuums.

Goku post absorption and with SS3 is 400x higher so 400x3 and that's about 1200 STC's. Then it just keeps adding in finite numbers.

I dunno if this has been discussed before but I doubt it hasn't crossed anyone's mind.
 
57Dev said:
First time here and I have a question.

So BOG Goku and every character that scales to him is 2-C Low multiversal.

Low Multi - Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums (using stc for short) ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

So BOG Goku pre absorption of God in base is 3 stc in Low multi. Then wouldn't the current characters be millions of times into 2-B Multiversal ?

Multi - Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy larger multiverses which comprise from 1001 to any higher finite amount of separate space-time continuums.

Goku post absorption and with SS3 is 400x higher so 400x3 and that's about 1200 STC's. Then it just keeps adding in finite numbers.

I dunno if this has been discussed before but I doubt it hasn't crossed anyone's mind.
Click to expand...
They don't allow multipliers to jump tiers from tier 2, due to the distance between between universes being unknown or unquantifiable
 
Need input here, to finish up the scaling thread

vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball Kaioken Validity

Okay, this is a simple thread to officially adopt whether we use kaioken hypothetical multipliers as linear as the normal ones or not In this thread , apparently it was decided to not use kaioken multipliers that were not shown having a stated power level. This makes no sense to me, as it...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
57Dev said:
First time here and I have a question.

So BOG Goku and every character that scales to him is 2-C Low multiversal.

Low Multi - Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums (using stc for short) ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

So BOG Goku pre absorption of God in base is 3 stc in Low multi. Then wouldn't the current characters be millions of times into 2-B Multiversal ?

Multi - Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy larger multiverses which comprise from 1001 to any higher finite amount of separate space-time continuums.

Goku post absorption and with SS3 is 400x higher so 400x3 and that's about 1200 STC's. Then it just keeps adding in finite numbers.

I dunno if this has been discussed before but I doubt it hasn't crossed anyone's mind.
Click to expand...
The tiering system doesn't allow multipliers for Tier 2 ranges (Note 1)

If this rule didn't exist then yes everyone would be 2-B
 
Yes, but that's limited to whatever number of universes he's in.

So say, he fights someone who scales to 4 universe, it doesn't matter how millions of times stronger he is, he's getting one shotted.
 
57Dev said:
Oh okay. But even then he would still be millions of times stronger even though still capped in 2-C ?
Click to expand...
That's because the distance is unknown between universes.

This doesn't mean the multipliers don't matter, as Goku could fight Superman who is also equal to 3 universes, but since Goku can destroy 3 universes over a million times he can one-shot him
 
I haven't been keeping up with Hit's Time Skip tomfoolery, but now that I'm hearing about the frustrastration it causes, I'm curious.

Presuming it has so inconsistent/self-contradictory/poorly designed as to be indecipherable:

What are the ways it could function, why could each of those be the way, & why do they each fail as a means?
 
Imaginym said:
I haven't been keeping up with Hit's Time Skip tomfoolery, but now that I'm hearing about the frustrastration it causes, I'm curious.

Presuming it has so inconsistent/self-contradictory/poorly designed as to be indecipherable:

What are the ways it could function, why could each of those be the way, & why do they each fail as a means?
Click to expand...
There’s three separate main abilities that Time Skip has to accomplish for the plot to function as we see happen in the Anime.

Time Stop, Time Travel (Skip), and Temporal Storage.

The first one is pretty self explanatory. Plenty of characters, WoG, Hit himself, and visual showings very clearly illustrate that Time Skip is a Time Stop. However, this is directly contradictory to the explanation of his powers we get from Vados and regurgitated by Whis. According to them, Hit is using minor Time Travel and Temporal Storage. And they physically cannot be wrong, otherwise other moments don’t make sense due the abilities it grants. (Goku V Hit 2, Tides of Time as used in the ToP, etc.) However, they also can’t be right due to most PROMINENTLY Hit V Jiren, in which Vados explains by using Time Skip on solely Jiren he has stopped him in Time. This is an INTEGRAL plot moment.

Time Skip/Travel. This seems fairly obvious at first—Hit travels into the future by .Blank-Seconds. This makes total sense in the surface level, and is the basis of several moments. How Goku is able to fight Hit in combat is based on taking the counterattacking actions to punish Hit for moving as predicted within that Skipped frame of time. Like if imagine if King Crimson was tangible, and when going for a predictable strike from behind he got decked in the schnoz because I turned around and hit before/in the midst of the two moments. However, this runs counter to everything we see, hear, and is explained by Hit and others. It’s also undeniable at specific instances he has stopped time. And the time stopping also physically can’t be wrong, because certain plot reliant moments don’t make sense if it doesn’t operate this way. (Goku V Hit 1, Hit’s Assassination, Hit V Jiren).

