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Dragon Ball Ki Manipulation removal

Hypertornado099

Hypertornado099

1,196
382
Ki Manipulation (Aura)

The album does not prove social influencing and is incredibly misleading

Ki users can passively induce fear and insecurity into opponents that can sense their presence through the power of their auras, bigger when the user has malicious ki, forcing an sensation of being crushed and paralyzed
Click to expand...
Why is this ability worded like its a form of paralysis and fear manipulation? Its exaggerating what happens in the scan and making it seem more powerful than it should be

First scan: It may look like Raditz is "passively inducing fear and paralysis" but that's not what's happening. Piccolo senses his Ki and is scared, but not paralyzed. Piccolo only becomes paralyzed with fear after Raditz tanks his energy attack. Piccolo ***** his pants because Raditz is powerful and this has nothing to do with social influencing nor is it "passively inducing fear and a sensation of being paralyzed to opponents sensing their presence", just Piccolo being afraid of someone stronger than him. If Piccolo launched a ki attack at any character and they tanked it to the same degree, he'd be immobilized from the fear too. Moral of the story? Don't leave out pages and cherry pick scans

Second scan: Krillin is a coward

Third scan: Krillin is a coward

Fourth scan: Piccolo believing that Frieza and Goku's power alone can crush him is very obviously not something that proves ki gives a "sensation of being crushed". Piccolo is simply afraid of their great power and believes it is enough to beat him him. "Power" is not the same as aura and "crush" is another term for easily defeating someone

Fifth scan: Yamcha being afraid of people more powerful than him and not wanting to get closer has more to do with Yamcha being cautious and less "social influencing"

The last scan shows Piccolo being afraid after sensing someone else's ki, but the same applies, scaring someone who is afraid of massive power levels is not social influencing. If anything, it would be a weakness for Piccolo
 
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Strongly agree, it shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Ki doesn't cause feelings of fear by its own property, it's a result of other characters' ability to feel and quantify it, it happens all the time in DB with characters who are unable to perceive ki and thus underestimate the opponent.

It's not different from us being paralyzed in fear in front of a wild beast or any other danger, it's a natural response of the human system, not some inherent ability.
 
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SamanPatou said:
Strongly agree, it shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Ki doesn't cause feelings of fear by its own property, it's a result of other characters' ability to feel and quantify it, it happens all the time in DB with characters who are unable to perceive ki and thus underestimate the opponent.

It's not different from us being paralyzed in fear in front of a wild beast or any other danger, it's a natural response of the human system, not some inherent ability.
Click to expand...
But is it kind of already told like that?

That's why it is only listed as social influence and not manipulation of fear and paralysis.

It should only be reformulated because that specific part does not agree with how it is in the domain.

In domain it is like this.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, scaring someone with your power was considered social influence, unless some rule changed.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
snip
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Well, I'd say that it's kinda pointless then, because we can give social influencing to everyone simply because it happens passively acrossing all lifeforms. I can be bulky, grumpy and scary and affect someone who looks at me without even meaning to do so.
Every single character or object should then be given Social Influencing because they can induce feelings of uneasyness to fear in someone who deems them dangerous, even without direct relation to their power, simply by existing or for an infinity of factors.

Social Influencing should imply a direct activity or some other specific property on the character's side, not basic effects that naturally occur in real life.
 
SamanPatou said:
Well, I'd say that it's kinda pointless then, because we can give social influencing to everyone simply because it happens passively acrossing all lifeforms. I can be bulky, grumpy and scary and affect someone who looks at me without even meaning to do so.
Every single character or object should then be given Social Influencing because they can induce feelings of uneasyness to fear in someone who deems them dangerous, even without direct relation to their power, simply by existing or for an infinity of factors.

Social Influencing should imply a direct activity or some other specific property on the character's side, not basic effects that naturally occur in real life.
Click to expand...
But the page is basically something like this? Like, we have this written on the page for example.
Social Position and Reputation: Characters who possess a high level of position in society or are heavily respected in their setting, which allows them to control an individual or a group of people. In cases where a character in question with high position or reputation is being used by another person behind the shadows, the character doesn't qualify for having this kind of influencing.

Click to expand...
Instigating Fear: Characters who can in some way or the other, instigate fear and affect thinking or confidence of another person in their verse. The ways the characters use may include usage of position or a reputation in their verse, having an appearance or a certain feature in their appearance which other characters in the verse perceive as creepy or scary and easily scared by it or driving other characters into situations where they are set to feel fear, etc.
Click to expand...

The first example is basically something from real life. I don't think anyone would be normal when they were around someone important.

One example of fear is having a scary appearance. So this example you gave would come into this.
I can be bulky, grumpy and scary and affect someone who looks at me without even meaning to do so.
Click to expand...

Another example on the page is simply blackmail. Another common thing in real life, someone annoying someone else.

So I really don't think it needs any special property outside of the natural in real life.
 