Lastly is Temporal Storage (AKA Tides of Time). According to Whis and Vados, when Hit “skips” Time, he is able to store and keep it for his own personal use for his own dimension. This dimension manifests as a controllable Parallel World, that layers/grafts onto our own (seemingly), and grants Hit incredible capacity. This explanation is the reason why he has specific plot relevant abilities—Phasing, energy doppelgängers, illusions, intangible attacks, etc. So it PHYSICALLY cannot be wrong. However, it’s also contradictory, since—Again—Hit’s power must also be Tims Stop. Furthermore, while we’ve tried to logic out the ability, you can’t. Attempting to explain that Hit uses the Dimension for Time Skip in itself is incorrect, because it’s the reverse—Hit Skips time independent of the dimension, and then stores it. It also runs contradictory to explicit dialogue, where Hit says he never learned past basic Time Skip because he never needed to. And, again, they NEED to be correct for the plot to function (Goku V Hit 2, Hit V Dyspo, Hit V Jiren).

Furthermore, how it even relates to Time Skip is contradictory. When introduced, the Times of Time is wholly separated from Time Skip. Goku calls out how it’s different, Hit does, and Vados only ever claims that Time Skip is just a tangential means of creating that Dimension. It’s supposed to be its own thing. However, in the Tournament of Power, the Tides of Time is consistently called Time Skip. By Hit, Dyspo, Jiren—Even the Whis explanation is moments after Jiren literally calls it Time Skip, clearly trying to make what Hit is doing make sense to the audience.

These explanations all run either contradictory, create plot holes, and inconsistencies. More impressively, Time Skip is inconsistent even in singular use cases. For example, at one point Hit uses Time Skip as a Time Skip, which allows Goku to move and react to being throttled. However, it also acts as a Time Stop, as Hit was able to take DOZENS of actions to beat on Goku. However, it acts as a Skip in this moment because Hit specifically notes it is identical to his previous attack, but longer, (that attack being a Skip) but it’s also a Stop because Goku also doesn’t show any visible physical alteration (he’s in his stance as if it never happened), as if it was truly a mid-Za Warudo barrage.

Etc. Etc. It literally just doesn’t line up in any way because too many cooks were in the kitchen. You can get a much deeper read into all the gritty details over the three threads, though.
 
Last edited:
RedReaper said:
There’s three separate main abilities that Time Skip has to accomplish for the plot to function as we see happen in the Anime.

Time Stop, Time Travel (Skip), and Temporal Storage.

The first one is pretty self explanatory. Plenty of characters, WoG, Hit himself, and visual showings very clearly illustrate that Time Skip is a Time Stop. However, this is directly contradictory to the explanation of his powers we get from Vados and regurgitated by Whis. According to them, Hit is using minor Time Travel and Temporal Storage. And they physically cannot be wrong, otherwise other moments don’t make sense. (Goku V Hit 2, Tides of Time as used in the ToP, etc.) Most PROMINENTLY being Hit V Jiren, in which Vados explains by using Time Skip on solely Jiren he has stopped him in Time. This is an INTEGRAL plot moment.

Time Skip/Travel. This seems fairly obvious at first—Hit travels into the future by .Blank-Seconds. This makes total sense in the surface level, and is the basis of several moments. How Goku is able to fight Hit in combat is based on taking the counterattacking actions to punish Hit for moving as predicted within that Skipped frame of time. Like if imagine if King Crimson was tangible, and when going for a predictable strike from behind he got decked in the schnoz because I turned around and hit before/in the midst of the two moments. However, this runs counter to everything we see, hear, and is explained by Hit and others. It’s also undeniable at specific instances he has stopped time. And the time stopping also physically can’t be wrong, because certain plot reliant moments don’t make sense if it doesn’t operate this way. (Goku V Hit 1, Hit’s Assassination, Hit V Jiren).

Lastly is Temporal Storage (AKA Tides of Time). According to Whis and Vados, when Hit “skips” Time, he is able to store and keep it for his own personal use for his own dimension. This dimension manifests as a controllable Parallel World, that layers/grafts onto our own (seemingly), and grants Hit incredible capacity. This explanation is the reason why he has specific plot relevant abilities—Phasing, energy doppelgängers, illusions, intangible attacks, etc. So it PHYSICALLY cannot be wrong. However, it’s also contradictory, since—Again—Hit’s power must also be Tims Stop. Furthermore, while we’ve tried to logic out the ability, you can’t. Attempting to explain that Hit uses the Dimension for Time Skip in itself is incorrect, because it’s the reverse—Hit Skips time independent of the dimension, and then stores it. It also runs contradictory to explicit dialogue, where Hit says he never learned past basic Time Skip because he never needed to. And, again, they NEED to be correct for the plot to function (Goku V Hit 2, Hit V Dyspo, Hit V Jiren).

Furthermore, how it even relates to Time Skip is contradictory. When introduced, the Times of Time is wholly separated from Time Skip. Goku calls out how it’s different, Hit does, and Vados only ever claims that Time Skip is just a tangential means of creating that Dimension. It’s supposed to be its own thing. However, in the Tournament of Power, the Tides of Time is consistently called Time Skip. By Hit, Dyspo, Jiren—Even the Whis explanation is moments after Jiren literally calls it Time Skip, clearly trying to make what Hit is doing make sense to the audience.

These explanations all run either contradictory, create plot holes, and inconsistencies. More impressively, Time Skip is inconsistent even in singular use cases. For example, at one point Hit uses Time Skip as a Time Skip, which allows Goku to move and react to being throttled. However, it also acts as a Time Stop, as Hit was able to take DOZENS of actions to beat on Goku. However, it acts as a Skip in this moment because Hit specifically notes it is identical to his previous attack, but longer, (that attack being a Skip) but it’s also a Stop because Goku also doesn’t show any visible physical alteration (he’s in his stance as if it never happened), as if it was truly a mid-Za Warudo barrage.

Etc. Etc. It literally just doesn’t line up in any way because too many cooks were in the kitchen. You can get a much deeper read into all the gritty details over the three threads, though.
Click to expand...
Very interesting breakdown! Thank you very much!

Has there been any reconcilliation for this clustertruck of abilities so far on VSBW?
 
Imaginym said:
Very interesting breakdown! Thank you very much!

Has there been any reconcilliation for this clustertruck of abilities so far on VSBW?
Click to expand...
Not quite. We’re still working on it in a dying final thread. My current opinion on it is it’s irreconcilable, at least in a logical way of explaining “A causing B, thus C,” and as such we should index all abilities and resistances as they appear and put a note for this decision (and any necessary compromises, like outlier immeasurable, wonkiness of resistance, etc.)

That, OR, we conclude that Hit has improved the range of the Time Skip’s abilities over time throughout the Anime (such as the final Time Skip being a Time Freeze in Goku V Hit 1, considering the Tides of Time an extension of Time Skip, etc.) Like I suggested in Thread 2/Null is currently suggesting in Thread 3.
 
RedReaper said:
Not quite. We’re still working on it in a dying final thread. My current opinion on it is it’s irreconcilable, at least in a logical way of explaining “A causing B, thus C,” and as such we should index all abilities and resistances as they appear and put a note for this decision (and any necessary compromises, like outlier immeasurable, wonkiness of resistance, etc.)

That, OR, we conclude that Hit has improved the range of the Time Skip’s abilities over time throughout the Anime (such as the final Time Skip being a Time Freeze in Goku V Hit 1, considering the Tides of Time an extension of Time Skip, etc.) Like I suggested in Thread 2/Null is currently suggesting in Thread 3.
Click to expand...
or we do option 3, make all of the resistances and what not a "possible" rating while putting notes explaining how nonsensical the Time Skip truly is
 
who-was-this-random-guy-that-popped-up-at-the-end-of-the-v0-tqwlue8e272d1.jpeg
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
What are the arguments for Kid Buu being stronger than Buuhan in the manga?
Click to expand...
Buuhan is unreliable as Toriyama himself said that not even Buu know his own power, plus Buutenks said that he's the strongest Majin to ever exist in also the future or even that he can beat Vegito to just add more unreliability.

Kid Buu toying with SSJ3 Goku and not being serious with him, proving them wrong.

All the Toriyama's statements.
Damage3245 said:
SSJ3 Goku can't be over Buuhan in the manga; he was about to get obliterated by Buutenks and he underwent no Zenkai boosts or remarked on increasing in strength at all.
Click to expand...
I was only using them as counterparts, maybe a "/" instead of a "," would be better.
Damage3245 said:
Vegeta - who can sense Ki remember - implies that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu was as he is confident that he and Goku can take on Kid Buu.
Click to expand...
Vegeta was getting murdered from Kid Buu later lol. They were proved wrong, Kid Buu was also rejecting a Spirit Bomb that was >>>> all the other Z warriors if Goku wasn't receiving the last push.
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Bro just waited Topaz be banned to propose this

What are the arguments for Kid Buu being stronger than Buuhan in the manga?
Click to expand...
I imagine it’s the fact Kid Buu was retconned to have all the God Ki the Daikaioshin had, which negged Moro. Though, it doesn’t really matter because Super Buu has all of Kid Buu’s power, plus extra, due to being both Innocent and Kid Buu at once.
 
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