Mr. Satan is a special case because he does have a unique property, which is being extremely famous, more than anyone else in his homeworld.
The second I admit is weirder and I never totally agreed with the SI rework, but I believe what causes intimidation should be either an active form of manipulation or a very unique property.
Real life shows us that we can be scared of bugs that would be totally harmless, a dog or a rat that we could kick away can intimidate us, a lion would, or even just a person minding his business but happening in the wrong moment before the wrong before, say being scared of a man in the dark simply because of your person and the situation.
Sociology has proved time and time again that literally everything and everyone influences us in some away, even regarding forms of fear and anxiety not related to physical danger. Studies in psychology have proved that the presence of a gun or a weapon lying on a table causes authomatic unnerving in people. Animals can be scared of manmade things for their inability to comprehend them, such as mirrors.
I could cite a million more examples and we would end up removing the ability altogether because we would end up having to give it to every single page we have.
 
I agree with removing it, though you should probably outline what profiles still need social influencing in them
 
SamanPatou said:
The second I admit is weirder and I never totally agreed with the SI rework, but I believe what causes intimidation should be either an active form of manipulation or a very unique property.
Click to expand...
Even if you don't agree, this is how it is on the page.

If someone who causes fear in others through their reputation or appearance is social influence, I don't know how causing fear in someone with high power wouldn't be.
 
SamanPatou said:
Real life shows us that we can be scared of bugs that would be totally harmless, a dog or a rat that we could kick away can intimidate us, a lion would, or even just a person minding his business but happening in the wrong moment before the wrong before, say being scared of a man in the dark simply because of your person and the situation.
Click to expand...
Unbelievably, I think that a cockroach would have social influence in the way it is written on the power page.
having an appearance or a certain feature in their appearance which other characters in the verse perceive as creepy or scary and easily scared by it or driving other characters into situations where they are set to feel fear, etc.
Click to expand...
 
Well, that is clearly something that passed overheads during the revision, I'll make sure to correct it (with a CRT obvs), otherwise I could find at least 10 ways to give social influencing even to a motionless stick.
 
The funniest thing about wiki standards is disagreeing theirs, honestly, this thing about patterns changing every time we gain an ultimate ability changes is getting boring.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Fourth scan: Piccolo believing that Frieza and Goku's power alone can crush him is very obviously not something that proves ki gives a "sensation of being crushed". Piccolo is simply afraid of their great power and believes it is enough to beat him him. "Power" is not the same as aura and "crush" is another term for easily defeating someone
Click to expand...
I can get behind all your scans, but this is bullshit. He is talking about the size of their power crushing him, it makes NO narrative sense storywise for Piccolo to state that "Their power alone could crush him" in a sense that they could beat him. That's OBVIOUS. We already know that as audience, this concept has already been introduced to us SEVERAL CHAPTERS AGO. This scan states that their power alone can crush him, what do you think he meant by their power "alone"? As if it was opposed by some other method? No, Piccolo is saying the pressure of their power alone could crush him.

I disagree with this specific point.
 
I agree with the first example being misleading, but the other scans aren’t they clear examples of them getting scared by a larger ki?
SamanPatou said:
Well, that is clearly something that passed overheads during the revision, I'll make sure to correct it (with a CRT obvs), otherwise I could find at least 10 ways to give social influencing even to a motionless stick.
Click to expand...
If you disagree with how SI is treated shouldn’t you make a crt first fixing that? Looking scary is literally one of the examples of instigating fear for SI on the page.
 
Alsotime said:
I agree with the op, and I also feel like most of the opposition in the thread like this.


Only really exist because fans of the verse don’t want an ability removed from the profiles, despite it being clear that the way it is presented is disingenuous to the way it actually works
Click to expand...
No, I’m genuinely curious on how this isn’t social influencing. The best I can find is that a staff member isn’t fine with how it currently works. I don’t really care about that, I’m referring to social influencing with its current standards. If an ability truly does not belong then I don’t want it to stay. I wouldn’t want inaccurate abilities/stats either. It’s pretty disingenuous to assume that all of us don’t want an ability removed for the sake of it not being removed when I’m asking questions.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, it's not so much fear manipulation hax. It's not a magic spell that simply causes people to be afraid. It's just people may or may not naturally be afraid of those whose PL's reach the level or surpass their own.
Click to expand...
But it is not Fear manipulation that is being discussed, it is social influence.

Why are mods thinking that fear and paralysis manipulation is being removed when that doesn't even exist on the page?

The last part of your sentence shows the social influence of fear.

Again, we are talking about social influence not supernatural or magical power of fear.

I don't even know why you mentioned magic spells when what is being discussed is social influence;
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
No, I’m genuinely curious on how this isn’t social influencing. The best I can find is that a staff member isn’t fine with how it currently works. I don’t really care about that, I’m referring to social influencing with its current standards. If an ability truly does not belong then I don’t want it to stay. I wouldn’t want inaccurate abilities/stats either. It’s pretty disingenuous to assume that all of us don’t want an ability removed for the sake of it not being removed when I’m asking questions.
Click to expand...
DDM for example makes it seem like he thinks what is being removed is fear manipulation done supernaturally/magically when what is being discussed is social influence.

Instilling fear in someone through power, which is what he literally mentions.
It's just people may or may not naturally be afraid of those whose PL's reach the level or surpass their own.
Click to expand...
 
It can stay on the profile, it'd just literally have no effect. Maybe clarify that the social influencing can only take place when someone is able to sense the power of another?
 
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